A thought question about Christianity

[Dayton3]

This is pretty close to how I see it. From my reading, the religion was corrupted by John.

Before the hate filled gospel of John dominated Christianity, mostly in an attempt to separate Christians from the other Jews, the faith was based on deeds not the worship of the man named Jesus. Now, it's all about belief in a savior, while doing good deeds no longer matters. The modern Christians actually say that a good person will not get into heaven without Jesus, but a bad one will get a free pass, if he accepts Christ as his savior.

In other words, they got it exactly backwards.

How is the Gospel of John "hate filled"?

 

[code1211]

Let's put beliefs aside for a second, whether you believe that there is a God or not.

Christianity believes that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. That is probably the main basis of all of Christianity teachings. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that tomorrow a body is unearthed, and is proven (again, just for the sake of argument) that it is the body of Jesus Christ. What do you all think would happen in the world as far as crisis of faith, schooling and teaching, religion, spirituality, etc.

Accepting that your premise is ridiculous since there could be NO proof offered showing this, I FEEL like there would three camps:

1. those with no change.

2. those that continued to worship Christ as the Muslims worship their Prophet

3. Those that recognized that without the Resurrection and Ascension, the claims to divinity lose foundation.

Out of curiosity, where, in your imagined scenario, is the body found and by whom and by what circumstance? Following that, by what process is the body identified?

 

[code1211]

The word Christianity is supposed to refer to following Jesus' (alaihi as-salam) teachings. How many Christians follow his teachings and how many worship him instead today?

Since they have managed to distort the Bible by now enough to make a mere prophet a god, would they try to get away from this proposed issue by distorting it further?

How many mere prophets were crucified, died, buried and then rose from the dead and wandered about with mortal wounds in their body for 40 days?

 

[code1211]

THere wouldn’t be any. One thing we know about modern life: science and logic aren’t required to defend a damn thing someone believes in. This would be no different, and religious folks aren’t the most accepting of science to begin with.

"Religious folks" have made many of the most foundational scientific discoveries in history.

 

[code1211]

Do people (Christians) actually assume that there’s a physical, human-form, flesh and blood Jesus in some supernatural heaven dimension?

As I understand it, that is a part of the dogma.

 

[code1211]

This is pretty close to how I see it. From my reading, the religion was corrupted by John.

Before the hate filled gospel of John dominated Christianity, mostly in an attempt to separate Christians from the other Jews, the faith was based on deeds not the worship of the man named Jesus. Now, it's all about belief in a savior, while doing good deeds no longer matters. The modern Christians actually say that a good person will not get into heaven without Jesus, but a bad one will get a free pass, if he accepts Christ as his savior.

In other words, they got it exactly backwards.

"The hate filled gospel of John"?

Examples of the hate?

 

[code1211]

That should not make a bit of difference because Jesus’ own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh-and-blood body...he said that he would give his “flesh in behalf of the life of the world,” as a ransom for mankind...John 6:51...if Jesus had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have canceled that ransom sacrifice so this could not have happened, though, for the Bible says that he sacrificed his flesh and blood “once for all time"...

Is the bolded part your own thoughts, the thoughts of Jesus or some theologian?

 

[code1211]

Not much. People who believe in Christianity would either deny the proof, or they would make up some kind of story to make the proof jibe with their worldview, just like they have always done.

Using any religion to justify a world view seems to be a pretty common practice.

Christianity seems to also be used as such a tool by those who seem prone to do so.

 

[code1211]

My point is that the hypothetical in the OP is twice or several times removed. It puts into reality what does not even exist in fiction (the Bible). It is not about Christianity. It even begins, in the "Beliefs..." sub-forum, "Let's put beliefs aside for a second...". No where near the detail in the OP story to allow for logical thought. Asking others to take a position in the matter without the poster giving one at all that might help illicit appropriate comment to whatever the OP is talking about. Instead of TMI, it's TLI. It would take a lot to get to "enough" info. This is about as far as I go with an OP that demands a position from others with stating its own, unless admittedly speaking from a need for info due to a lack of knowledge.

In the OP, it demands that the proof of identity be acceptable to all.

The Bible may have various parts that are not historical fact and, of course, all of it was written a good long while ago.

That said, the four Gospels were written within the living memory of those who knew Jesus. Mathew and John were eye witnesses. Mark and Luke were more like reporters or scribes recording the thoughts of eye witnesses.

Biographies of that day were not like biographies of today. It seems pretty likely that some unusually strong motivating event(s) occurred to inspire the kind of dedication to the religion that was demonstrated by the Disciples.

 

[code1211]

There is no reason in the scripture. It's just a collection of made up fantasies.

Looking at the icon you display as a part of your nameplate, your comment is a bit humorous.

 

[code1211]

I've argued, rather successfully, IIRC, that you can defend any position on earth, good or bad, by quoting the Bible. Murder? The good book has it covered. Owning slave? Check. Beating the wife? Oh Yeah, it's in there too. Kill the kids? Uh-huh, no problem. God said, "It's all good."

So it goes.

Can you support those things with the words spoken by Christ?

 

[code1211]

There is no need to "debunk" nonsense. Nonsense debunks itself. Dead people do not rise and fly through the air. This is self-evident.

Does sound a bit unusual, doesn't it.

 

[donhughesmusic]

Accepting that your premise is ridiculous since there could be NO proof offered showing this, I FEEL like there would three camps:

1. those with no change.

2. those that continued to worship Christ as the Muslims worship their Prophet

3. Those that recognized that without the Resurrection and Ascension, the claims to divinity lose foundation.

Out of curiosity, where, in your imagined scenario, is the body found and by whom and by what circumstance? Following that, by what process is the body identified?

DNA, carbon dating, technology newly developed, I'm not saying it is possible, just a hypothetical. As far as where, probably where it is written that he lived. Whom and what? Archeologists of course.

 

[gooseneck]

How is the Gospel of John "hate filled"?

I don’t know.

 

[gooseneck]

DNA, carbon dating, technology newly developed, I'm not saying it is possible, just a hypothetical. As far as where, probably where it is written that he lived. Whom and what? Archeologists of course.

If you kill a bug, wait three days, then carbon date the bug, what will the results be?

Scientists should be carbon dating specimens with which we know their determined age in order to test the reliability of the method.

 

[donhughesmusic]

If you kill a bug, wait three days, then carbon date the bug, what will the results be?

Scientists should be carbon dating specimens with which we know their determined age in order to test the reliability of the method.

I'm not saying we should or shouldn't, it was strictly hypothetical. Just like who would win in a fight, Ghandi or Genghis Khan (though Celebrity Deathmatch already did that )

 

[Daisy]

Is the bolded part your own thoughts, the thoughts of Jesus or some theologian?

Both...if Jesus was resurrected back in the flesh, that would have cancelled his sacrifice...John 6:51 makes that apparent...he would have really sacrificed nothing...

 

[code1211]

DNA, carbon dating, technology newly developed, I'm not saying it is possible, just a hypothetical. As far as where, probably where it is written that he lived. Whom and what? Archeologists of course.

IF you are proposing a DNA match, THEN there would need to be some DNA somewhere to which the newly exhumed sample could be matched. There is none.

That's pretty much why I wrote that it was not a real world scenario.

I happened to have just watched a Catholic Theologian recount a conversation he'd had with a peer that posed a similar premise. Not exact, but similar.

He was floored by his peer's view that this would change nothing. Clearly, it would change EVERY OTHER THING.

Strolling around in the same damaged body was evidence of more than just a neglectful maintenance program.

As a child, the words of Thomas saying he wanted to place his finger where the nails had been and PUT MY HAND IN HIS SIDE, were confusing. Why a finger in one and a hand in the other?

A little older now and more familiar with the weaponry of the Roman soldiers, Thrusting spears were designed to kill with ONE thrust. The would left was so deep and so wide, causing too much damage to survive.

Tybalt describes his fatal wound in "Romeo and Juliet" as being not as wide as a church door nor as deep as a well, but noted that it would do. He dies soon afterward.

Even lacking the many hours and days of torture combined with having been crucified, that very wide and deep wound alone would have been enough to kill.

 

[bluesmoke]

There is no need to "debunk" nonsense. Nonsense debunks itself. Dead people do not rise and fly through the air. This is self-evident.

In the 2.5B Christians belief, Christ is the exception. And His followers except their behavior from His teaching while believing they are heaven bound. Yin-yang.

 

[code1211]

There is no need to "debunk" nonsense. Nonsense debunks itself. Dead people do not rise and fly through the air. This is self-evident.

By what means do you debunk the eye witness testimony of hundreds of folks who claimed pretty fervently that they saw the risen Christ AFTER he dies during the Crucifixion?

 

[RAMOSS]

By what means do you debunk the eye witness testimony of hundreds of folks who claimed pretty fervently that they saw the risen Christ AFTER he dies during the Crucifixion?

Well, there are the claims of hundreds of witnesses. You know what is missing? Actual witnesses.

 

[Daisy]

Well, there are the claims of hundreds of witnesses. You know what is missing? Actual witnesses.

lol...I guess you expect them to still be alive today to give a witness...

 

[narrowroad]

Let's put beliefs aside for a second, whether you believe that there is a God or not.

Christianity believes that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. That is probably the main basis of all of Christianity teachings. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that tomorrow a body is unearthed, and is proven (again, just for the sake of argument) that it is the body of Jesus Christ. What do you all think would happen in the world as far as crisis of faith, schooling and teaching, religion, spirituality, etc.

that is something that would have been, likely WAS done centuries ago.. like right after the event..

are u re-inventing the wheel?

In any case, I can u/stand someone not believing in Jesus... someone who has never been in His actual, physical PRESENCE which is found in HIS Church

the Catholic Church

so, yeh, I get where you're coming from...

but what is that saying: God loves you right where you're at

But loves you too much to KEEP u there.

 

[RAMOSS]

lol...I guess you expect them to still be alive today to give a witness...

No, not at all. Just , I would think, out 'hundreds' of witnesses, we would have a first hand account, rather than claims from decades later

 

[donhughesmusic]

that is something that would have been, likely WAS done centuries ago.. like right after the event..

are u re-inventing the wheel?

In any case, I can u/stand someone not believing in Jesus... someone who has never been in His actual, physical PRESENCE which is found in HIS Church

the Catholic Church

so, yeh, I get where you're coming from...

but what is that saying: God loves you right where you're at

But loves you too much to KEEP u there.

I was raised in the Catholic Church for the record. My family was kicked out of our parish for not giving them donations when my mother lost her job and couldn't give donations.