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abolishing unilateral no-fault divorce by initiative?

This means, if an initiative to abolish unilateral no-fault divorce is voted across sexual lines (all men vote yes, all women vote no), it should not pass. However, in any given area, there are some female sympathizers with the men who suffer under the feminist agenda. If you want to divorce your husband just because you don't like to look at his face, anymore, you shouldn't be allowed to take half his assets without taking any of his debts, therefore, slashing his net worth by a tremendous amount. There are some women out there who agree that that's wrong.

I think that your assumption that men would unilaterally support the abolition no-fault divorce because they have penises, and women would unilaterally be opposed to the abolition of no-fault divorces is ****ing ridiculous.

In my experience, men are MUCH more likely to engage in infidelity and thus, destroy their marriage and/or family, than are women. Furthermore, divorced single mothers are much more likely to live under the poverty level than the average divorced father. Women suffer more, economically speaking, from divorce than do men. Your assumptions on this topic are utterly stupid. And, sexist, to boot.
 
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In most cases both spouses are good people who have done nothing wrong except marrying to someone they are not compatible with.

In my experience, I have seen very few divorces in which both spouses were not guilty of mistreating the other, and none in which both parties were blameless. This ideal of "compatibility" is an excuse for people who are too selfish and/or irresponsible to uphold their moral obligations to one another.

Actually forcing adults who has done nothing wrong except marrying the wrong one to take therapy is way too totalitarian for my taste.

They entered into a sworn oath with each other and with the State. The least they can do is actually try to make it work before abandoning it.

What you are proposing is to force families to live in love-less homes which will harm everyone, especially the children.

The problem with your argument, and with our entire culture of casual marriage and divorce, is that you think "love" is merely some ephemeral emotion that people feel when they get married, and then simply goes away on its own. Love is more than just a passing feeling, it is both the motivation and the result of people behaving in a loving fashion to one another-- something which spouses have a sworn moral obligation to do.
 
Does this mean the state can dissolve marriages when it is harmful to others, despite what the married couple decides?

Yes.

If you find your true love and marry...only to later discover you married your blood sister and couldn't have known since you were both adopted out at birth...the state will dissolve the license immediately.

The same is true if either party married while underage, etc.

I know there are real life examples of this happening, but a quick prayer to the church of Google didn't yield anything useful in the first couple pages. If you would like I'll keep looking for such examples, as I may need to use different search terms.

Yes, but that still doesn't demand that the parents have to be married in order to provide stable, intact homes to their children.

That's a separate issue. We're talking about married couples with problems.

Indeed, the parents being forced to remain in a marriage that one or both have no desire to be in could be the cause of instability in a home, and thus a divorce could actually benefit everybody involved in the family.

Divorce is only acceptable when it is the only way to reduce conflict.

You are using divorce as the very first attempt to address a problem.

The most common reason for divorce is fighting about money problems. It therefore follows that a given couple be given comprehensive assistance in resolving their economic standing before a divorce proceeding is allowed.

Surly you and I can agree that a couple who can resolve their problems and remain married is better for society than a couple who divorces, never learns how to improve their lives and create stressed out children for the rest of us to live with.

I think the state should have no reason to give a **** about people's relationships even when they do have children.

Well, they do, and not just because they want to stick their noes in your business, but supporting couples raising children produces better people. It lowers the juvenile crime rate, the teen pregnancy rate, the teen abortion rate, the high school drop out rate and the adult crime rate, while increasing collage graduate rate and the resulting economic growth.
 
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The worst thing to do during a divorce is to start the blame game. This can cause red hot hostility that will most definitely harm the children. In most cases both spouses are good people who have done nothing wrong except marrying to someone they are not compatible with.

This is exactly why it should be hard to get a marriage license.

An applying couple should have to successfully complete a personal finance course and in-depth pre-marital counseling.

Relationship issues are not something you can simply fix like a leaky roof. In some cases the best solution to the differences between the spouses is to leave each other so they don't make each other and thus their children unhappy.

Actually forcing adults who has done nothing wrong except marrying the wrong one to take therapy is way too totalitarian for my taste.

That's assuming the adults have don nothing else wrong.

The leading cause for divorce in the US is fighting over money problems, not simply having married the wrong person. It therefore follows that a couple considering divorce have to complete personal finance counseling which targets their specific situation and works towards clearly defined goals.

Some...underline "some" a hounded times...some couples will still fall apart. That's life. Most of the problems in a marriage can be resolved. Obviously there are exceptions, but as those exceptions will withstand a harder divorce process, they are no reason to give up on all the marriages which can be saved.

Sometimes the disaster that was the marriage can make the divorce a relief for everyone involved.

Well again, there's your "sometimes" qualifier. Yes there are always exceptions to every rule, but they only serve to prove the rule.

A child don't need a traditional nuclear family taken out of a Norman Rockwell picture to grow up happy. What a child needs is love, guidance and protection and a parent that is forced to live with someone they are incompatible with don't have the necessary emotional resources to provide that.

Which is exactly why the pre-marital counseling should help the couple realize if they acutely are a viable pair, and the pre-divorce counseling help resolve the problems.

Of course the best thing would be if all children grew up in loving homes with both parents but the world don't work that way as not all parents love each other. What you are proposing is to force families to live in love-less homes which will harm everyone, especially the children.

I'm proposing a system which helps establish clear channels of real love from the start and to help remove the things which block that love.

I don't know how far your totalitarian tendencies go....

Oh a personal attack, how original :roll: I spare myself the rest of your post.
 
Yes.

If you find your true love and marry...only to later discover you married your blood sister and couldn't have known since you were both adopted out at birth...the state will dissolve the license immediately.

The same is true if either party married while underage, etc.

I know there are real life examples of this happening, but a quick prayer to the church of Google didn't yield anything useful in the first couple pages. If you would like I'll keep looking for such examples, as I may need to use different search terms.

Well, you like for the state to be more involved in people's personal lives than I do. I understand it, but I do not agree with it.

That's a separate issue. We're talking about married couples with problems.

It's not a separate issue. Your statement is that a married couple provides a more stable household than a divorced couple, and so divorces should be made more difficult to attain. However, if that was the case, why don't we force a man and a woman who have children together to marry?

Divorce is only acceptable when it is the only way to reduce conflict.

You are using divorce as the very first attempt to address a problem.

Nowhere in this thread or elsewhere on this forum will you find a post saying that I think divorce should be the very first attempt to address a problem. What I am saying is that the state has no right to prohibit a divorce for any reason.

The most common reason for divorce is fighting about money problems. It therefore follows that a given couple be given comprehensive assistance in resolving their economic standing before a divorce proceeding is allowed.

So we should give welfare to married couples with kids so they don't divorce? Or we should have government-sponsored financial advisers so couples don't get divorced? Personally, I want my tax dollars to go to other things and let people live their lives how they want rather than pay for the government to tell people how to live it.

Surly you and I can agree that a couple who can resolve their problems and remain married is better for society than a couple who divorces, never learns how to improve their lives and create stressed out children for the rest of us to live with.

Yes, you and I can agree that a couple being able to resolve their problems and remain married is better for society. However, I believe that not all couples should stayed married and it is not up to the state to decide when a person in a marriage should dissolve it and on what basis it should be dissolved. I don't think the state should be involved in that.

Well, they do, and not just because they want to stick their noes in your business, but supporting couples raising children produces better people. It lowers the juvenile crime rate, the teen pregnancy rate, the teen abortion rate, the high school drop out rate and the adult crime rate, while increasing collage graduate rate and the resulting economic growth.

Well, you have more faith in the government protecting our children than I do.

DCF Spokesman Arrested On Child Porn Charges - Jacksonville News Story - WJXT Jacksonville

Lost kids easily found: Newspaper turns up nine of DCF's missing children. - South Florida Sun-Sentinel (Fort Lauderdale, FL) | HighBeam Research - FREE trial

MassOutrage | Why Can the State Kidnap Your Child?
 
Well, you like for the state to be more involved in people's personal lives than I do. I understand it, but I do not agree with it.

Right...see this site is all about discussing those disagreements, not merely stating that we have them.

It's not a separate issue. Your statement is that a married couple provides a more stable household than a divorced couple, and so divorces should be made more difficult to attain. However, if that was the case, why don't we force a man and a woman who have children together to marry?

Unmarried couple =/= divorced couple because the unmarried couple are still living together and young children wouldn't know any difference. Therefore it is a separate issue.

Nowhere in this thread or elsewhere on this forum will you find a post saying that I think divorce should be the very first attempt to address a problem.

Then you don't mind the state requiring you to put other problem solving steps before divorce.

What I am saying is that the state has no right to prohibit a divorce for any reason.

The state is not denying the divorce, the state is requiring you to do a few things before the divorce is granted in the hopes that you will not want to divorce.

So we should give welfare to married couples with kids so they don't divorce?

I'd rather give them couple job training and financial education.

Or we should have government-sponsored financial advisers so couples don't get divorced?

Sure, I'd pay more taxes for that.

Personally, I want my tax dollars to go to other things and let people live their lives how they want rather than pay for the government to tell people how to live it.

Well I haven't supported any such "government telling people how to live their lives", so you should redirect that comment to whomever presented such an opinion.

Just like sex-ed, I would support the government having a basic course with the alternative of taking a voucher to an authorized private source of your choice.

Yes, you and I can agree that a couple being able to resolve their problems and remain married is better for society. However, I believe that not all couples should stayed married and it is not up to the state to decide when a person in a marriage should dissolve it and on what basis it should be dissolved. I don't think the state should be involved in that.

If you don't want the state to be involved, don't apply for a marriage license.


My solution to addressing the leading cause for divorce, being fights over money problems, is for the government to pay for you to go through this:

Financial Peace University - daveramsey.com

The government doesn't do your job, the government forces you to learn how to do your job yourself, and how to thrive at it.
 
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Unmarried couple =/= divorced couple because the unmarried couple are still living together and young children wouldn't know any difference. Therefore it is a separate issue.

So does that mean that if we have a married couple and one of the parents die, we should forced the widow/widower to marry so the young children won't notice the difference in a loss of a parent? Also, it is not granted that an unmarried couple are living together. It is not granted that two parents are even still a couple. Therefore, it is an issue because you're using the state to try to regulate the relationship that a mother and father have together that is unrelated to their relationship with their children for the supposed benefit of the children.

Then you don't mind the state requiring you to put other problem solving steps before divorce.

Yes, I do mind, because I don't think the state should get involved in my relationships with other people.

The state is not denying the divorce, the state is requiring you to do a few things before the divorce is granted in the hopes that you will not want to divorce.

I don't think that's the place of the state. I don't think that there is an inherent good in hoping that people will not divorce.

I'd rather give them couple job training and financial education.

I'd rather we give all people job training and financial education, not just people who want to divorce from each other.

Sure, I'd pay more taxes for that.

Okay.

Well I haven't supported any such "government telling people how to live their lives", so you should redirect that comment to whomever presented such an opinion.

Yes you have. You've said to a person wanting to get a divorce that the government shouldn't grant that divorce until they meet some qualifiers. That is the government telling them they cannot get a divorce when they choose when they want one. That's the government telling someone how to live their life.

Just like sex-ed, I would support the government having a basic course with the alternative of taking a voucher to an authorized private source of your choice.

Okay.

If you don't want the state to be involved, don't apply for a marriage license.

Or we can get the state out marriages and have it be solely a religious or ceremonial institution rather than a legal institution as well.

My solution to addressing the leading cause for divorce, being fights over money problems, is for the government to pay for you to go through this:

Financial Peace University - daveramsey.com

The government doesn't do your job, the government forces you to learn how to do your job yourself, and how to thrive at it.

Well, that's a lot better than what DCF is currently doing, I'll grant you that.
 
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Changing my name is trolling. If you want to continue this conversation you will have to correct your quote boxes before I reply.
 
Changing my name is trolling. If you want to continue this conversation you will have to correct your quote boxes before I reply.

Oh ****. Sorry, that was an honest mistake.
 
I think it's none of the government's business. The govt shouldn't be involved in marriage at all.

But I guess if they do abolish it, then people know that going into the contract. They know they're going to have a hard time breaking that contract. So, we'd have fewer people getting married to begin with. Not a big deal. And, abolishing no-fault divorce doesn't stop the married people from separating and living separate lives with other people. So, the govt forces them to keep the legal contract, they can't force them to actually stay in a relationship together.
 
So does that mean that if we have a married couple and one of the parents die, we should forced the widow/widower to marry so the young children won't notice the difference in a loss of a parent?

Of course not. In fact I would support a ban on people marrying anyone other than the biological/adoptive parent of their minor children for as long as either party has minor children.

The leading cause for divorce of second marriages is stress caused by stepparent/stepchild conflict, especially in the teen years.

Also, it is not granted that an unmarried couple are living together.

If they're not married, then they don't ever need to file for divorce and are thus not whom we're talking about.

It is not granted that two parents are even still a couple.

If they're married, they are by definition still a couple.

If they are not a couple, they are not married and do not deed to file for a divorce, thuse are not whom we're talking about.


Therefore, it is an issue because you're using the state to try to regulate the relationship that a mother and father have together that is unrelated to their relationship with their children for the supposed benefit of the children.

Of course it's related, it's directly related on an intimate level.

Yes, I do mind, because I don't think the state should get involved in my relationships with other people.

See that position isn't usful because marriage isn't going away. I look for real answers and you haven't even argued how removing the government would solve any of the problems I've shown concern about.

I don't think that's the place of the state. I don't think that there is an inherent good in hoping that people will not divorce.

The benefits of an intact home are an inherent good to everyone.

Yes you have. You've said to a person wanting to get a divorce that the government shouldn't grant that divorce until they meet some qualifiers. That is the government telling them they cannot get a divorce when they choose when they want one. That's the government telling someone how to live their life.

Well I can see your point here. The government is forcing them against their will to learn to deal with their problems like independent adults and how to thrive in a world of personal freedom

I guess I just can't sympathize with people who refuse to grow up.

Or we can get the state out marriages and have it be solely a religious or ceremonial institution rather than a legal institution as well.

See i wish you would have told me you were one of those people, I wouldn't have wasted my time.

The legal institution of marriage is not going away, so there's no point in arguing that it should. I'm only interested in real solutions.
 
I see that no one has addressed the practicability of the proposition to force people to stay together "for the children".

By denying someone a divorce you don't make them stay together. Being married is not the same thing as living together and sharing a household together.

What exactly will force the couples that some people think should be forced to stay married to actually live together? I hear no one proposing a feudalesque situation of having the state deciding where people can live.

What I think will happen if people are denied a divorce is that they are going to leave each other no matter what. If they can't stand each other they will move into separate apartments no matter what the paperwork on their marriage says. They will be married in a legal sense only, which is going to cause trouble for everyone regarding finances, new relationships etc. while providing none of the assumed bonuses of staying together "for the children".

No matter what you think of a model of forced marriage like the one proposed it will never work in real life.
 
Marriage and divorce should be as fluid as possible. If two consenting adults want to get into a contract of marriage then there shouldn't be all of these hoops to jump through. The government is already too involved in the marriage process. If a couple is strong their marriage will last; if they aren't and it falls apart, then oh well. That's life.

I find it interesting that some people who are against same sex marriage and government redefinement of marriage would simultaneously be okay with arbitrary requirements and obstacles to the process, all based on that which is in alignment with their personal values.
 
This is exactly why it should be hard to get a marriage license.

An applying couple should have to successfully complete a personal finance course and in-depth pre-marital counseling.

Like you I also think it should be harder to get married. Not nearly impossible, which will only lead to people living together in paperless relationships which will cause a lot of trouble regarding inheritance, finances and so on.

But I am all in favour of making sure that people has thought the idea through before they are allowed to marry.

That's assuming the adults have don nothing else wrong.

The leading cause for divorce in the US is fighting over money problems, not simply having married the wrong person. It therefore follows that a couple considering divorce have to complete personal finance counseling which targets their specific situation and works towards clearly defined goals.

I am all in favour of offering financial counselling to people whose economy has gone south. Whether they are married or not. It is a social problem when people become debt-ridden and have rotten finances. A lot of trouble for debtors and creditors alike can be solved by offering financial counselling.

But it should be an offer, not a requirement. In some divorces finances is only a minor issue and forcing people to go through financial counselling will be redundant. I don't think the state is smart enough to know where financial counselling is needed. I prefer that to be left to people to decide for themselves.

Some...underline "some" a hounded times...some couples will still fall apart. That's life. Most of the problems in a marriage can be resolved. Obviously there are exceptions, but as those exceptions will withstand a harder divorce process, they are no reason to give up on all the marriages which can be saved.

I'm all in favour of counselling and in favour of making it a public offer for people. A lot of issues can indeed be solved if people are willing to work them out.

But again I think it should be an offer only. On principle I am against the idea of forcing people to do something for their own good. Also therapy only works if people are willing to work on it. I am afraid compulsory marriage counselling will be a waste of time for everyone involved if people don't do it voluntary. It will just be throwing money into a black hole.

Well again, there's your "sometimes" qualifier. Yes there are always exceptions to every rule, but they only serve to prove the rule.

Unfortunately there are lots of abusive spouses around. That seems to be the way the world works. The abuse can not always be proven and forcing a battered woman to relive the abuse in a courtroom in order to prove that the husband is at fault will only cause more emotional stress to her. If she can just get a divorce by applying for one she can get out of the relationship quicker.

Forcing such a couple to stay together will only make the state an accessory to the abuse.

Which is exactly why the pre-marital counseling should help the couple realize if they acutely are a viable pair, and the pre-divorce counseling help resolve the problems.

I'm proposing a system which helps establish clear channels of real love from the start and to help remove the things which block that love.

That is all fine with me and I support it as long as it is voluntary.

Oh a personal attack, how original :roll: I spare myself the rest of your post.

Having the state deciding that you cannot end a personal relationship seems pretty totalitarian to me...
 
''Unmarried couples have children all the time right now, and those children get taken care of just fine.''

Well yes, people are always taken care of adequately in civilized countries. If parents cant take care of the children the state will. But, that is beside the point, because it shouldnt have to come to a single mother struggling financially, when a couple has enough money for more.



''The same could be asked of men who make naive agreements. Life is uncertain sometimes, and people need to be more careful how they live it. ''

Mothers and children are vulnerable, and laws should protect the vulnerable. As for married women witn no children, the money a couple has while they are married belongs to both of them, so some kind of financial agreement has to be made on divorce to take this into account. There once was a suggestion that men should pay their wives for the housekeeping they do, but neither women nor men agreed to this. So, it comes down to having to separate the shared finances after divorce, because many think of marriage in terms of sharing rather than dividing.



''The worst thing to do during a divorce is to start the blame game.''

Id say this is the main problem, when it comes to divorce. It is not the separating which is expensive. It is the conflict leading to expensive lawyers and court cases which costs, money that should be spent on setting up separate lives for the members of the couple and for looking after the kids.



What if, would be a good exercise for all couples to practice in times of peace, when they are getting along. If they said, what if we were to get divorced now, how would we manage the finances and childcare. Who would live where, who would look after the children and for what percentage of the time, what will be put by for the childrens education, how much money would each member of the couple get and how would it be given... If they did this on a regular basis while there is no conflict, then they likely could by pass the expense of lawyers and courts when a major conflict arrises. I think many couples have enough money to live separately, if they put some thought into how it would be done.



''Maybe we should require couples to take out "divorce insurance" that they pay into and then can take funds from in case they ever divorce to help offset that.''

That would certainly suit some people, because many live on the edge financially these days, so need insurance to cover all risks. It would however increase the costs and complications of living. I think, that is certainly what we need less of.



''I would say something along the lines of, "Well, let's implement a government program that pays mothers for raising children." However, that would lead to more welfare mothers who does nothing but breed more children we don't need. ''

Maybe it wouldnt lead to more welfare mothers. As jobs go, parenting is one of the most wearing, and freedom sapping. I would only do it for love. A price tag simply cant be put on what I am willing to do for my daughter. I presume it is the same for most parents, despite the accusations that are carelessly and frequently thrown around about parents. But, I do agree that it would be a good thing, to have basic financial security for mothers. Financial stress is the last thing a pregnant women, or a woman with a baby or toddler needs, or any mother for that matter.



There was a contravertical suggestion a while ago. I forget which country it was in. Basically, somebody suggested that everybody should get a basic allowance and not just mothers, and then if people want more they can work. Maybe this would work, because there are rarely enough jobs available for all those who want them, these days anyway.
 
Like you I also think it should be harder to get married. Not nearly impossible, which will only lead to people living together in paperless relationships which will cause a lot of trouble regarding inheritance, finances and so on.

But I am all in favour of making sure that people has thought the idea through before they are allowed to marry.



I am all in favour of offering financial counselling to people whose economy has gone south. Whether they are married or not. It is a social problem when people become debt-ridden and have rotten finances. A lot of trouble for debtors and creditors alike can be solved by offering financial counselling.

But it should be an offer, not a requirement. In some divorces finances is only a minor issue and forcing people to go through financial counselling will be redundant. I don't think the state is smart enough to know where financial counselling is needed. I prefer that to be left to people to decide for themselves.



I'm all in favour of counselling and in favour of making it a public offer for people. A lot of issues can indeed be solved if people are willing to work them out.

But again I think it should be an offer only. On principle I am against the idea of forcing people to do something for their own good. Also therapy only works if people are willing to work on it. I am afraid compulsory marriage counselling will be a waste of time for everyone involved if people don't do it voluntary. It will just be throwing money into a black hole.



Unfortunately there are lots of abusive spouses around. That seems to be the way the world works. The abuse can not always be proven and forcing a battered woman to relive the abuse in a courtroom in order to prove that the husband is at fault will only cause more emotional stress to her. If she can just get a divorce by applying for one she can get out of the relationship quicker.

Forcing such a couple to stay together will only make the state an accessory to the abuse.



That is all fine with me and I support it as long as it is voluntary.



Having the state deciding that you cannot end a personal relationship seems pretty totalitarian to me...

If you're offering better solutions to the divorce rate, I'm not seeing them in your posts.
 
If you're offering better solutions to the divorce rate, I'm not seeing them in your posts.

Actually I do. I think voluntary counselling would be a good idea as well as making it harder to get married in the first place.
 
I see that no one has addressed the practicability of the proposition to force people to stay together "for the children".

By denying someone a divorce you don't make them stay together. Being married is not the same thing as living together and sharing a household together.

What exactly will force the couples that some people think should be forced to stay married to actually live together? I hear no one proposing a feudalesque situation of having the state deciding where people can live.

What I think will happen if people are denied a divorce is that they are going to leave each other no matter what. If they can't stand each other they will move into separate apartments no matter what the paperwork on their marriage says. They will be married in a legal sense only, which is going to cause trouble for everyone regarding finances, new relationships etc. while providing none of the assumed bonuses of staying together "for the children".

No matter what you think of a model of forced marriage like the one proposed it will never work in real life.

I guess I don't understand why you jump on the "force them to stay together" bandwagon. Every time someone want to make something harder one of you people jump in throwing around "forced" this and "forced" that.

"Forced" is your word, and does not accurately describe anything I've argued.

No one forces you to get married, no one stops you either. No one forces you to get a divorce, no one stops you either.

My argument addresses the causes for divorce in an attempt to remedy those problems. I have never advocated forcing people to stay together if they are dead set on separating. I have several times said as much but you ignore it.

I'm interested in finding solutions to problems. If you aren't, that's fine, no one said you had to, but that means we have nothing to discuss together.
 
Actually I do. I think voluntary counselling would be a good idea as well as making it harder to get married in the first place.

Making it harder for people to marry is identical to making it harder for them to divorce.

If making divorce harder to get = "forcing them to stay together", then making it harder for them to marry = "forcing them to stay apart". It a hypocritical argument.

If one is wrong, both are wrong. If one is right, both are right.

Voluntarily counseling doesn't work because it's voluntarily. The fights over money are proof that the couple can't solve their problems on their own and need help. So, before we allow them to harm the rest of us with a divorce, we need to assist them in overcoming their problems.
 
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