A Right To Secede?

[Federalist]

A state that secedes from the United States is no longer part of the United States.

Therefore it is not treasonous for the United States to attack it.

Then after it is defeated, it (what's left of it) will be part of the United States once more.

How wonderful that is, eh?

Yeah, if you're a psychopath.

 

[TML]

The South got no more than what it deserved.

The same thing should happen to any state that is foolish enough to secede in the future (Which I don't believe is going to happen as long as enough Americans know what happened to the South in the Civil War.).

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - John F Kennedy

This isn't the 1860's anymore, in case you haven't noticed.

 

[Jack Hays]

no Sherman and his men burned some private property, and his men killed civilians.

he did not put the war to an early end, the south was winning the war the first 2 years, but the confederacy did not really have a navy, and the north blockaded the southern ports, plus it had no real industrial base, to produce weapons.

the south was an agricultural economy.......not an industrial one.

Sherman's campaign probably shortened the war by a year, and eased Grant's work against Lee as Lee's soldiers deserted at an increasing rate to go home and take care of their suffering families. The fall of Atlanta sealed Lincoln's reelection, and thereby the Confederacy's fate.

 

[TML]

He freed slaves by destroying the slave economy. He thereby freed the whites as well. Sherman was certainly no abolitionist, but he and his army made the continuation of slavery impossible. History moves in mysterious ways.

The ends never justify the means.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Not really. The seceding state has allowed any citizen who wishes to remain a US citizen. If the us the chooses to abridge the rights of those US citizens to vote, well then that's a shame on the US.

The US federal government could pass a law that allowed those in the seceding state to apply for an absentee ballot, as AlabamaPaul said, with the notation "seceded state of Pennsylvania" (for example). Not a big deal at all.

You are just making that up really. The truth is that the Confederacy didnt tolerate Americans loyal to the union. In the Confederacy didnt like Secession anymore than The Union did: East Tennessee Wanted to scede the Confederacy and return to the union, that got 3,000 men arrested. 70%of East Tennessee voted against the Secession form the Union.

The Civil War sentiments of East Tennessee were among the most complex of any region in the nation. Whig support ran high in East Tennessee (especially in Knox and surrounding counties) in the years leading up to the war, as many people in the region were suspicious of the aristocratic Southern planter class that dominated the Southern Democratic party and most southern state legislatures. When Tennessee voted on a referendum calling for secession in February 1861, more than 80% of East Tennesseans voted against it, including majorities in every county except Sullivan and Meigs. In June 1861, nearly 70% of East Tennesseans voted against the Ordinance of Secession (which succeeded statewide), although along with Sullivan and Meigs, there were pro-secession majorities in Monroe, Rhea, Sequatchie, and Polk counties.[20] There were also pro-secession majorities within the cities of Knoxville and Chattanooga, although these cities' respective counties voted decisively against secession.[19][21]


In June 1861, the pro-Unionist East Tennessee Convention met in Greeneville, where it drafted a petition to the Tennessee state legislature demanding that East Tennessee be allowed to form a separate Union-aligned state.[20] The legislature rejected the petition, however, and Tennessee Governor Isham Harris ordered Confederate troops to occupy East Tennessee. Senator Andrew Johnson and Congressman Horace Maynard— who in spite of being from a Confederate state retained their seats in Congress— continuously pressed President Abraham Lincoln to send troops into East Tennessee, and Lincoln subsequently made the "liberation" of East Tennessee a top priority. Knoxville Whig editor William "Parson" Brownlow, who had been one of slavery's most outspoken defenders, attacked secessionism with equal fervor, and embarked on a speaking tour of the Northern states to rally support for East Tennessee.[22] Union troops didn't secure Knoxville until late 1863, however, and Chattanooga was only secured after a series of bloody campaigns late in the same year.


Things wouldnt just be peaceful and you know it. The only reason that you talk about peaceful secession is to sweeten your argument. Its a false position and history shows that peace isnt a reality when it comes to secession. The South was faaaaar from peaceful the first thing that they did was cease a fort the second thing that they did was fire the first shot of the Civil War. Sate secession is a hostile action it makes the claim that a faction can take over a state despite what the population actually wants. Its war so quite trying to deny it.

 

[Jack Hays]

The ends never justify the means.

Nonsense. There is no sportsmanship trophy in war. In Douglas MacArthur's words, there is no substitute for victory. eace

 

[TML]

Nonsense. There is no sportsmanship trophy in war. In Douglas MacArthur's words, there is no substitute for victory. eace

No war was necessary. All other major countries in history ended slavery without war, except America, at the whim of madmen that you seem to worship.

 

[Federalist]

You are just making that up really. The truth is that the Confederacy didnt tolerate Americans loyal to the union. In the Confederacy didnt like Secession anymore than The Union did: East Tennessee Wanted to scede the Confederacy and return to the union, that got 3,000 men arrested. 70%of East Tennessee voted against the Secession form the Union.

The Civil War sentiments of East Tennessee were among the most complex of any region in the nation. Whig support ran high in East Tennessee (especially in Knox and surrounding counties) in the years leading up to the war, as many people in the region were suspicious of the aristocratic Southern planter class that dominated the Southern Democratic party and most southern state legislatures. When Tennessee voted on a referendum calling for secession in February 1861, more than 80% of East Tennesseans voted against it, including majorities in every county except Sullivan and Meigs. In June 1861, nearly 70% of East Tennesseans voted against the Ordinance of Secession (which succeeded statewide), although along with Sullivan and Meigs, there were pro-secession majorities in Monroe, Rhea, Sequatchie, and Polk counties.[20] There were also pro-secession majorities within the cities of Knoxville and Chattanooga, although these cities' respective counties voted decisively against secession.[19][21]


In June 1861, the pro-Unionist East Tennessee Convention met in Greeneville, where it drafted a petition to the Tennessee state legislature demanding that East Tennessee be allowed to form a separate Union-aligned state.[20] The legislature rejected the petition, however, and Tennessee Governor Isham Harris ordered Confederate troops to occupy East Tennessee. Senator Andrew Johnson and Congressman Horace Maynard— who in spite of being from a Confederate state retained their seats in Congress— continuously pressed President Abraham Lincoln to send troops into East Tennessee, and Lincoln subsequently made the "liberation" of East Tennessee a top priority. Knoxville Whig editor William "Parson" Brownlow, who had been one of slavery's most outspoken defenders, attacked secessionism with equal fervor, and embarked on a speaking tour of the Northern states to rally support for East Tennessee.[22] Union troops didn't secure Knoxville until late 1863, however, and Chattanooga was only secured after a series of bloody campaigns late in the same year.


Things wouldnt just be peaceful and you know it. The only reason that you talk about peaceful secession is to sweeten your argument. Its a false position and history shows that peace isnt a reality when it comes to secession. The South was faaaaar from peaceful the first thing that they did was cease a fort the second thing that they did was fire the first shot of the Civil War. Sate secession is a hostile action it makes the claim that a faction can take over a state despite what the population actually wants. Its war so quite trying to deny it.

I don't agree with the South, and I'm not talking about the South. It's 2013, in case you haven't noticed, and I'm talking about a state PEACEFULLY exiting the union treaty.

 

[Master PO]

A state that secedes from the United States is no longer part of the United States.

Therefore it is not treasonous for the United States to attack it.

Then after it is defeated, it (what's left of it) will be part of the United States once more.

How wonderful that is, eh?

then the u.s would be denouncing its founding principles.

Experimental self-government. — Our national character is emphasized in our ability to govern ourselves. Such ability did not develop over night; neither can it be acquired for the asking. No other nation has attained self-government in equal measure with the United States. The Colonies struggled 150 years before they had established a sufficient foundation to take the step that led to the "Great Experiment."

 

[Master PO]

Sherman's campaign probably shortened the war by a year, and eased Grant's work against Lee as Lee's soldiers deserted at an increasing rate to go home and take care of their suffering families. The fall of Atlanta sealed Lincoln's reelection, and thereby the Confederacy's fate.

i will not disagree, it hurt and shorten the war, but there was not early ending, after the shift of battles it still took 2 years.

 

[Master PO]

The South was foolish to think that it could win a war against the North.

It paid a heavy price for that foolishness.

But no more than what it deserved.

you will note i stated the south was winning the war, until after Gettysburg, and Lincoln changed commanders many times.

it was not until the south had used up its limited resources, that it began to lose......remember Gettysburg is in ...Pennsylvania

 

[Perotista]

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - John F Kennedy

This isn't the 1860's anymore, in case you haven't noticed.

View attachment 67144713

Yeah, this is definitely not 1860. If a state even came close today to a vote on secession, you know all the major news outlets would be covering it. I would assume even before any vote took place in what ever state capital, the 82nd ABN DIV would be placed on standby and that states National Guard called up to Federal duty thus depriving the governor of its use. I can envision several scenarios playing out. None that would allow a state to leave.

Then you guys need to also remember, back in 1860 no one considered themselves Americans like we do today. Back then they were Georgians, Mississippians, New Yorkers, Marylanders etc. Back in 1860 close to everyone in a state was born and raised there with a few exceptions. Today, transplants are all over. Sometimes I think Georgia has more transplants living here than native Georgians.

I just do not see where secession would ever come up again. That is unless this nation finally falls into that financial abyss due to the ever rising debt and then it will probably be everyone for themselves.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

I don't agree with the South, and I'm not talking about the South. It's 2013, in case you haven't noticed, and I'm talking about a state PEACEFULLY exiting the union treaty.

What state is going to actually try to secede in 2013? :shrug:

 

[Master PO]

I just do not see where secession would ever come up again. That is unless this nation finally falls into that financial abyss due to the ever rising debt and then it will probably be everyone for themselves.

that or states, finally get feed-up with the federal government overreaching power into their state, and internal state business.

 

[Master PO]

What state is going to actually try to secede in 2013? :shrug:

we are not discussing that it is going to happen, but the illegality of it.

do the people have a right to self government...yes they do.

the federal government as no authority in state government.

 

[Bonzai]

you will note i stated the south was winning the war, until after Gettysburg, and Lincoln changed commanders many times.

it was not until the south had used up its limited resources, that it began to lose......remember Gettysburg is in ...Pennsylvania

Your narrative is leaning towards what conclusion ? The North could have been forced to sue for peace ?...................

 

[Master PO]

Your narrative is leaning towards what conclusion ? The North could have been forced to sue for peace ?...................

even Washington. was at one time put under threat by the south

what i have stated is true, but without an industrial base, i dont believe the south could have won, unless maybe it would have be possible to procure food, arms and ammunition abroad...the u.s. navy put an end to that.

 

[Master PO]

question? what would happen if the federal government took over a state?

it would have to removed all its elected leaders of the people of that state, and put it under military guard.

what would other states think?............if the government can do it to them, it can do it to us.

other states would rally to the state in question.

 

[Jack Hays]

No war was necessary. All other major countries in history ended slavery without war, except America, at the whim of madmen that you seem to worship.

No war would have been necessary except for the fanaticism and treason of the Slave Power aristocracy.:shock:

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

we are not discussing that it is going to happen, but the illegality of it.

do the people have a right to self government...yes they do.

the federal government as no authority in state government.

So instead of fighting for your rights you guys want to just leave as if that will work? Think about it this is 2013 what will a State accomplish by trying to leave the US Government? Do you seriously think that the rest of the country will just say "OK"? What about nuclear arsenals nuclear power plants, Military bases, Infrastructure , etc etc? Dont you think that tax payers are going to be a little pissed off about losing those things? And what about great Aunt Susan that lives in that State or the Grandchildren dont you think that their family might want to have a say so about the welfare of their loved ones? ANd what about the citizens that disagreed with secession? Just **** them since they didnt agree with the secessionists?

Come on you guys are really not looking at the entire picture and are just having a cartoon conversation here. Its completely funny to watch you guys acting serious and whats sad is that even though it seems like it you guys are Poes you are not actually Poes. And that just too much for the mind to accept.

 

[haymarket]

US citizens can vote from anywhere in the world by absentee ballot whether they maintain a residence in the States or not...

the people who used to be American citizens living in one of the states but now have lost that distinction because their state seceded - where exactly do they both register to vote and cast their ballot for president and electors?

 

[haymarket]

Not really. The seceding state has allowed any citizen who wishes to remain a US citizen. If the us the chooses to abridge the rights of those US citizens to vote, well then that's a shame on the US.

The US federal government could pass a law that allowed those in the seceding state to apply for an absentee ballot, as AlabamaPaul said, with the notation "seceded state of Pennsylvania" (for example). Not a big deal at all.

With each post your response is more and more absurd. The seceding state has taken the direct action which then deprives citizens of rights and privileges. And the utter drop dead insanity of it all is that you insist that this is somehow someway the responsibility of the federal government to clean otu the states diaper and restore the deprived citizens to a state of cleanliness?!?!?!?!?!?!?

This would be considered as utter insanity by the Mad Hatter in Wonderland.

 

[haymarket]

By the way, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "treason". Treason is defined as making war upon any of the united states. A state that peacefully withdraws from the union treaty is making war on no one.

Your dishonest hyperbole is duly noted.

Yes, it is treason and it is war. Right wing whackos would diminish the size and power of the USA and deprive Americans of rights and privileges. They would effectively do what Nazi Germany could not do. They would do what Fascist Italy could not do. They would do what the Communist Soviet Union could not do.

Yes, it would be treason and it would be war and those seceding would be the enemy of the USA and its people.

 

[TML]

Yeah, this is definitely not 1860. If a state even came close today to a vote on secession, you know all the major news outlets would be covering it. I would assume even before any vote took place in what ever state capital, the 82nd ABN DIV would be placed on standby and that states National Guard called up to Federal duty thus depriving the governor of its use.

True, and they can remain on standby I suppose, but that's a slippery slope concerning possible intimidation of the vote. If the vote came up in favor of a peaceful secession then the State Guard wouldn't need to be called by the governor anyway, unless force would be used against the will of the peoples vote.

Then you guys need to also remember, back in 1860 no one considered themselves Americans like we do today. Back then they were Georgians, Mississippians, New Yorkers, Marylanders etc.

I'm still a Texan also

I just do not see where secession would ever come up again. That is unless this nation finally falls into that financial abyss due to the ever rising debt and then it will probably be everyone for themselves.

Except I doubt it would be every man for himself. Some state economies are doing a lot better than others. In the event of an economic collapse, state independence might be the perfect remedy against the financial abyss the country is sinking into with perpetual wars. And those kind of imperialist policies are what have historically led to loss of liberties at home, and we can see the beginning of that with contemplating the assassination of American citizens whether at home or abroad, indefinite detention without trial, warrantless wire taps, etc. ... its just about prudence. I can envision several as well.

 

[haymarket]

no it does not, you have freedom of movement, you are not restrained, just as a person can move from the state of California to avoid high personal taxes and state regulation,you can vote with your feet, and choose your own direction and move.

It is my property.

It is my home.

It is my state.

You insult me and good people everywhere by telling us unless we pucker up and kiss the right cheek of extremists who would rape our rights and can only save ourselves by fleeing the state like guilty felons that we lose our rights.

SHAME ON YOU SIR. SHAME ON YOU.