Abolish ICE

[AZRWinger]

No.

Unless one believes in totally open borders and no immigration laws at all, then we need someone to enforce them.

I'm all for more legal immigration. I'm all for giving amnesty to some (but not all) of the illegal immigrants already here, coupled with securing the border so that we don't need to do it again in 20 years.

But we still need an agency to enforce the law. Anyone who believes in lawlessness - whether it's leftists who want to defund ICE and gaslight that there's no a border problem at all, or MAGA hats who want to ignore due process when deporting people - is not going to have a lasting policy impact on the country. We need a sustainable immigration regime that upholds the law, rather than oscillating between two forms of lawlessness every four years.

Ignore due process? Abrego Garcia had multiple hearings and appeals represented by counsel in immigration court. Of course braying about so-called due process ignores the facts.

The real lawlessness is sanctuary Democrat jurisdictions undermining the law.

 

[Gatsby]

Ignore due process? Abrego Garcia had multiple hearings and appeals represented by counsel in immigration court. Of course braying about so-called due process ignores the facts.

The courts specifically said he could not be deported to El Salvador and Trump defied them, then refused to fix it. Lawlessness.

Also, I'm not sure why you brought up this one specific case when I didn't mention it. But I'm talking about the broader problem of Trump trying to deport people without due process.

 

[j brown's body]

Is your position that we should stop doing all immigration and customs enforcement? Or merely that the agency needs to change its name, shuffle some personnel from Office A to Office B, and rebrand itself?

I'd like to see ICE focus on national security threats, which I believe is their purpose.

 

[Gatsby]

I'd like to see ICE focus on national security threats, which I believe is their purpose.

Their purpose is to do immigration and customs enforcement.

 

[Gatsby]

Don't abolish ICE. We should enforce immigration laws and expand legal immigration. Also we need an immigration regime that is sustainable, expansive, meritocratic, acceptable to 60-70% of the population, and doesn't oscillate between two forms of lawlessness depending on who gets elected president.

Gatsby's Immigration Reform Plan:
We should be growing our population by about 1% per year through net immigration (and ideally about 1.5-2.0% including net immigration and net births). This would mean 3.3 million green cards per year, roughly triple the current amount. I propose a breakdown like this:

• 500K immediate family green cards.
• 100K refugees/asylees, with refugees preferred over asylees.
• 500K high school graduate workers, and their families.
• 2.2M four-year university graduate workers, and their families.

In addition to these top-line numbers, I propose the following changes:

• Crack down on illegal immigration. Fund tighter border security, make eVerify mandatory, and make it a tax crime to deduct illegal immigrant labor costs as a business expense.
• Tighten up asylum rules since the system has been abused so much. Basically, don't let anyone claim asylum except Cubans, Haitians, and people who were already legally here when their asylum need arose, with possible rare exceptions.
• End chain migration: Stop accepting new applications for extended family green cards, and clear the backlog of these by allowing an additional 300K extended family green cards until the backlog is cleared. (Deduct these from the worker green cards.)
• Eliminate the 7% per-country cap, which discriminates against high-volume countries like Mexico and India.
• Eliminate the diversity lottery, which previously awarded 40K green cards to random people. Instead, just commit to accepting at least the 200 best applicants from each of the 200 countries through any of the four channels above. That will give us some diversity while still being mostly meritocratic.
• Offer some regional green cards, where college graduate workers are assigned to a specific metro area to live and work (unless the state's governor opts out). This could help revitalize some downscale regions of the country and give them a much-needed economic boost.

 

[j brown's body]

Their purpose is to do immigration and customs enforcement.

As it relates to national security threats.

Obviously there was immigration and customs enforcement before ICE.

Interestingly, ICE was created as a response to 9/11. Yet the 9/11 hijackers were here legally.

I do not know everything ICE does, but it appears to me that they are used less for protecting us from those who are a threat and more for criminalizing of those who aren't.

 

[AZRWinger]

The courts specifically said he could not be deported to El Salvador and Trump defied them, then refused to fix it. Lawlessness.

The issue is the administrative error deporting an El Salvador citizen back to El Salvador. He had an outstanding order of deportation to any other country.

The President of El Salvador refuses to release Garcia. Garcia is being given treatment consistent with other El Salvadorean citizen gang members. The SCOTUS order was to facilitate Garcia’s return not to start a war to impose the court's will.

Also, I'm not sure why you brought up this one specific case when I didn't mention it. But I'm talking about the broader problem of Trump trying to deport people without due process.

A sweeping generalization indicting Trump for failing to provide undefined due process. No wonder you don’t want to discuss specifics.

 

[j brown's body]

Don't abolish ICE. We should enforce immigration laws and expand legal immigration. Also we need an immigration regime that is sustainable, expansive, meritocratic, acceptable to 60-70% of the population, and doesn't oscillate between two forms of lawlessness depending on who gets elected president.

Gatsby's Immigration Reform Plan:
We should be growing our population by about 1% per year through net immigration (and ideally about 1.5-2.0% including net immigration and net births). This would mean 3.3 million green cards per year, roughly triple the current amount. I propose a breakdown like this:

• 500K immediate family green cards.
• 100K refugees/asylees, with refugees preferred over asylees.
• 500K high school graduate workers, and their families.
• 2.2M four-year university graduate workers, and their families.

In addition to these top-line numbers, I propose the following changes:

• Crack down on illegal immigration. Fund tighter border security, make eVerify mandatory, and make it a tax crime to deduct illegal immigrant labor costs as a business expense.
• Tighten up asylum rules since the system has been abused so much. Basically, don't let anyone claim asylum except Cubans, Haitians, and people who were already legally here when their asylum need arose, with possible rare exceptions.
• End chain migration: Stop accepting new applications for extended family green cards, and clear the backlog of these by allowing an additional 300K extended family green cards until the backlog is cleared. (Deduct these from the worker green cards.)
• Eliminate the 7% per-country cap, which discriminates against high-volume countries like Mexico and India.
• Eliminate the diversity lottery, which previously awarded 40K green cards to random people. Instead, just commit to accepting at least the 200 best applicants from each of the 200 countries through any of the four channels above. That will give us some diversity while still being mostly meritocratic.
• Offer some regional green cards, where college graduate workers are assigned to a specific metro area to live and work (unless the state's governor opts out). This could help revitalize some downscale regions of the country and give them a much-needed economic boost.

Do you think we should deport the 12 million undocumented immigrants who are here?

 

[Gatsby]

The issue is the administrative error deporting an El Salvador citizen back to El Salvador. He had an outstanding order of deportation to any other country.

The President of El Salvador refuses to release Garcia. Garcia is being given treatment consistent with other El Salvadorean citizen gang members. The SCOTUS order was to facilitate Garcia’s return not to start a war to impose the court's will.

This might be more dubiously plausible if Trump wasn't going on social media bragging about it. He can't help himself. You don't even believe what you are saying, it's just a bad-faith argument. You have a good weekend.

 

[j brown's body]

The issue is the administrative error deporting an El Salvador citizen back to El Salvador. He had an outstanding order of deportation to any other country.

The President of El Salvador refuses to release Garcia. Garcia is being given treatment consistent with other El Salvadorean citizen gang members. The SCOTUS order was to facilitate Garcia’s return not to start a war to impose the court's will.

A sweeping generalization indicting Trump for failing to provide undefined due process. No wonder you don’t want to discuss specifics.

"To be clear, Mr. Abrego Garcia has never been charged with — let alone convicted of — being a member of the gang. But during his deportation proceedings, some evidence was introduced that he belonged to MS-13, and judges decided it was enough to keep him in custody while the matter was resolved.

But other judges have found the same evidence to be lacking."

Link

Indeed. The Trump administration once released him from custody and gave him a work permit. Some gang member!

 

[Gatsby]

Do you think we should deport the 12 million undocumented immigrants who are here?

No, I should add that to my plan. I'd support a partial amnesty for some (but not all) of the illegal immigrants already here, provided that it was combined with the border enforcement provisions so we don't need to do this again in 20 years. Maybe something like this:

Gatsby's Immigration Plan (continued)
Amnesty for those who can prove they have been physically present in America since December 31, 2022, AND who have not been convicted of any felonies, AND who can pass the standard background checks, AND they meet at least one of the following conditions:

• They were under 18 when they arrived.
• They are married to a US citizen or green card holder.
• They are the parent of an over-21 US citizen.
• They have a bachelor's degree.
• They served honorably in the US armed forces.
• They have been in America for more than ten years.

Under my plan, amnesty would allow them to live and work in America, and apply for green cards like any other applicants. But it would not be a path to citizenship itself, except through one of the other channels.

 

[j brown's body]

No, I should add that to my plan. I'd support a partial amnesty for some (but not all) of the illegal immigrants already here, provided that it was combined with the border enforcement provisions so we don't need to do this again in 20 years. Maybe something like this:

Gatsby's Immigration Plan (continued)
Amnesty for those who have been physically present in America since December 31, 2022, AND who have not been convicted of any felonies, AND who can pass the standard background checks, AND they meet at least one of the following conditions:

• They were under 18 when they arrived.
• They are married to a US citizen or green card holder.
• They are the parent of an over-21 US citizen.
• They have a Bachelor's degree.
• They served honorably in the US armed forces.
• They have been in America for more than ten years.

That probably covers quite a few of them, which is fine by me.

 

[cpwill]

Don't abolish ICE. We should enforce immigration laws and expand legal immigration. Also we need an immigration regime that is sustainable, expansive, meritocratic, acceptable to 60-70% of the population, and doesn't oscillate between two forms of lawlessness depending on who gets elected president.

Correct.

I get the sentiment behind those who want to abolish ICE. Watching some of what is happening (and being discussed) is infuriating. I'm a law and order guy, and even I admit to having wondered at what point violence against ICE was going to become a thing (and potentially justifiable).

But this version of "Defund The Police" gives folks nowhere in the middle to go, nowhere reasonable, nowhere that defends our laws while upholding our laws, and keeps our country legitimately protected in ways that we need ICE to do.

If Liberals will not enforce the law, people will eventually vote for Fascists to do it, instead.

 

[AZRWinger]

"To be clear, Mr. Abrego Garcia has never been charged with — let alone convicted of — being a member of the gang. But during his deportation proceedings, some evidence was introduced that he belonged to MS-13, and judges decided it was enough to keep him in custody while the matter was resolved.

But other judges have found the same evidence to be lacking."

Link

Indeed. The Trump administration once released him from custody and gave him a work permit. Some gang member!

Wow, the NYT article completely ignored the hearing where the judge determined Abrego Garcia a gang member while refusing his request for release. Garcia's taxpayer provided lawyer unsuccessfully appealed. The appeals judge didn't disturb the gang member determination.

You need to find another source that will not blatantly peddle propaganda like the NYT.

 

[AZRWinger]

This might be more dubiously plausible if Trump wasn't going on social media bragging about it. He can't help himself. You don't even believe what you are saying, it's just a bad-faith argument. You have a good weekend.

View attachment 67569236

The NYT prints a false headline, Garcia is an illegal alien gang member, not a Maryland dad. He's not coming back according to the President of El Salvador. You don't respect the sovereignty of El Salvador?

 

[trouble13]

ICE is decimating the Democrats voting base. Their funding should be increased.

 

[Gatsby]

The NYT prints a false headline, Garcia is an illegal alien gang member, not a Maryland dad. He's not coming back according to the President of El Salvador. You don't respect the sovereignty of El Salvador?

Have a great weekend!

 

[bomberfox]

No immigration controls at all?

No thanks.

We have police brutality. The answer is not to simply not have police. The idea of not tracking who is in the country and rendering ourselves completely incapable of removing anyone who really is a problem is absurdist.



But then, these are days when an awful lot of people think the stronger argument is the one that is stated in the most nuance-free extremist terms.

You aint going to reform this shit.Its over.

ICE are monsters who will glefully become the next death squads.

It must be abolished and replaced with something more interested in bettering humanity than tormenting immigrants.

We can help stabilize countries that people are fleeing from and finally require every business that can afford to pay be under the same minimum wage laws without exception. That way businesses cant exploit immigrants to undercut domestic workers.

 

[Felis Leo]

I would recommend not framing the choice to the voters that way, because I think you will not like their choice.

Well, at this point, that is the choice that voters are facing. It is up to the left to take the lead and change people's opinions on this subject, rather than constantly ceding ground to the right and letting them fill the void in the information space.

 

[Airyaman]

See that OAN microphone? Soon to be the news source for Voice of America.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Of course.

Why? 50 miles from the border isn't anywhere near the border.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Why wouldn't they? They aren't just ICE-for-border-towns.

Because why stop at 50 miles? Why not 75 miles? Why not from any port of entry? Why not covering the entire US? ICE has expanded its authority well beyond its mandate. It needs to be curbed.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

They often dont need to even identify themselves

They don't and they can sneakily arrest political opponents using the immigration process as an enticement.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

If the only choices are either the Gestapo or no police, there is only one moral choice

ICE is not the moral equivalent of the Nazi Gestapo. If you are here illegally and you are arrested by ICE you will be detained and deported. If you were Jewish or another minority and arrested by the Nazi Gestapo, you would either be tortured to death or sent to a death camp along with the rest of your family. If you had an infant child, they would be taken from you and tossed in the back of a flatbed truck where they were dumped into a mass grave and buried alive. Your older children would be taken from you and immediately taken to the gas chambers. If you were capable of work, your best hope would be to be worked to death or slowly starved.

As ****ed up as MAGA is and ICE is under their direction, they are still a long ways from horrors of Nazi Germany. Trump isn’t America’s Hitler, he is America’s Juan Peron.

 

[Josie]

Because why stop at 50 miles? Why not 75 miles? Why not from any port of entry? Why not covering the entire US? ICE has expanded its authority well beyond its mandate. It needs to be curbed.

What are you even talking about? They DO cover the entire US. They're a federal agency. Why do you think they only cover border towns?