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A Week in the Conservative Utopia

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
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Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
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Political Leaning
Progressive
There is a political dimension beyond that which is known to logic and reason. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension not of reality, but of imagination. It is an area which we call the Conservative Zone.

Consider the Philippines. Its society is strongly conservative (it's one of the most religious nations on the planet). It has a small, relatively weak government wherein its low-level workers are paid starvation wages. Taxes are paid, but almost, it seems, on a voluntary basis. There is little government regulation to speak of (whether safety, financial, or ethical), for in this nation, the business owner is king, and - short of physical assault or murder - answers to no one. Living wage? Whoever heard of such a thing? Minimum wage? About two dollars per day...and even this law is generally ignored.

Yes, here, the business owner is king, indeed! They are free to keep almost all of what they earn, free to reinvest it where they will. Because of this, the sixteen billionaires (in US$) of this nation work marvels within the local economy - world-class resorts, and some of the largest malls in the world. On a smaller scale, there are hundreds of millionaires, each with multiple homes, many of which would make the McMansions of Malibu look like low-rent subsided housing indeed.

What's more, while there is a local form of 'social security', it's a pittance, barely enough to eat on, much less to afford shelter or clothing. And that is about the sum total of their "social safety net" - in other words, there's almost no social safety net at all. There are absolutely no "welfare queens" or "welfare cadillacs" or "people sitting around waiting for food stamps". So this, too, would mean that there's no slackers living off the dole, forcing the taxpayers to support their lifestyles.

The people here work so hard, too. No one can call them 'lazy' or 'privileged', but as one gets to know them, one sees that in this nation, one can work so hard all their lives just to put food on the table, but never have an opportunity to send their children to college, much less buy a house or a condo. Here, hard work is less of a necessity to success than is knowing the right people, so why work so hard? Because they have to eat. Two dollars, perhaps a little more per day, with no real hope of success in the foreseeable future. This is life in the conservative utopia we call the Philippines.

So is this not real freedom? This nation has had the conservative/libertarian trifecta of small, weak government, low effective taxes, little or no regulation, and no real social safety net since its inception in 1946. Is this not a nation and a society that Ayn Rand herself would have praised as a shining libertarian city on a hill? Indeed she would, if she would consider one of the most poverty-ridden nations on the planet as 'free' and 'successful'.

The Philippines provides a wonderful example of the failure of conservative 'trickle-down' economics...because to paraphrase Al Sharpton, the people got the down, but they never got the trickle. And that is precisely the problem with conservative economic dogma: while the ideas sound so reasonable and the rhetoric seems so logical, in actual practice, there is precisely zero real-world evidence that conservative/libertarian economic practice results in actual prosperity on a national scale. Conversely, there is a wealth of evidence that socialized democracy does indeed bring national prosperity, as is evinced by every first-world democracy on the planet.

Unfortunately, there's simply too many conservatives in America who can't force themselves to set aside their dogma long enough to see what kind of governmental systems actually result in success on a national scale as compared to which don't. It's as if the moment one points out that every first-world democracy on the planet is also a socialized democracy, a switch ticks off - the word "socialism" blinds them to what brings the highest standards of living to national populations. Preserving their belief in what they see in their dreams of a world filled with their dogmatic orthodoxy is more important than seeing what the reality of the world around them.

It is indeed as George Orwell said in 1984: "Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
 
I remember reading that new year celebrations in the Philippines are chaotic and result in people being injured quite regularly due to irresponsible use of fireworks and such. Does this have anything to do with the lack of government regulations?

Also, there is a difference between having a decent social safety net and being a 'socialized nation.'
 
If I move to the Phillipines, can I take my medicare with me?
 
I remember reading that new year celebrations in the Philippines are chaotic and result in people being injured quite regularly due to irresponsible use of fireworks and such. Does this have anything to do with the lack of government regulations?

Very much so. For instance, most injuries happen with firecrackers (small and large)...and these are increasingly unlawful in cities across America. Here in Washington state we can only get them on Native American reservations. However, in the PI, they are easily gotten...and many more people (particularly children) suffer the consequences.

And yes, New Year's Day eve there is likened to a war zone with reason - the scent of explosive powder is everywhere.

Also, there is a difference between having a decent social safety net and being a 'socialized nation.'

I refer to the first world democracies all being 'socialized' because while they are certainly not socialist nations, they all (including America) do have comprehensive social-safety-net programs that are socialistic in nature, and which take up significant portions of their national budgets.
 
If I move to the Phillipines, can I take my medicare with me?

No. You can take your Social Security...but I understand that might be taken away if they find out you're living outside our borders. I don't know if that's true or not, but my mother-in-law comes back to America every year just to make sure they know she's here.

That, and if you're retired military like I am, you are covered by TriCare standard by many, many health care hospitals and organizations there - at least a hundred or so within Metro Manila itself.
 
Very much so. For instance, most injuries happen with firecrackers (small and large)...and these are increasingly unlawful in cities across America. Here in Washington state we can only get them on Native American reservations. However, in the PI, they are easily gotten...and many more people (particularly children) suffer the consequences.

And yes, New Year's Day eve there is likened to a war zone with reason - the scent of explosive powder is everywhere.


So what? You choose to play with (or around) fireworks, you assume the risks.


The rest of your critique has merit. Personally I favor a middle-road system with a reasonable safety net and some limited economic intervention.

However it is the nanny-state I hate, that tries to keep everybody safe from their own choices by taking away the sharp scissors and forbidding matches and so forth.... and that's why I rarely vote for a Democrat candidate. Not that I love the GOP (I don't), but I hate the Nanny Statists even worse than I hate the I-got-mine-screw-you-Randiyans.
 
So what? You choose to play with (or around) fireworks, you assume the risks.


The rest of your critique has merit. Personally I favor a middle-road system with a reasonable safety net and some limited economic intervention.

However it is the nanny-state I hate, that tries to keep everybody safe from their own choices by taking away the sharp scissors and forbidding matches and so forth.... and that's why I rarely vote for a Democrat candidate. Not that I love the GOP (I don't), but I hate the Nanny Statists even worse than I hate the I-got-mine-screw-you-Randiyans.

Problem with that is, at what point does freedom to ignore safety become a bad thing? Seatbelts save many thousands of lives every year, and prevent many more serious (and forever disabling) injuries. Does your personal freedom to ignore that seatbelt law supercede what is proven to work? And one can't say that the laws are not needed, because it was shown that states without such laws showed little or no improvement in seatbelt use, whereas those with laws had significantly-increased seatbelt use...along with which a markedly lower injury and death rate due to that increase rate of use (which also saved a lot of taxpayer dollars).

In other words, it's understandable to say, "I'm an individual and I am an adult and I know what's best for me and what's right and wrong. I should be able to make up my own mind." However, in actual practice, without measures such as seatbelt laws, it's shown that we normally won't do what really is best for us and our children.

One note - if you really want to find out what it's like to live with few (or no) such regulations, then move to any of most of the third-world nations out there. What safety laws and regs they have are generally ignored...and then you can find out what it's like. Sometimes it's really nice to flip the metaphorical bird at safety regs in such places...but after a while, you begin to find out that this is part of the reason why they're still a third-world nation....
 
Problem with that is, at what point does freedom to ignore safety become a bad thing? Seatbelts save many thousands of lives every year, and prevent many more serious (and forever disabling) injuries. Does your personal freedom to ignore that seatbelt law supercede what is proven to work? And one can't say that the laws are not needed, because it was shown that states without such laws showed little or no improvement in seatbelt use, whereas those with laws had significantly-increased seatbelt use...along with which a markedly lower injury and death rate due to that increase rate of use (which also saved a lot of taxpayer dollars).

In other words, it's understandable to say, "I'm an individual and I am an adult and I know what's best for me and what's right and wrong. I should be able to make up my own mind." However, in actual practice, without measures such as seatbelt laws, it's shown that we normally won't do what really is best for us and our children.

One note - if you really want to find out what it's like to live with few (or no) such regulations, then move to any of most of the third-world nations out there. What safety laws and regs they have are generally ignored...and then you can find out what it's like. Sometimes it's really nice to flip the metaphorical bird at safety regs in such places...but after a while, you begin to find out that this is part of the reason why they're still a third-world nation....



There's a difference between safety regulations which are designed to prevent you from screwing OTHERS (these I support), and safety regulations designed to keep you choosing to take risks (these I mostly oppose).

I oppose seat belt laws. I can prove there is no need for them: simply make it so if you're not buckled in, you're "proceeding at your own risk" and no one is liable but YOU. Ditto motorcycle helmets, fireworks, etc.
 
There is a political dimension beyond that which is known to logic and reason. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension not of reality, but of imagination. It is an area which we call the Conservative Zone.

Consider the Philippines. Its society is strongly conservative (it's one of the most religious nations on the planet). It has a small, relatively weak government wherein its low-level workers are paid starvation wages. Taxes are paid, but almost, it seems, on a voluntary basis. There is little government regulation to speak of (whether safety, financial, or ethical), for in this nation, the business owner is king, and - short of physical assault or murder - answers to no one. Living wage? Whoever heard of such a thing? Minimum wage? About two dollars per day...and even this law is generally ignored.

Yes, here, the business owner is king, indeed! They are free to keep almost all of what they earn, free to reinvest it where they will. Because of this, the sixteen billionaires (in US$) of this nation work marvels within the local economy - world-class resorts, and some of the largest malls in the world. On a smaller scale, there are hundreds of millionaires, each with multiple homes, many of which would make the McMansions of Malibu look like low-rent subsided housing indeed.

What's more, while there is a local form of 'social security', it's a pittance, barely enough to eat on, much less to afford shelter or clothing. And that is about the sum total of their "social safety net" - in other words, there's almost no social safety net at all. There are absolutely no "welfare queens" or "welfare cadillacs" or "people sitting around waiting for food stamps". So this, too, would mean that there's no slackers living off the dole, forcing the taxpayers to support their lifestyles.

The people here work so hard, too. No one can call them 'lazy' or 'privileged', but as one gets to know them, one sees that in this nation, one can work so hard all their lives just to put food on the table, but never have an opportunity to send their children to college, much less buy a house or a condo. Here, hard work is less of a necessity to success than is knowing the right people, so why work so hard? Because they have to eat. Two dollars, perhaps a little more per day, with no real hope of success in the foreseeable future. This is life in the conservative utopia we call the Philippines.

So is this not real freedom? This nation has had the conservative/libertarian trifecta of small, weak government, low effective taxes, little or no regulation, and no real social safety net since its inception in 1946. Is this not a nation and a society that Ayn Rand herself would have praised as a shining libertarian city on a hill? Indeed she would, if she would consider one of the most poverty-ridden nations on the planet as 'free' and 'successful'.

The Philippines provides a wonderful example of the failure of conservative 'trickle-down' economics...because to paraphrase Al Sharpton, the people got the down, but they never got the trickle. And that is precisely the problem with conservative economic dogma: while the ideas sound so reasonable and the rhetoric seems so logical, in actual practice, there is precisely zero real-world evidence that conservative/libertarian economic practice results in actual prosperity on a national scale. Conversely, there is a wealth of evidence that socialized democracy does indeed bring national prosperity, as is evinced by every first-world democracy on the planet.

Unfortunately, there's simply too many conservatives in America who can't force themselves to set aside their dogma long enough to see what kind of governmental systems actually result in success on a national scale as compared to which don't. It's as if the moment one points out that every first-world democracy on the planet is also a socialized democracy, a switch ticks off - the word "socialism" blinds them to what brings the highest standards of living to national populations. Preserving their belief in what they see in their dreams of a world filled with their dogmatic orthodoxy is more important than seeing what the reality of the world around them.

It is indeed as George Orwell said in 1984: "Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”

There isn't a conservative utopia, we don't buy into the scam.
 
There's a difference between safety regulations which are designed to prevent you from screwing OTHERS (these I support), and safety regulations designed to keep you choosing to take risks (these I mostly oppose).

I oppose seat belt laws. I can prove there is no need for them: simply make it so if you're not buckled in, you're "proceeding at your own risk" and no one is liable but YOU. Ditto motorcycle helmets, fireworks, etc.

That's the problem, right there - automatically putting one's own personal preferences above one's duty to society. Most of those with opinions like yours above (which are most often seen among libertarians and (to a lesser extent) conservatives) see the phrase "one's duty to society" as a fast-track to socialism, a voluntary surrendering of one's freedom and rights because "Big Brother Says So".

And it's a classic example of not seeing the forest for the trees. For those not familiar with the phrase, this refers to how one might see this or that tree (or even several trees) that's in poor health, and assume the whole forest is that way...when in fact the forest as a whole is very healthy, or is mostly comprised of trees different than what the person sees.

Why does this metaphor fit? Because you are concentrating on protecting your own "right to choose" without consideration of what happens in the macroscopic picture when everyone can do what they want. Apparently you feel that the macroscopic picture is of no consequence - if some idiot whose name you never knew does something that disables him for life because he didn't wear his seat belt, hey, that's no skin off your back, right?

Wrong.

Ask yourself what happens when that guy is disabled for life - he can no longer be a wage earner, can he? He can no longer support his family. Does he lose his job? Almost certainly (which costs the employer, too). Does he lose his house? Probably (and drags down local property values and thus decreases property tax revenue). Does he and his family become dependent on taxpayer-funded state assistance? Almost certainly. So yeah, it DOES cost YOU money when people don't follow safety laws.

And if you got rid of those laws, this (unnecessarily) happens to more and more people, and makes it harder for all of us, and increases the burden on the taxpayers.

So that's the choice: you can (1) have your own personal freedom, even though it will result in many more people killed/disabled or seriously injured, with all the taxpayer costs that go with those, including the losses of careers and ability to provide for one's family...or (2) you can accept that this particular loss of this very minor freedom is a very cheap price to pay for the benefit it gives the society and taxpayers as a whole...including to yourself.
 
So that's the choice: you can (1) have your own personal freedom, even though it will result in many more people killed/disabled or seriously injured, with all the taxpayer costs that go with those, including the losses of careers and ability to provide for one's family...or


Ok. I chose 1.


Because freedom is important, and nanny gov't IS a slippery slope to totalitarianism.
 
We don't need big government and regulation what we need is personal accountability. Remove the LLCs. If every corporate CEO, board member and investor could be personally sued for their personal assets you would find all corporations voluntarily producing safe and effective products.
 
Ok. I chose 1.


Because freedom is important, and nanny gov't IS a slippery slope to totalitarianism.

You do know why "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy, right? No? Read on:

Slippery slope arguments falsely assume that one thing must lead to another. They begin by suggesting that if we do one thing then that will lead to another, and before we know it we’ll be doing something that we don’t want to do. They conclude that we therefore shouldn’t do the first thing. The problem with these arguments is that it is possible to do the first thing that they mention without going on to do the other things; restraint is possible.

Example:
(1) If you buy a Green Day album, then next you’ll be buying Buzzcocks albums, and before you know it you’ll be a punk with green hair and everything.
(2) You don’t want to become a punk.
Therefore:
(3) You shouldn’t buy a Green Day album.

This argument commits the slippery slope fallacy because it is perfectly possible to buy a Green Day album without going on to become a punk; we could buy the album and then stop there. The conclusion therefore hasn’t been proven, because the argument’s first premise is false.


In other words, you're assuming we're automatically going to go from seat belt laws straight down into oppressive tyranny, without ever considering the possibility that there's any middle ground, that we might actually settle upon a happy medium.

Freedom, sir, is sorta like the story of Goldilocks. If there's too much freedom, we have anarchy. If we have too little freedom, it's tyranny. Too much or too little freedom is bad for everyone. Having the precise amount of freedom that provides the best opportunity for the greatest number of people to thrive...that's the Goldilocks way.
 
You do know why "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy, right? No? Read on:

Slippery slope arguments falsely ....





Thoroughly aware for a long time thanks.



The slippery slope however isn't a "fallacy" when the slope is greased and someone is pushing.
 
So that's the choice: you can (1) have your own personal freedom, even though it will result in many more people killed/disabled or seriously injured, with all the taxpayer costs that go with those, including the losses of careers and ability to provide for one's family...or (2) you can accept that this particular loss of this very minor freedom is a very cheap price to pay for the benefit it gives the society and taxpayers as a whole...including to yourself.

I'll take one please.
 
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