A Simple Proposal Regarding Offshoring

[phattonez]

Should we ban companies from selling products in this country if they do not follow US labor laws?

 

[Felis Leo]

Should we ban companies from selling products in this country if they do not follow US labor laws?

All labor laws, phattonez? Were there any laws in particular the violations of which you think are particularly egregious?

 

[MrWonka]

Should we ban companies from selling products in this country if they do not follow US labor laws?

There's no reason why someone living in Mexico needs to make the same minimum wage as someone living in New York City. Their quality of life doesn't necessarily have to suffer so there's reason to ban it. Furthermore, the improvement to the economies of some of these under developed nations is more beneficial to them than nothing.

 

[phattonez]

I argue that yes, this is a no-brainer. We have laws in this country that apply to any company that hires Americans. Why should we allow companies to get around these law by hiring overseas labor? It drives down American wages because it would be illegal for Americans to compete with those wages, and it forces production overseas that we could just as easily do ourselves.

 

[lwf]

You'll have to be more specific. If we banned every company that doesn't follow U.S. Labor laws 100% to the letter, there'd be very little international trade left. That said, I am in favor of embargoes on goods from companies that violate human rights.

I'd like to see a set allowable percentage difference between the highest paid employee and the lowest paid employee at a given company. Of course, most U.S. companies would likely fail that test no matter how large the difference is, so I don't see that happening.

 

[phattonez]

All labor laws, phattonez? Were there any laws in particular the violations of which you think are particularly egregious?

We're paying Chinese workers the equivalent of $1 per hour. That's particularly egregious.

 

[chuckiechan]

Should we ban companies from selling products in this country if they do not follow US labor laws?

I’m not a “ban” guy.

I could see us pressuring say Mexico to either pay 3/4 of American UAW wage, or we tariff it up there instead. Trump did something similar with Ford in Mexico. Make them pay higher wages that benefit Mexico.

Or Chinese glass. In a US plant has 30% human labor in the end product, and they are costing out at 5%, tariff it into adjustment.

The problem is it would be a thicket of regulations only a democrat could love.

 

[phattonez]

There's no reason why someone living in Mexico needs to make the same minimum wage as someone living in New York City. Their quality of life doesn't necessarily have to suffer so there's reason to ban it. Furthermore, the improvement to the economies of some of these under developed nations is more beneficial to them than nothing.

Mexicans are being paid less today than they were before NAFTA. How has this helped Mexicans?

TRADE: The Nafta Paradox | Center for Latin American Studies (CLAS)

 

[phattonez]

I’m not a “ban” guy.

I could see us pressuring say Mexico to either pay 3/4 of American UAW wage, or we tariff it up there instead. Trump did something similar with Ford in Mexico. Make them pay higher wages that benefit Mexico.

Or Chinese glass. In a US plant has 30% human labor in the end product, and they are costing out at 5%, tariff it into adjustment.

The problem is it would be a thicket of regulations only a democrat could love.

I like the idea of settling the issue through tariffs. It would force wages higher overseas while making our unions stronger. Of course, unions are a contentious subject. They're good in theory, but they've become a mess in practice. Did you see what the president of the AFL-CIO said recently? He was upset about an ICE raid on a company that was hiring illegals and paying them under the table. I thought that the unions were supposed to represent the rights of workers!

 

[Kreton]

It should be up to the individual. Label products made under inhumane conditions. If a person knowingly buys a product and they choose price over humans then so be it.

 

[phattonez]

It should be up to the individual. Label products made under inhumane conditions. If a person knowingly buys a product and they choose price over humans then so be it.

We have every right to regulate things that harm people.

Not that I'm ready to blame poor American consumers who don't exactly have the means to choose higher priced products. Still, I question how much this would raise prices. These are companies that are giving out billions in share buybacks. They can afford to pay their employees more.

 

[rickc]

For there to be fair trade there needs to be a level playing field

Health and safety on par with the us otherwise adjust pricing to reflect the difference

Same with environmental regulations

This could become a very complicated thread

 

[Bullseye]

Mexicans are being paid less today than they were before NAFTA. How has this helped Mexicans?

TRADE: The Nafta Paradox | Center for Latin American Studies (CLAS)

Your chart doesn't include "today". In fact it doesn't include the last seven years.

 

[Bullseye]

We have every right to regulate things that harm people.

Not that I'm ready to blame poor American consumers who don't exactly have the means to choose higher priced products. Still, I question how much this would raise prices. These are companies that are giving out billions in share buybacks. They can afford to pay their employees more.

And if you force wages equivalent to US standards what happens to all those people that lose their jobs?

 

[Slavister]

We're paying Chinese workers the equivalent of $1 per hour. That's particularly egregious.

How much would be acceptable? Say we only buy from countries that have $8/hour minimum. With labor costs being a major part of overall costs, say all our "cheap" stuff now costs 6 times as much as it does now.

You think that's not going to hurt the American workers?

Would you then demand that we increase American worker wages say 4 times because they would suffer under all this injustice of even higher prices for all the necessities?

But then it would be "cruel" again to the workers of other countries to be paying them "only" $8/hour when Americans are making much higher minimum wages...

And the cycle will continue along with inflation, right?

 

[phattonez]

Your chart doesn't include "today". In fact it doesn't include the last seven years.

If it all improved in the last seven years then we wouldn't be having a border crisis.

 

[aociswundumho]

and it forces production overseas that we could just as easily do ourselves.

But it costs us more if we do it ourselves, therefore making us worse off.

Do you bake your own bread? Make your own clothes? No, you outsource them because it costs you more to do it yourself.

 

[phattonez]

And if you force wages equivalent to US standards what happens to all those people that lose their jobs?

You really think production is going to stop because wages rise? Are you under the assumption that profits are some fixed, unchanging amount?

 

[phattonez]

How much would be acceptable? Say we only buy from countries that have $8/hour minimum. With labor costs being a major part of overall costs, say all our "cheap" stuff now costs 6 times as much as it does now.

You think that's not going to hurt the American workers?

Would you then demand that we increase American worker wages say 4 times because they would suffer under all this injustice of even higher prices for all the necessities?

But then it would be "cruel" again to the workers of other countries to be paying them "only" $8/hour when Americans are making much higher minimum wages...

And the cycle will continue along with inflation, right?

Simply put, this is alarmist. American workers are far more productive, and price increases would be minimized by this, and also offset by increased employment here. You're not looking at the whole picture.

 

[phattonez]

But it costs us more if we do it ourselves, therefore making us worse off.

Do you bake your own bread? Make your own clothes? No, you outsource them because it costs you more to do it yourself.

Not if we're unemploying vast numbers of Americans as a result; and that's exactly what we're doing.

 

[Bullseye]

You really think production is going to stop because wages rise? Are you under the assumption that profits are some fixed, unchanging amount?

The reason the plants are there is to reduce labor costs, if there's no savings the plant is useless.

 

[phattonez]

The reason the plants are there is to reduce labor costs, if there's no savings the plant is useless.

Which means they'd move production back to the US, as they should.

 

[aociswundumho]

Not if we're unemploying vast numbers of Americans as a result

You want to increase wealth, not jobs:

At one of our dinners, Milton recalled traveling to an Asian country in the 1960s and visiting a worksite where a new canal was being built. He was shocked to see that, instead of modern tractors and earth movers, the workers had shovels. He asked why there were so few machines. The government bureaucrat explained: “You don’t understand. This is a jobs program.” To which Milton replied: “Oh, I thought you were trying to build a canal. If it’s jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels.”

 

[Slavister]

Simply put, this is alarmist. American workers are far more productive, and price increases would be minimized by this, and also offset by increased employment here. You're not looking at the whole picture.

Huh? Being more productive does not help - if anything, that hurts employment. Price increases are NOT minimized by increased employment either - just because you have more people at minimal wages does not mean they can afford $30-$60 T-shirts now.

 

[phattonez]

Huh? Being more productive does not help - if anything, that hurts employment. Price increases are NOT minimized by increased employment either - just because you have more people at minimal wages does not mean they can afford $30-$60 T-shirts now.

Going from $0 to $8 an hour means in fact that they can.