(ABC News) Trump says ceasefire negotiations between just Russia and Ukraine to start 'immediately'

[Chomsky]

That's because the WH censors the crazy word salads from his speeches, pressers, read-outs and sane wash it.

Even uncensored, it's nonsense. Like a drunk in a bar, I swear.

 

[Chomsky]

Folks are so clouded by hostility to Trump that they cannot see that progress is actually being made towards some kind of resolution. Both sides have a ton of issues that they have not presented to each other in three years. The meetings and contacts so far are not useless as some appear to believe. Like Vietnam, or Korea, or even Afghanistan, stuff like this takes months. One thing is certain is nothing is gained by not bringing the parties to the table.

Zelensky has ordered creation of permanent negotiating team

Zelensky orders creation of permanent negotiating group

Following the first meeting between the warring parties Ukraine and Russia since 2022, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has now ordered the creation of a permanent national negotiating group in Kiev.

www.bluewin.ch

Zelensky also asked for a meeting of US, Russia, Ukraine and EU. That is a necessary next step. So far EU is not on board, but is pressing Ukraine to be inflexible. It is time the Europeans get to the table and press the Russians directly

MSN

The only reason we have any movement is because Trump & his Party will not adequately arm the Ukrainians, and Trump is willing to give away their country.

 

[year2late]

Trump says ceasefire negotiations between just Russia and Ukraine to start 'immediately'

President Donald Trump held a high-stakes call with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday over the war in Ukraine.

abcnews.go.com

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Trump just finished his phone-call with President Putin to broker a Russia-Ukraine peace-deal, and has released a statement.

However, I can't say I see any substance in Trump's statement. In fact, it doesn't seem to say much of anything.

Am I missing something?

How the hell are we supposed to know if Trump is telling the truth this time????

He says so much crap (and his MAGAs lop it up like a puppy dog at his mother's teat.)
How the hell are we supposed to know if he is not lying again?

His wounds are self-inflicted. If people do not believe him, it is because of his multiple lies he tells each day...

 

[Chomsky]

I have to give it to Z. That is a smart move- institutionalizing talks and creating a team. Trump should appreciate that for what it's worth.
I assume Putin made the same kind of commitment to ' institutionalize a process' . He said the same thing. They know their own issues.
Maybe this is actually progress by the parties themselves?

It is progress! That is how it starts. Once you get the ball rolling international and internal pressure on the Russians and Ukrainians will only increase to work something out.

This won't be as easy as it sounds, gentlemen. We're dealing with Putin, here.

In fact, I think I'd pretty much guarantee Putin will renege on any deal within 18-24 months.

 

[maxparrish]

Folks are so clouded by hostility to Trump that they cannot see that progress is actually being made towards some kind of resolution. Both sides have a ton of issues that they have not presented to each other in three years. The meetings and contacts so far are not useless as some appear to believe. Like Vietnam, or Korea, or even Afghanistan, stuff like this takes months. One thing is certain is nothing is gained by not bringing the parties to the table.

Rather, those who are clueless about the past are as naive and gullible as were previous generations about what real progress is - and doomed to repeat it. If they weren't historically untutored, they would know that diplomacy is merely the continuation of a war by additional means.

Like Vietnam or Korea, baring a major defeat of one side, negotiation does not take merely "months", it takes YEARS (4.8 years for Vietnam). And as with Vietnam, when one side is increasingly desperate for negotiations (LBJ, Robert Kennedy), and showing weakness by constantly halting or forgoing more aggressive action (e.g. Johnson's bombing pauses) to encourage peace, the other side is then milking it for advantage, and playing for time to deliver decisive blows that will determine the outcome of negotiations when time is right.

Much like North Vietnam, Putin has adopted this talk-fight strategy, making maximalist demands for more territory while waiting for the war to erode and outlast US resolve. Like NV, he is maximizing his leverage, exploiting US political divisions and targeting Trump's own weak resolve to gain or force Ukraine concessions.

So, most of these Vietnam war negotiations were merely for appearance, and to keep the bombing halt concession going. It ONLY made progress in 1972 when NV failed in its Easter Offensive and Nixon, to NV's surprise, restarted the bombing with B52 strikes devastating NV targets. The result was a US "face saving" agreement for US withdrawal and false security promises to South Vietnam should NV restart its aggression - which of course, it did.

All in all, it took 4 years and 8 months of negotiations, most of them a waste of time and provided the NVA and NV immunity from airstrikes above the 20th parallel.

So no, negotiations are not making progress. Progress will only be made when either Ukraine suffers a major loss and effectively concedes, or when Putin decides the pain is too great and there no more is to be gained.

So far Putin does not think there is no more to be gained, or that the pain is too great.

 

[maxparrish]

Just think of that. Trump unilaterally gave-away NATO status and Ukrainian territory - without a concession! Unprompted! UNPROMPTED!

How the hey does one do that???

You do that when you have contempt for your own ally and affection for your ally's enemy. Being too stupid (look at his appointments) and believing Ukraine started the war contributed to this delusional belief that Ukraine needed punished and peace would follow.

Think, during the Battle of Britan, if FDR sought peace by assuring Hitler that he told the Churchill that it must give up territory and that Hitler shouldn't worry because the US will never let the UK into an alliance with the US.

Would FDR be that stupid, and then would he be so stupid to wonder why Hitler might want to continue to war having pocketed FDR's assurances?

 

[rjay]

Trump's statement sounds totally bogus, to be honest.

I am sure you are mistaken. I don't think there has ever been a person less bogus than Trump, in all of human history.
He is so un-bogus, people can't believe it. No one has ever seen a less bogus person than Trump. People can't believe it.

He is unbelievable in so many ways.

I have even heard Trump, humbly mention, how good he is, and what a special individual he is, at almost anything a person can be good at.

We are very lucky to be alive at a time like this. A time where we are able to witness such an impressive individual. He is like something no one has ever seen before, he is unbelievable.

 

[anatta]

This won't be as easy as it sounds, gentlemen. We're dealing with Putin, here.

In fact, I think I'd pretty much guarantee Putin will renege on any deal within 18-24 months.

"there is a light at the end of the tunnel" a glimmer of the 2 taking on their own destiny. Putin can keep on grinding out a win to hold domestic power, but it's leaving the Russian economy almost all dedicated war time.
The carrot for Putin is sanction relief and negotiated territorial gains.
For Z it has to at minimum include giving up Crimea .'land for peace'

To your point then Putin doesn't get a free ride out of any agreement, and economic gains if he maintains the settlement

 

[Sage077]

I would think it self-evident by now how impotent Trump appears when confronting major adversaries, and how petty and small he appears by trying to look impressive abusing his neighbors and allies.

I'm sure he'd like to think of himself as a "great statesman", as a "deal maker" and "fixer" in a world of lessor men. But he shrinks in front of razor-sharp minds who see how limited he is and he knows it, enough to immediately consider themselves "friends" of his who he stupidly thinks respects his daffy opinions.

It is not a surprise to anyone that he is spinning his wheels on making peace, other than Trump and his unctuous sycophants. From the outset they walked in snarling and blustering under the assumption that Zelensky and Ukraine were the problem, doubting that they even had a right to be at the same table as Putin and Trump. Like many a fool, Trump thought "the big boys" could settle this with "a deal" between the only folks that count: the US and Russia, and that everyone else was a bit player.

It was a shock to Trump and his shoe shiners that Putin wouldn't be impressed by Trump's magnanimous sympathy to Putin and would not be happy with merely keeping all the has stolen.

Why should he, as Trump "has no cards". Blind to his own impotence and unwillingness to apply a real punishment on Putin, the fool went in and gave away NATO membership and Ukrainian territory before negotiations even began, having gotten nothing with no incentives left. Trump has no will to keep arming Ukraine, let alone increase aid, so why should Putin not hold out for more?

The dummy didn't get that his "friendship" with Putin is built on sand, and that absent real economic and military pressure on Putin and the imminent collapse of his rule Trump has ZERO leverage on this adversary.

Trump has boxed himself in, his own ego at war with reality.

what a delight to read such an articulate, well formulated and intelligent post. Absolutely spot on ~~!!! In the most basic / simplistic terms Trump is a crass bully in a China shop (metaphorically).......of skilled, intelligent and experienced leaders. He is an embarrassment to the fine country.

 

[anatta]

A buffer country protects against Putin's annexing incursions triggering Article 5.

It does (buffer) create a problem for Putin to mass for an attack. But the point is Putin's forces is worn out. I guess they could go on an offensive besides Ukraine, but it would be suicidal. Putin miscalculated one time about using traditional armor to lead an attack.
I don't think he'd try it again -especially NATO. and you can't gain and hold territory only by air.

What Putin wants is to cement his gains, once he's sure he's extracted as much of Ukr as possible.
Then he enjoys the spoils of war. For Z it's tougher, but if he could throw back Putin even some , the county would call it heroic.

Both still thing they can improve their position enough to stall talks

 

[iguanaman]

one more reason to hate Trump - right everyone ?

how dare he try to broker a peace ... we'd be better off with war and funding the war, giving hundreds of billions to Ukraine and kill, kill, and more killing ............ right ?

He is not even trying to broker peace. He is trying to get payoffs from Putin like he got on his trip to the M.E. He promised the europeans that he would support sanctions if Putin refused a ceasefire. He has refused a ceasefire and Trump is talking about making deals with a war criminal that will make him richer. No wonder Putin won't stop the war...he gets rewarded for giving Trump and the rest of the free world the middle finger. I have never seen a US President this weak and ineffectual.

 

[Chomsky]

"there is a light at the end of the tunnel" a glimmer of the 2 taking on their own destiny. Putin can keep on grinding out a win to hold domestic power, but it's leaving the Russian economy almost all dedicated war time.
The carrot for Putin is sanction relief and negotiated territorial gains.
For Z it has to at minimum include giving up Crimea .'land for peace'

To your point then Putin doesn't get a free ride out of any agreement, and economic gains if he maintains the settlement

There's no way Putin remains contained by an agreement. It's never happened.

 

[rhinefire]

Trump and his Vance man have stated clearly there is nothing they can do if Putin does not cooperate. Gee!! Are they both just now finding that out? I swear I heard Trump while praising himself as the greatest prez of all saying he will end the war in one day. I guess he was lying but itis as Vance said Biden's war.

 

[Chomsky]

It does (buffer) create a problem for Putin to mass for an attack. But the point is Putin's forces is worn out. I guess they could go on an offensive besides Ukraine, but it would be suicidal. Putin miscalculated one time about using traditional armor to lead an attack.
I don't think he'd try it again -especially NATO. and you can't gain and hold territory only by air.

What Putin wants is to cement his gains, once he's sure he's extracted as much of Ukr as possible.
Then he enjoys the spoils of war. For Z it's tougher, but if he could throw back Putin even some , the county would call it heroic.

Both still thing they can improve their position enough to stall talks

Possibly true. But only long enough to consolidate & regroup, as he did after Crimea.

 

[maxparrish]

"there is a light at the end of the tunnel" a glimmer of the 2 taking on their own destiny. Putin can keep on grinding out a win to hold domestic power, but it's leaving the Russian economy almost all dedicated war time.
The carrot for Putin is sanction relief and negotiated territorial gains.
For Z it has to at minimum include giving up Crimea .'land for peace'

To your point then Putin doesn't get a free ride out of any agreement, and economic gains if he maintains the settlement

The problem isn't giving up Crimea - polls show that of all the lost territory Crimea is the least important to Ukrainians. Most important is the south above Crimea and much of the eastern Ukraine.

Moreover, Putin wants a whole lot more and won't give up a dime. And he wants Ukraine's government and people under his thumb.

Finally I am not sure why you would use that phrase of "light at the end of the tunnel", its sardonic towards those who think that think that, like Vietnam, peace is just within reach.

 

[rhinefire]

The two hour conversation ended with Putin saying if Trump does not stop pushing him to negotiate, he will rig the next election for the dems.

 

[Chomsky]

He is not even trying to broker peace. He is trying to get payoffs from Putin like he got on his trip to the M.E. He promised the europeans that he would support sanctions if Putin refused a ceasefire. He has refused a ceasefire and Trump is talking about making deals with a war criminal that will make him richer. No wonder Putin won't stop the war...he gets rewarded for giving Trump and the rest of the free world the middle finger. I have never seen a US President this weak and ineffectual.

Agreed.

Putin has no reason to hold the peace. No one is standing-up to him.

 

[anatta]

There's no way Putin remains contained by an agreement. It's never happened.

he's never been in a stalemated war for years- a slog to gain only some of his desires. Those are hard won gains and he wont gamble them over a militarized border . A highly militarized border, which it has to be to keep the agreement from being violated. like the DMZ - neither NKorea or SKorea can advance

 

[iguanaman]

It does (buffer) create a problem for Putin to mass for an attack. But the point is Putin's forces is worn out. I guess they could go on an offensive besides Ukraine, but it would be suicidal. Putin miscalculated one time about using traditional armor to lead an attack.
I don't think he'd try it again -especially NATO. and you can't gain and hold territory only by air.

What Putin wants is to cement his gains, once he's sure he's extracted as much of Ukr as possible.
Then he enjoys the spoils of war. For Z it's tougher, but if he could throw back Putin even some , the county would call it heroic.

Both still thing they can improve their position enough to stall talks

Ukrainians would ride Zelensky out on a rail if he willingly gave up Ukrainian lives to Russian occupation and genocide. Zelensky throws back Putin every single day to the tune of 1000+ Russian casualties and it is getting close to a million Russians maimed or killed in this useless war. Putin cannot stop either. He has converted Russia into a war economy that will collapse if he pauses for even 30 days. The Russians have already stated that they will fight for 20 more years if that is what it takes to get their goals in Ukraine. They mean they are preparing for endless war and Ukraine is just the beginning.

 

[Chomsky]

The problem isn't giving up Crimea - polls show that of all the lost territory Crimea is the least important to Ukrainians. Most important is the south above Crimea and much of the eastern Ukraine.

Moreover, Putin wants a whole lot more and won't give up a dime. And he wants Ukraine's government and people under his thumb.

Finally I am not sure why you would use that phrase of "light at the end of the tunnel", its sardonic towards those who think that think that, like Vietnam, peace is just within reach.

I'm blown away by the naivete & lack of understanding in matters of Putin. Literally, pure naiveite!

How do they think they can "make peace", with Putin? Have an "agreement", with Putin? It's totally ridiculous.

 

[anatta]

Ukrainians would ride Zelensky out on a rail if he willingly gave up Ukrainian lives to Russian occupation and genocide. Zelensky throws back Putin every single day to the tune of 1000+ Russian casualties and it is getting close to a million Russians maimed or killed in this useless war. Putin cannot stop either. He has converted Russia into a war economy that will collapse if he pauses for even 30 days. The Russians have already stated that they will fight for 20 more years if that is what it takes to get their goals in Ukraine. They mean they are preparing for endless war and Ukraine is just the beginning.

well then they can have endless war. Good luck and adios, The good thing now is the USA is out of it for talks/aid
, and it's upto the belligerents how long they wanna bleed

 

[Hamish Howl]

This does not compute. If you truly DNGAF why do you have an extensive track record of appearing in damn near every thread on the subject relentlessly?

For that matter why would it overwhelmingly appear that you were vocerifically, emotionally and continuously towing the rope for one side of the conflict exclusively?

Your post history definitively negates your claims in the quoted post above.

See? It's not just me seeing that.

 

[anatta]

The problem isn't giving up Crimea - polls show that of all the lost territory Crimea is the least important to Ukrainians. Most important is the south above Crimea and much of the eastern Ukraine.

I'm familiar with the "land bridge" to Crime thru the southeastern oblasts. Russia has held that for some time. It's existential important to them for access to Crimea given the attacks on the Kerch Straight bridge. are you mentioning this because it is what Putin want most of all? a least I think so, along with Crimea It has to be top priority

Moreover, Putin wants a whole lot more and won't give up a dime. And he wants Ukraine's government and people under his thumb.

He wants it all. The question is how long can UKr stop him and how long will Putin try to advance his outlandish desires ? Since there isn't any serious chance for negotiated settlement of the issue, it does appear endless without talks

Finally I am not sure why you would use that phrase of "light at the end of the tunnel", its sardonic towards those who think that think that, like Vietnam, peace is just within reach.

I used it that way. Hopeful and sarcastic. glad you saw that

 

[Chomsky]

he's never been in a stalemated war for years- a slog to gain only some of his desires. Those are hard won gains and he wont gamble them over a militarized border . A highly militarized border, which it has to be to keep the agreement from being violated. like the DMZ - neither NKorea or SKorea can advance

Do you think Putin isn't happy to grind-it-out? It's what he & Russians do. He hasn't stopped yet, and in fact rebutted Trump today saying he won't stop.

Here:

the Russian leader declined to support the US-proposed 30-day unconditional ceasefire, which Ukraine had already agreed to – and which Washington had framed as the call’s primary objective. Putin also suggested his country’s maximalist objectives in the war with Ukraine were unchanged.

*emphasis mine

Source:

Trump and Putin hold phone call but Kremlin refuses Ukraine ceasefire

Trump describes call as ‘excellent,’ despite Putin’s lack of support for ceasefire that US said was primary objective

www.theguardian.com

 

[Chomsky]

Ukrainians would ride Zelensky out on a rail if he willingly gave up Ukrainian lives to Russian occupation and genocide. Zelensky throws back Putin every single day to the tune of 1000+ Russian casualties and it is getting close to a million Russians maimed or killed in this useless war. Putin cannot stop either. He has converted Russia into a war economy that will collapse if he pauses for even 30 days. The Russians have already stated that they will fight for 20 more years if that is what it takes to get their goals in Ukraine. They mean they are preparing for endless war and Ukraine is just the beginning.

Exactly. Russia has converted into a war economy.