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A Right To Secede?

You're mixing more nonsense in.

Actually it is called using verifiable evidence to support ones claims. You should try it some time. I provided your own posts and your own words in which YOU took a position of expanding state power while I took a position against it.

Apparently by the standards you use, that would make you far more of a statist than myself.
 
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and when the founders created the constitution, 3 men wrote of it and explained it to the population as well as those MEN would be voting to ratify that constitution, and since they read federalist 39 which states what I said about being sovereign and independent STATES, AND BEING IN THE UNION IS VOLUNARY.
Federalist 39 describes a hybrid federal/national Government, the power to govern must be derived from the consent of the people. and goes further to describe that Representatives elected from the people are the administrators of the government.

do you have any evidence from the founders stating secession is illegal while they lived?
Thats what that perceptual things was about. And that unite or die concept.

how is seceding be destroying the constitution, it would still exist for those 49 states.
The Constitution is the compact by which the Union stands. The main point of the Constitution is the Union of the States as a single country. To secede from the Constitution the mere act then is destroying the compact/Constitution.

no... what I am saying is you have a natural right to self government, not imposed government.
I said nothing about imposing anything.

if a state is a sovereign body, independent of the rest, and the people of that state are entitled to self government, ...meaning they can chose any form of government they wish, when they could institution a different form of government which is incompatible with the union such a move would mean secession is legal.
That is a naive assumption and it wont work. The Constitution forbids any other form of Government other than a Republican form of Government. Part of of the reason for a new Constitution was to establish the powersa of the Federal Government and its capability to enact Constitutional law. Your little naive excuse for secession would have worked under the capacity of the first Constitution but not the one we have now.

I have already posted were it says the states may form their own government, ...and if that government formed in not republican, that state cannot be in the union.
Yes the States have the right to Government themselves under the model of Republican form of Government that they choose. But the Constitution is explicit that there is basic guideline so that the Federal and State Governments work together like a well oiled machine. Of course though there are elements that the Constitution forbids the State Governments to do which the Constitution lists. The States are bound by Constitutional law as they agreed to do when they gave up the main aspects of sovereignty. The States maintained though many other aspects of sovereignty, not the important ones that would make that the States separate nations.

Among the most formidable of the obstacles which the new Constitution will have to encounter may readily be distinguished the obvious interest of a certain class of men in every State to resist all changes which may hazard a diminution of the power, emolument, and consequence of the offices they hold under the State establishments; and the perverted ambition of another class of men, who will either hope to aggrandize themselves by the confusions of their country, or will flatter themselves with fairer prospects of elevation from the subdivision of the empire into several partial confederacies than from its union under one government. Alexander Hamilton Federalist No. 1

To promote a Sates right for secession is to ignore the arguments raised in the Federalist papers. As I pointed out before it would be disingenuous to assert that the Federalist papers which argue for States joining together in a NEW union to be proof of just the opposite.

This doctrine will, in all probability, be gradually propagated, till it has votaries enough to countenance an open avowal of it. For nothing can be more evident, to those who are able to take an enlarged view of the subject, than the alternative of an adoption of the new Constitution or a dismemberment of the Union. It will therefore be of use to begin by examining the advantages of that Union, the certain evils, and the probable dangers, to which every State will be exposed from its dissolution.

Secession is an argument against the union and ultimately (and more importantly) against the Constitution. Even if the US Government would become vile and everything that the Constitution stands against, if "We the people" stand with the Constitution then "WE" can put the vileness to death as a united front, a power greater than regimes and the enemy of all dictatorships, the actual place where all power lies with the people. By contrast Sate secession does not unite the the people as a whole and it does not adhere to the US Constitution, it instead welcomes division of the people, which is called divide and conquer.

You keep arguing that the States have the right to secede even if that were true it would not be what the founders wanted us to do. The founders make it extremely clear that the Constitution and the union were the great experiment and was and is worth dying for. State secession is for cowards that have no backbone no unity with "We the people".


My assertion here is either you are American or you are not. The Founders were Americans foremost not Virginians or whatever. Members of my family gave their lives for this country, they didnt die so that a bunch of discontents could dismember this country. I know where I stand in my patriotism and where the line is drawn and when I will bear arms to defend these shores form invaders and from those domestic forces that wish to destroy us from within.

What you cant seem to understand is that I by no means support corruption of the Constitution, I have children and would put my life on the line to make sure that the Constitution remains a valid centerpiece of out country. And it is obvious that there are millions of like minded people that agree that America is something to fight for. The State secessionists are a pimple on our ass and nothing more. If blows come to pass Americans will not be fighting to secede their States they will be fighting to save America. That is what is meant by "UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL"

united-we-stand.jpg
 
and when the founders created the constitution, 3 men wrote of it and explained it to the population as well as those MEN would be voting to ratify that constitution, and since they read federalist 39 which states what I said about being sovereign and independent STATES, AND BEING IN THE UNION IS VOLUNARY.
Federalist 39 describes a hybrid federal/national Government, the power to govern must be derived from the consent of the people. and goes further to describe that Representatives elected from the people are the administrators of the government.

do you have any evidence from the founders stating secession is illegal while they lived?
Thats what that perceptual things was about. And that unite or die concept.

how is seceding be destroying the constitution, it would still exist for those 49 states.
The Constitution is the compact by which the Union stands. The main point of the Constitution is the Union of the States as a single country. To secede from the Constitution the mere act then is destroying the compact/Constitution.

no... what I am saying is you have a natural right to self government, not imposed government.
I said nothing about imposing anything.

if a state is a sovereign body, independent of the rest, and the people of that state are entitled to self government, ...meaning they can chose any form of government they wish, when they could institution a different form of government which is incompatible with the union such a move would mean secession is legal.
That is a naive assumption and it wont work. The Constitution forbids any other form of Government other than a Republican form of Government. Part of of the reason for a new Constitution was to establish the powersa of the Federal Government and its capability to enact Constitutional law. Your little naive excuse for secession would have worked under the capacity of the first Constitution but not the one we have now.

I have already posted were it says the states may form their own government, ...and if that government formed in not republican, that state cannot be in the union.
Yes the States have the right to Government themselves under the model of Republican form of Government that they choose. But the Constitution is explicit that there is basic guideline so that the Federal and State Governments work together like a well oiled machine. Of course though there are elements that the Constitution forbids the State Governments to do which the Constitution lists. The States are bound by Constitutional law as they agreed to do when they gave up the main aspects of sovereignty. The States maintained though many other aspects of sovereignty, not the important ones that would make that the States separate nations.

Among the most formidable of the obstacles which the new Constitution will have to encounter may readily be distinguished the obvious interest of a certain class of men in every State to resist all changes which may hazard a diminution of the power, emolument, and consequence of the offices they hold under the State establishments; and the perverted ambition of another class of men, who will either hope to aggrandize themselves by the confusions of their country, or will flatter themselves with fairer prospects of elevation from the subdivision of the empire into several partial confederacies than from its union under one government. Alexander Hamilton Federalist No. 1

To promote a Sates right for secession is to ignore the arguments raised in the Federalist papers. As I pointed out before it would be disingenuous to assert that the Federalist papers which argue for States joining together in a NEW union to be proof of just the opposite.

This doctrine will, in all probability, be gradually propagated, till it has votaries enough to countenance an open avowal of it. For nothing can be more evident, to those who are able to take an enlarged view of the subject, than the alternative of an adoption of the new Constitution or a dismemberment of the Union. It will therefore be of use to begin by examining the advantages of that Union, the certain evils, and the probable dangers, to which every State will be exposed from its dissolution.

Secession is an argument against the union and ultimately (and more importantly) against the Constitution. Even if the US Government would become vile and everything that the Constitution stands against, if "We the people" stand with the Constitution then "WE" can put the vileness to death as a united front, a power greater than regimes and the enemy of all dictatorships, the actual place where all power lies with the people. By contrast Sate secession does not unite the the people as a whole and it does not adhere to the US Constitution, it instead welcomes division of the people, which is called divide and conquer.

You keep arguing that the States have the right to secede even if that were true it would not be what the founders wanted us to do. The founders make it extremely clear that the Constitution and the union were the great experiment and was and is worth dying for. State secession is for cowards that have no backbone no unity with "We the people".


My assertion here is either you are American or you are not. The Founders were Americans foremost not Virginians or whatever. Members of my family gave their lives for this country, they didnt die so that a bunch of discontents could dismember this country. I know where I stand in my patriotism and where the line is drawn and when I will bear arms to defend these shores form invaders and from those domestic forces that wish to destroy us from within.

What you cant seem to understand is that I by no means support corruption of the Constitution, I have children and would put my life on the line to make sure that the Constitution remains a valid centerpiece of out country. And it is obvious that there are millions of like minded people that agree that America is something to fight for. The State secessionists are a pimple on our ass and nothing more. If blows come to pass Americans will not be fighting to secede their States they will be fighting to save America. That is what is meant by "UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL"

united-we-stand.jpg
 
Stark denial of the facts just makes you look like a loon. Your stuck on this term "compulsory contract" which is a farce and a strawman.

A most excellent and very true observation. The poster in question almost always starts out with a false premise of his own design and own invention - the "straw man" as you have properly identified - and then pontificates about it as if it were the be all and end all which determines all other subsequent facts in the discussion. It is a most dishonest debate tactic and is easily exposed.

Thank you for pointing this out.
 
Nice text dump. Did you have something in it you wanted to point to and argue? It's evident you didn't really understand it, otherwise you probably would not have posted it.

The analysis provided in that passage is weak, as the states are always sovereign; sovereignty isnt a think that is split, but resides entirely with one authority... by definition.

Also, strictly speaking, contrary to what Bradley said, we don't have a "national government" but rather a "federal government", with limited authority. There is a difference. Beyond that distinction, Bradley got it correct, and nothing said there in conflicts with what was said. Also nothing in that dump has any bearing on secession.




I really hope English is not your native language.



There is no "natural right to invoke revolution" being claimed here. It is not revolution, as the leaving one one state does not overthrow the U.S form of government, nor the federal government, nor other state governments.

The ability to leave and protect those natural rights .... is.. part and parcel to those natural rights themselves, the most fundamental sovereignty there is. The federal government telling us it has legitimate authority over, and de facto ownership of, our bodies is a violation of those natural rights, and our form of government.










How can you say no one said anything about involuntary and compulsory, and then go and say the states are "compelled" to do what the people demand? Do you even listen to yourself?

"The people", as recognized in by this country's foundation, are recognized as being generally synonymous with the states themselves, and not some reference to the national mass populace. Collectively as a group there are no rights. Individually there are unalienable natural rights. And as a state, it is the expression of the right and freedom of the people within that state, as the sovereign authority of the state. This is how we're deliberately structured to prohibit just the totalitarian obscenities we see every day coming out of the criminals in Washington.


We are not in a government that is compelled to do what the people demand; that is a democracy, and we are definitely and deliberately not that.

bert.jpg


Bwahaha excuse me for actually trying to debate with you again. Goodbye.
 
Actually it is called using verifiable evidence to support ones claims. You should try it some time. I provided your own posts and your own words in which YOU took a position of expanding state power while I took a position against it.

Apparently by the standards you use, that would make you far more of a statist than myself.

"A claim" is of the type of statement such as, "the country is founded on the view of sovereign states", and that I have backed up with references.

That you exhibit a statist ideology is a general recognition of your arguments, a statement, and I you first claimed that I did not state that ideology, which I did. I've seen you support the federal authority in regard to secession, and also the 2nd Amendment, as well as your overall arguments in regard to Constitutional discussions. Meanwhile there is no such position to my arguments involving any sort of "expanding" of state power, as the state power is the state power that has existed since this country's formation, and the function of the states having sovereign authority.

THe way for you to counter such a statement, is to say something to the effect of, "I am not advocating such-and-such, because I believe such-and-such", perhaps even referencing your previous statements and how they don't support that view (such as statism) despite the appearance the do so. The claim that my own position is 'expanding' on state power is just not reasonable given the history and facts.

It is not an appropriate way to counter that statement by pulling out the definition of "ideology" and trying to advance some contrived argument that you don't exhibition any ideology, meanwhile conspicuously skirting the issue of what ideology you do actually exhibition -- making your overall approach an enormous deflection without any provided reasoning.
 
bert.jpg


Bwahaha excuse me for actually trying to debate with you again. Goodbye.

Dumping a mass of text, which you do not analyze, or dissect, in any fashion, is not "debate", and even less so since you clearly did not understand those text dumps, and they did not serve your position.

No, we are not a 'mixed government". We have a federal government formed by the confederation of states, with those powers of the government derived from ceded authority of the states, and not any sort of direct sovereignty of the government itself.


(Sesame Street is not any more effective than throwing a handful of smileys at the wall).
 
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Dumping a mass of text, which you do not analyze, or dissect, in any fashion, is not "debate", and even less so since you clearly did not understand those text dumps, and they did not serve your position.

No, we are not a 'mixed government". We have a federal government formed by the confederation of states, with those powers of the government derived from ceded authority of the states, and not any sort of direct sovereignty of the government itself.


(Sesame Street is not any more effect than is throwing a handful of smileys at the wall).

The point of text is for you to read it.

We are not a mixed Government? bwhahahahaa

The Federalist Papers - THOMAS (Library of Congress)
Federalist No. 40

The Powers of the Convention to Form a Mixed Government Examined and Sustained
From the New York Packet.
Friday, January 18, 1788.
Author: James Madison
To the People of the State of New York:
THE SECOND point to be examined is, whether the convention were authorized to frame and propose this mixed Constitution.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Federalist #39

The proposed Constitution, therefore, [even when tested by the rules laid down by its antagonists,][1] is, in strictness, neither a national nor a federal Constitution, but a composition of both. In its foundation it is federal, not national; in the sources from which the ordinary powers of the government are drawn, it is partly federal and partly national; in the operation of these powers, it is national, not federal; in the extent of them, again, it is federal, not national; and, finally, in the authoritative mode of introducing amendments, it is neither wholly federal nor wholly national.




PUBLIUS

The Federalist No. 39

Conformity of the Plan to Republican Principles

Independent Journal
Wednesday, January 16, 1788
[James Madison]

In requiring more than a majority, and particularly in computing the proportion by States, not by citizens, it departs from the national and advances towards the federal character; in rendering the concurrence of less than the whole number of States sufficient, it loses again the federal and partakes of the national character.

The argument for State secession relies on the illusion that the Government is a federal federation of State Nations, but the fact is that American style of Government is a mix of federal and national elements. Many elements of State sovereignty were nationalized by the US Constitution. It is a form of Government that is run by We the people in a very special way. This nation is unique in may detailed ways. Your over simplification and stark ignorance of those details has tilted your hand severely. We now see your cards and realize that you were merely bluffing your way through. But then we already new that you were bluffing but with your own words you outed that bluff. Good work!

BTW I still did not assert that the Government has supreme power since such power is reserved by the people. Our Government is actually "We the people" not some mysterious group, like what you keep implying.
 
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"A claim" is of the type of statement such as, "the country is founded on the view of sovereign states", and that I have backed up with references.

References!?!?!? :doh Like vague and questionable interpretations of what you claim are my views according to your own skewed readings of them? :shock: What a joke. What a sad and pathetic joke. :roll:

Here is how the game of debate is played. You make a charge. You back it up with verifiable evidence. That comes in the form of my exact words that you can either reproduce or provide al ink to like I did with you regarding your support of a state expansion of power over Michigan municipalities.

Not your skewed and biased interpretation of what you believe I support.

Once again, you start out a post with a false premise and thus every word after falls and is irrelevant.
 
Federalist 39 describes a hybrid federal/national Government, the power to govern must be derived from the consent of the people. and goes further to describe that Representatives elected from the people are the administrators of the government.

Thats what that perceptual things was about. And that unite or die concept.

The Constitution is the compact by which the Union stands. The main point of the Constitution is the Union of the States as a single country. To secede from the Constitution the mere act then is destroying the compact/Constitution.

I said nothing about imposing anything.

That is a naive assumption and it wont work. The Constitution forbids any other form of Government other than a Republican form of Government. Part of of the reason for a new Constitution was to establish the powersa of the Federal Government and its capability to enact Constitutional law. Your little naive excuse for secession would have worked under the capacity of the first Constitution but not the one we have now.

Yes the States have the right to Government themselves under the model of Republican form of Government that they choose. But the Constitution is explicit that there is basic guideline so that the Federal and State Governments work together like a well oiled machine. Of course though there are elements that the Constitution forbids the State Governments to do which the Constitution lists. The States are bound by Constitutional law as they agreed to do when they gave up the main aspects of sovereignty. The States maintained though many other aspects of sovereignty, not the important ones that would make that the States separate nations.

Among the most formidable of the obstacles which the new Constitution will have to encounter may readily be distinguished the obvious interest of a certain class of men in every State to resist all changes which may hazard a diminution of the power, emolument, and consequence of the offices they hold under the State establishments; and the perverted ambition of another class of men, who will either hope to aggrandize themselves by the confusions of their country, or will flatter themselves with fairer prospects of elevation from the subdivision of the empire into several partial confederacies than from its union under one government. Alexander Hamilton Federalist No. 1

To promote a Sates right for secession is to ignore the arguments raised in the Federalist papers. As I pointed out before it would be disingenuous to assert that the Federalist papers which argue for States joining together in a NEW union to be proof of just the opposite.

This doctrine will, in all probability, be gradually propagated, till it has votaries enough to countenance an open avowal of it. For nothing can be more evident, to those who are able to take an enlarged view of the subject, than the alternative of an adoption of the new Constitution or a dismemberment of the Union. It will therefore be of use to begin by examining the advantages of that Union, the certain evils, and the probable dangers, to which every State will be exposed from its dissolution.

Secession is an argument against the union and ultimately (and more importantly) against the Constitution. Even if the US Government would become vile and everything that the Constitution stands against, if "We the people" stand with the Constitution then "WE" can put the vileness to death as a united front, a power greater than regimes and the enemy of all dictatorships, the actual place where all power lies with the people. By contrast Sate secession does not unite the the people as a whole and it does not adhere to the US Constitution, it instead welcomes division of the people, which is called divide and conquer.

You keep arguing that the States have the right to secede even if that were true it would not be what the founders wanted us to do. The founders make it extremely clear that the Constitution and the union were the great experiment and was and is worth dying for. State secession is for cowards that have no backbone no unity with "We the people".


My assertion here is either you are American or you are not. The Founders were Americans foremost not Virginians or whatever. Members of my family gave their lives for this country, they didnt die so that a bunch of discontents could dismember this country. I know where I stand in my patriotism and where the line is drawn and when I will bear arms to defend these shores form invaders and from those domestic forces that wish to destroy us from within.

What you cant seem to understand is that I by no means support corruption of the Constitution, I have children and would put my life on the line to make sure that the Constitution remains a valid centerpiece of out country. And it is obvious that there are millions of like minded people that agree that America is something to fight for. The State secessionists are a pimple on our ass and nothing more. If blows come to pass Americans will not be fighting to secede their States they will be fighting to save America. That is what is meant by "UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL"

united-we-stand.jpg



federalist 39--"Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act"

i stated earlier that the people have a RIGHT to self government, and in having self government ,they as a people can create any kind of government for their state they wish, to which the founders state it must be republican, and if not ,that state cannot be in the union, as with self government the people of that state can create democracy it is with their realm of power to do so, but again that form of government cannot be in the union.

Yet it is not to be understood, that its interposition would be justifiable, if the people of a state should determine to retire from the Union, whether they adopted another or retained the same form of government, or if they should, with the express intention of seceding, expunge the representative system from their code, and thereby incapacitate themselves from concurring according to the mode now prescribed, in the choice of certain public officers of the United States.

The principle of representation, although certainly the wisest and best, is not essential to the being of a republic, but to continue a member of the Union, it must be preserved, and therefore the guarantee must be so construed. It depends on the state itself to retain or abolish the principle of representation, because it depends on itself whether it will continue a member of the Union. To deny this right would be inconsistent with the principle on which all our political systems are founded, which is, that the people have in all cases, a right to determine how they will be governed.


to say to a people of a state yes, you have a right to self government, ....however that right is limited, and it must be republican.......then its not self government, its imposed government ,because they people are dictated to what kind of government it has to be, that is not a right, because rights are not controlled by the STATE.

federalist 1 you post talks about faction, ..which is case here from this line ...the perverted ambition of another class of men, who will either hope to aggrandize themselves by the confusions of their country, or will flatter themselves with fairer prospects of elevation from the subdivision of the empire "...there is nothing here about the peaceful secession of a state.

its a warning ,about men who would use state secession, as Hamilton puts it......"flatter themselves with fairer prospects of elevation


when the federalist papers were written it was to promote the creation of the union through ratification of that constitution, however it explaining the federalist papers to the people and men who would ratify that constitution, it stated to them telling them that a state does not give up their sovereignty, power of their ability to leave the union, as Madison states clearly in federal 39---"is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act"

what does ...bound by its own voluntary act mean to you?

secession is an avenue to the people of a state or states, that if they choose to separate themselves from a government that no longer listens to those people, they can throw it off, before taking the act of aggression thru revolution....the founders recognized the power of the people to throw off governments.

i believe you are correct the founders would not like to have states seek secession, however they reorganize it as a fundamental right , against the tyranny of government.

you will find in early america, people call themselves citizens of their state, not country and respected the powers of each state and the rights of the people to administrator that state.

you keep telling me that secession is destroying the constitution and you believe in the principles of that constitution, ...yet you act as though the federal government ought to violate those same founding principles that you claim to uphold by violating state sovereignty, its power, the peoples right to self government...and use force to keep a people bound, to a government it no longer wishes to be part of.

this defines to very core of liberty, ...to say you will be part off something and if you choose a different path thru peace.....death and destruction awaits you.
 
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References!?!?!? :doh Like vague and questionable interpretations of what you claim are my views according to your own skewed readings of them? :shock: What a joke. What a sad and pathetic joke. :roll:

Here is how the game of debate is played. You make a charge. You back it up with verifiable evidence. That comes in the form of my exact words that you can either reproduce or provide al ink to like I did with you regarding your support of a state expansion of power over Michigan municipalities.

Not your skewed and biased interpretation of what you believe I support.

Once again, you start out a post with a false premise and thus every word after falls and is irrelevant.

Oh, come on haymarket. You are anti-liberty, and you know it. Don't bust trip's chops for pointing it out.

You don't even believe that people have natural rights.
 
The argument for State secession relies on the illusion that the Government is a federal federation of State Nations, but the fact is that American style of Government is a mix of federal and national elements. Many elements of State sovereignty were nationalized by the US Constitution. It is a form of Government that is run by We the people in a very special way. This nation is unique in may detailed ways. Your over simplification and stark ignorance of those details has tilted your hand severely. We now see your cards and realize that you were merely bluffing your way through. But then we already new that you were bluffing but with your own words you outed that bluff. Good work!

BTW I still did not assert that the Government has supreme power since such power is reserved by the people. Our Government is actually "We the people" not some mysterious group, like what you keep implying.


Neither Federalist 39 nor 40 indicate that the "mixed" aspect of a national government is anything more than operational function, with the operational authority for that function originating from the states themselves. This is no sort "illusion" at all, and is nothing more than I've recognized, that the states 'ceded' power to the federal government, but not that the federal government has any sovereign power of its own.

Nothing indicated in these Federalists conflicts with this perspective of operational authority, but rather support it.

In Federalist 40, Madison definitively indicates:

What are these principles? Do they require that, in the establishment of the Constitution, the States should be regarded as distinct and independent sovereigns? They are so regarded by the Constitution proposed.

Here Madison indicates that, despite the transfer of further powers to a "national" government, that the principles of this country still involve the states being "distinct and independent sovereigns".

Madison later indicates:

The truth is, that the great principles of the Constitution proposed by the convention may be considered less as absolutely new, than as the expansion of principles which are found in the articles of Confederation. The misfortune under the latter system has been, that these principles are so feeble and confined as to justify all the charges of inefficiency which have been urged against it, and to require a degree of enlargement which gives to the new system the aspect of an entire transformation of the old.​

Thus, the Constitution was not a break from the philosophy and application of the Articles of Confederation, but rather only the specific and limited expansion of authority ceded to the federal government so as to make the union capable of exercising those necessary functions in the name of the states. In fact, expressing this understanding is arguably the purpose of Federalist 40.

By this, "in order to form a more perfect union", obviously from the Constitution, is not a different form of government philosophy, nor a different operational authority breaking from state sovereignty, but rather is only the specific expansion of that ceded operational function coming from the states themselves.
 
federalist 39--"Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act"
Shame on you for taking that out of context quote and pretending it proves anything for you.

i stated earlier that the people have a RIGHT to self government, and in having self government ,they as a people can create any kind of government for their state they wish, to which the founders state it must be republican, and if not ,that state cannot be in the union, as with self government the people of that state can create democracy it is with their realm of power to do so, but again that form of government cannot be in the union.

Yet it is not to be understood, that its interposition would be justifiable, if the people of a state should determine to retire from the Union, whether they adopted another or retained the same form of government, or if they should, with the express intention of seceding, expunge the representative system from their code, and thereby incapacitate themselves from concurring according to the mode now prescribed, in the choice of certain public officers of the United States.

The principle of representation, although certainly the wisest and best, is not essential to the being of a republic, but to continue a member of the Union, it must be preserved, and therefore the guarantee must be so construed. It depends on the state itself to retain or abolish the principle of representation, because it depends on itself whether it will continue a member of the Union. To deny this right would be inconsistent with the principle on which all our political systems are founded, which is, that the people have in all cases, a right to determine how they will be governed.
Rawle provides no support for his assertion. He simply asserts there is a right to secession and moves on much like you have.
WILLIAM RAWLE is a obscure nobody and not one of the founders. He was also a very biased disunionist which means quoting him means nothing.


to say to a people of a state yes, you have a right to self government, ....however that right is limited, and it must be republican.......then its not self government, its imposed government ,because they people are dictated to what kind of government it has to be, that is not a right, because rights are not controlled by the STATE.

Call it what you want but I call it Constitutional law. It doesnt matter if you disagree with the Constitution at all really, thanx for your opinion.

federalist 1 you post talks about faction, ..which is case here from this line ...the perverted ambition of another class of men, who will either hope to aggrandize themselves by the confusions of their country, or will flatter themselves with fairer prospects of elevation from the subdivision of the empire "...there is nothing here about the peaceful secession of a state.

its a warning ,about men who would use state secession, as Hamilton puts it......"flatter themselves with fairer prospects of elevation


when the federalist papers were written it was to promote the creation of the union through ratification of that constitution, however it explaining the federalist papers to the people and men who would ratify that constitution, it stated to them telling them that a state does not give up their sovereignty, power of their ability to leave the union, as Madison states clearly in federal 39---"is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act"

what does ...bound by its own voluntary act mean to you?

secession is an avenue to the people of a state or states, that if they choose to separate themselves from a government that no longer listens to those people, they can throw it off, before taking the act of aggression thru revolution....the founders recognized the power of the people to throw off governments.

i believe you are correct the founders would not like to have states seek secession, however they reorganize it as a fundamental right , against the tyranny of government.

you will find in early america, people call themselves citizens of their state, not country and respected the powers of each state and the rights of the people to administrator that state.

you keep telling me that secession is destroying the constitution and you believe in the principles of that constitution, ...yet you act as though the federal government ought to violate those same founding principles that you claim to uphold by violating state sovereignty, its power, the peoples right to self government...and use force to keep a people bound, to a government it no longer wishes to be part of.

this defines to very core of liberty, ...to say you will be part off something and if you choose a different path thru peace.....death and destruction awaits you.
Nice how you ignore the very point that State sovereignty is NOT 100% under the US Constitution. lol you can just keep repeating your opinions until the cattle come home but it only satisfies your own beliefs not the Constitution.

The definition of our Government is self Government, denying a State the right to secede does nothing to change that fact.
 
Neither Federalist 39 nor 40 indicate that the "mixed" aspect of a national government is anything more than operational function, with the operational authority for that function originating from the states themselves. This is no sort "illusion" at all, and is nothing more than I've recognized, that the states 'ceded' power to the federal government, but not that the federal government has any sovereign power of its own.

Nothing indicated in these Federalists conflicts with this perspective of operational authority, but rather support it.

In Federalist 40, Madison definitively indicates:

What are these principles? Do they require that, in the establishment of the Constitution, the States should be regarded as distinct and independent sovereigns? They are so regarded by the Constitution proposed.

Here Madison indicates that, despite the transfer of further powers to a "national" government, that the principles of this country still involve the states being "distinct and independent sovereigns".

Madison later indicates:

The truth is, that the great principles of the Constitution proposed by the convention may be considered less as absolutely new, than as the expansion of principles which are found in the articles of Confederation. The misfortune under the latter system has been, that these principles are so feeble and confined as to justify all the charges of inefficiency which have been urged against it, and to require a degree of enlargement which gives to the new system the aspect of an entire transformation of the old.​

Thus, the Constitution was not a break from the philosophy and application of the Articles of Confederation, but rather only the specific and limited expansion of authority ceded to the federal government so as to make the union capable of exercising those necessary functions in the name of the states. In fact, expressing this understanding is arguably the purpose of Federalist 40.

By this, "in order to form a more perfect union", obviously from the Constitution, is not a different form of government philosophy, nor a different operational authority breaking from state sovereignty, but rather is only the specific expansion of that ceded operational function coming from the states themselves.

diagram_of_the_federal_government_and_american_union1.jpg
 
I would have to have a frontal lobotomy and speak in pixels to keep 'up' with you.

In effect, that is exactly what has happened to many who advocate secession. If we think of a frontal lobotomy as a procedure which alters radically ones ability to think as others do and dulls their senses to the reality around them - one could well say that is the practical result of self imposed radical ideology upon far too many on the far right.

I do not mean that in an insulting way or a demeaning way but as an observation of what you yourself have said here.

Self imposed radicaal right wing ideology is a very large hemorrhoid growing on the anal cavity of the body politic. While much like real life hemorrhoids - it is not disabling in of it self - but is certainly a pain in the but when it acts up. And that is a very apt description of the impact of far right ideology in todays USA.

Ultimately, it produces a denial of reality. This starts with a denial of political reforms which have occurred over the last century that have taken the nation further down the path to a democratic republic with a constitution as opposed to a republic with a constitution. And those on the right seem to loath this development. They seem to hate it. They revel in referring to the people as "the mob". They go to great pains to dispute that their is an actual right to vote despite five different mentions of the term in the US Constitution. They want to pretend that such democratic measures as initiative, referendum and recall do not exist and have not transformed us towards a democratic republic.

It is a denial of reality couched in terms of political opposition. But these things have been with us for over a century now and are not going anywhere despite the fevered opposition of the far right.

The right to vote has been expanded far beyond land owning white males so that now almost anybody over 18 can exercise the franchise. This expansion of democracy seems to get under the skin of the far right and causes them pain just like those hemorrhoids do. Just look right here on this site where we have had thread and polls in which righties express disdain for the vote and want to connect the vote to such things as paying taxes or the fallacy of the "net taxpayer" - a sham which has been destroyed time and time and time again in thread after thread.

Just as the slave owning powers of the civil war era refused to accept the winds of change sweeping across America and secession was the result, many on the far right today seem to refuse to accept the reality that America has become. They also realize that their elitist views are NOT going to triumph in any election and that we are NOT going to repeal the democratic advances of the past century. So their only recourse is to drag up the dead and rotted corpse of secession and pretend that it is some sort of answer for them.

Its rather sad. Its also pathetic.

I would hope that as these extremist age and die off that such nonsense also would die off. Sadly, their type of disease only seems to be growing. Because it is a form of extremism, it will never approach majority and is doomed to dwell on the fringes of the body politic. But it has infected the body politic just as any disease infects the host body and can and does cause pain and discomfort.

The cure of course is education and shining the light brightly upon the disease and the extremists behind it. Kill the disease off as best we can until - like the hemorrhoid it resembles - it is localized and is able to be controlled with manageable periodic flare-ups.
 
In effect, that is exactly what has happened to many who advocate secession. If we think of a frontal lobotomy as a procedure which alters radically ones ability to think as others do and dulls their senses to the reality around them - one could well say that is the practical result of self imposed radical ideology upon far too many on the far right.

I do not mean that in an insulting way or a demeaning way but as an observation of what you yourself have said here.

Self imposed radicaal right wing ideology is a very large hemorrhoid growing on the anal cavity of the body politic. While much like real life hemorrhoids - it is not disabling in of it self - but is certainly a pain in the but when it acts up. And that is a very apt description of the impact of far right ideology in todays USA.

Ultimately, it produces a denial of reality. This starts with a denial of political reforms which have occurred over the last century that have taken the nation further down the path to a democratic republic with a constitution as opposed to a republic with a constitution. And those on the right seem to loath this development. They seem to hate it. They revel in referring to the people as "the mob". They go to great pains to dispute that their is an actual right to vote despite five different mentions of the term in the US Constitution. They want to pretend that such democratic measures as initiative, referendum and recall do not exist and have not transformed us towards a democratic republic.

It is a denial of reality couched in terms of political opposition. But these things have been with us for over a century now and are not going anywhere despite the fevered opposition of the far right.

The right to vote has been expanded far beyond land owning white males so that now almost anybody over 18 can exercise the franchise. This expansion of democracy seems to get under the skin of the far right and causes them pain just like those hemorrhoids do. Just look right here on this site where we have had thread and polls in which righties express disdain for the vote and want to connect the vote to such things as paying taxes or the fallacy of the "net taxpayer" - a sham which has been destroyed time and time and time again in thread after thread.

Just as the slave owning powers of the civil war era refused to accept the winds of change sweeping across America and secession was the result, many on the far right today seem to refuse to accept the reality that America has become. They also realize that their elitist views are NOT going to triumph in any election and that we are NOT going to repeal the democratic advances of the past century. So their only recourse is to drag up the dead and rotted corpse of secession and pretend that it is some sort of answer for them.

Its rather sad. Its also pathetic.

I would hope that as these extremist age and die off that such nonsense also would die off. Sadly, their type of disease only seems to be growing. Because it is a form of extremism, it will never approach majority and is doomed to dwell on the fringes of the body politic. But it has infected the body politic just as any disease infects the host body and can and does cause pain and discomfort.

The cure of course is education and shining the light brightly upon the disease and the extremists behind it. Kill the disease off as best we can until - like the hemorrhoid it resembles - it is localized and is able to be controlled with manageable periodic flare-ups.



This is the sort of idiotic rant that got the shiznit slapped outta you throughout this and other threads.

Ya know, claims of a right wing extremism that you couldn't point to having affect anywhere, .... unless you're going to defend the "right to go bankrupt" and deny the people their expectation of a fiscally responsible government with regard to Michigan, which you actually attempted to do in support of your blind ideology. Oh, but the people have a right to that corrupt and irresponsible government, cuz they voted for it, doncha know! ;)


It was this nation's conservatives that argued for, and created our freedom, that fought for emancipation, that used the 10th Amendment argument of states rights to deny the fugitive slave act, who fought for that emancipation, and then who fought for Civil Rights.

Meanwhile it is the Left that have gone from advocating slavery, to now promoting the government itself as the source of 'new' and 'progressive' enslavement under an old, repackaged Marxist ideology involving forced equalization, all while spewing hysterical nonsense about the Right coming to deny the old their social security <while the left is cutting it>, to force women back into the kitchen <while the Left destroys our industry and jobs> , and force blacks back into slavery <while the Left demands blacks remain on the Democratic Plantation or suffer attacks like "Uncle Tom!">.

And THIS is the 'intellectual' equivalent of our unsupported, highly ideological rant, up above.

These "extremists", are not aging, but passing on our knowledge, wisdom and recognition of what is going on, to whole new generations, who now can see it first-hand as never before in this country's history. We're not diminishing, we're increasing, and despite the fact that throughout modern times there has never been a media airing the perspective of our freedoms and founding ideology anywhere among the mainstream networks. Reagan was not just the pinnacle of an ideology in decline, to never be seen again, but rather was the first great crest of a wave of an incoming tide, and tsunami.

We are deliberately nothing like a Democracy, nor a Democratic Republic, because it will invariably, even as now, subvert the freedoms of some to provide for the gratifications of many. Yours is an ideology of socialist democracy that has always "been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths" <Federalist #10>, which is why this nation is now balkanized as never before, and on the verge of war with itself, with our own government having bought up enough bullets to fight the Iraq war for twenty year, so as to suppress our birthright of individual freedoms.

It's not going to end well, and it never has in history under the ideology which you clearly support. And it is tremendously ironic that you would deny evidencing any such 'ideology', despite even rants like the one above. The reason you can only lose is I'm willing to give my life to defend my own guaranteed freedoms for my myself, my family and offspring, whereas you, you're only willing to sacrifice the rights of others to ensure your provision and gratification, which is far less of an investment in the final outcome.
 
Lol its pointless to go on about ideologies when the fact is that no State can legally secede from this country. And even more important no State actually wants to secede from this country. There are radical groups that want the right to secede property or even an entire State from the country but they are all small groups that are all irrelevant back water nuts.

One of these radical groups tried to get a popular secession vote in Alaska and were shown how stupid their idea of voting for State secession was. But if a State actually tried to secede then the President would by Constitutional law be required to stop the attempt. And if a State tried to use force to secede? Well that would be over mere minutes after it was tried.

So secessionists/disunionists/originalists/sectionists can just keep crying out their dogma "blah blah blah" but none of it will change reality. The founders did not include State secession anywhere as a legal right in the Constitution. In fact the times that the founders mentioned any type of secession it wasnt something done by a State but by the people. This is because the States are not immune from being tyrannies themselves, the States are more likely to become tyrannies in the first place. We have the natural right as a population to invoke revolution if the circumstances are correct, but no Government that has ever existed would make it legal for a portion of a country to secede out. Secession by definition is illegal, in the effect that it is a action that acts outside of the law.

But the proponents of secession will tell you any lie that they can think of to convince you that secession is ok. Do not be fooled by people in masks offering to save our rights, freedoms, and liberties. They are not concerned about us only their political movement.
 
Lol its pointless to go on about ideologies when the fact is that no State can legally secede from this country. And even more important no State actually wants to secede from this country. There are radical groups that want the right to secede property or even an entire State from the country but they are all small groups that are all irrelevant back water nuts.

One of these radical groups tried to get a popular secession vote in Alaska and were shown how stupid their idea of voting for State secession was. But if a State actually tried to secede then the President would by Constitutional law be required to stop the attempt. And if a State tried to use force to secede? Well that would be over mere minutes after it was tried.

So secessionists/disunionists/originalists/sectionists can just keep crying out their dogma "blah blah blah" but none of it will change reality. The founders did not include State secession anywhere as a legal right in the Constitution. In fact the times that the founders mentioned any type of secession it wasnt something done by a State but by the people. This is because the States are not immune from being tyrannies themselves, the States are more likely to become tyrannies in the first place. We have the natural right as a population to invoke revolution if the circumstances are correct, but no Government that has ever existed would make it legal for a portion of a country to secede out. Secession by definition is illegal, in the effect that it is a action that acts outside of the law.

But the proponents of secession will tell you any lie that they can think of to convince you that secession is ok. Do not be fooled by people in masks offering to save our rights, freedoms, and liberties. They are not concerned about us only their political movement.


You keep mentioning "legally" secede, in an exceedingly insipid and brain-dead fashion. Not only is secession nowhere prohibited BY ANY LAW, nor the Constitution itself, but BY DEFINITION secession is leaving the union and thereby OUTSIDE of any law!

Undeniably the states, are and have always been, the only sovereign entity in this country, and the right to control their destiny and associations is an integral and inseparable part of that sovereignty - thereby showing secession to be inherently valid.

Furthermore, as has been repeatedly shown, the Constitution nowhere explicitly (nor implicitly) prohibits secession to the states, nor does it afford the federal government the authority to prohibit secession, thereby leaving secession an authority of the states. Thus, by the Constitution's own indication in the 10th Amendment, the right of session remains with the states, and it does not have to be anywhere specifically stated as "legal right in the Constitution". Furthermore, states don't have "rights", but rather "powers", and these are not granted by, nor fully enumerated by the Constitution, as it is nowhere its intent. The Constitution does not need to "include state secession" anywhere, for it to be a fundamental authority of each state.

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite."

~ Madison, Federalist #45, 1788

"Indefinite" is a reference to absent definition, thereby negating any need for the Constitution "include" state secession.

The U.S. Supreme Court itself has further recognized as part of its primary holding, thereby being precedent, that any agreement or compact that any state might enter into can NOT in any way reduce or change any state's sovereignty over its own territory, a further indication that the "union" in no way reduced, much less transferred, state sovereignty.
 
You keep mentioning "legally" secede, in an exceedingly insipid and brain-dead fashion. Not only is secession nowhere prohibited BY ANY LAW, nor the Constitution itself, but BY DEFINITION secession is leaving the union and thereby OUTSIDE of any law!

Undeniably the states, are and have always been, the only sovereign entity in this country, and the right to control their destiny and associations is an integral and inseparable part of that sovereignty - thereby showing secession to be inherently valid.

Furthermore, as has been repeatedly shown, the Constitution nowhere explicitly (nor implicitly) prohibits secession to the states, nor does it afford the federal government the authority to prohibit secession, thereby leaving secession an authority of the states. Thus, by the Constitution's own indication in the 10th Amendment, the right of session remains with the states, and it does not have to be anywhere specifically stated as "legal right in the Constitution". Furthermore, states don't have "rights", but rather "powers", and these are not granted by, nor fully enumerated by the Constitution, as it is nowhere its intent. The Constitution does not need to "include state secession" anywhere, for it to be a fundamental authority of each state.

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite."

~ Madison, Federalist #45, 1788

"Indefinite" is a reference to absent definition, thereby negating any need for the Constitution "include" state secession.

The U.S. Supreme Court itself has further recognized as part of its primary holding, thereby being precedent, that any agreement or compact that any state might enter into can NOT in any way reduce or change any state's sovereignty over its own territory, a further indication that the "union" in no way reduced, much less transferred, state sovereignty.

Here we can read that James Madison says that you are wrong. According to Madison the Federal Government has sovereignty.

The Constitution of the U. S. divides the sovereignty; the portions surrendered by the States, composing the Federal sovereignty over specified subjects; the portions retained forming the sovereignty of each over the residuary subjects within its sphere. If sovereignty cannot be thus divided, the Political System of the United States is a chimaera, mocking the vain pretensions of human wisdom. If it can be so divided, the system ought to have a fair opportunity of fulfilling the wishes & expectations which cling to the experiment.

And now Madison again proves you wrong. A State has no authority to remove itself from the compact. Now I know that you expressed your fear of reading text before calling a "text dump" but read this text and understand exactly what this founder was saying. Madison is clearly asserting that a single State cannot secede because it is not the greater good of the situation. What he is geting at is that by allowing the States to secede at will for whatever reason that it would create the same unsustainable attributes of the other governments that they considered unusable as a model of Government.

Its time for you to admit that you are not concerned with Constitutional law nor what the founders wanted. Just admit that society today is not what you want and that the Constitution stands in your way. You want change but "We the people" stands in your way.

You can read the entire letter at the link.

Union: James Madison to Nicholas P. Trist

It is the nature & essence of a compact that it is equally obligatory on the parties to it, and of course that no one of them can be liberated therefrom without the consent of the others, or such a violation or abuse of it by the others, as will amount to a dissolution of the compact.

Applying this view of the subject to a single community, it results, that the compact being between the individuals composing it, no individual or set of individuals can at pleasure, break off and set up for themselves, without such a violation of the compact as absolves them from its obligations. It follows at the same time that, in the event of such a violation, the suffering party rather than longer yield a passive obedience may justly shake off the yoke, and can only be restrained from the attempt by a want of physical strength for the purpose. The case of individuals expatriating themselves, that is leaving their country in its territorial as well as its social & political sense, may well be deemed a reasonable privilege, or rather as a right impliedly reserved. And even in this case equitable conditions have been annexed to the right which qualify the exercise of it.

Applying a like view of the subject to the case of the U. S. it results, that the compact being among individuals as imbodied into States, no State can at pleasure release itself therefrom, and set up for itself. The compact can only be dissolved by the consent of the other parties, or by usurpations or abuses of power justly having that effect. It will hardly be contended that there is anything in the terms or nature of the compact, authorizing a party to dissolve it at pleasure.

It is indeed inseparable from the nature of a compact, that there is as much right on one side to expound it & to insist on its fulfilment according to that exposition, as there is on the other so to expound it as to furnish a release from it; and that an attempt to annul it by one of the parties, may present to the other, an option of acquiescing in the annulment, or of preventing it as the one or the other course may be deemed the lesser evil. This is a consideration which ought deeply to impress itself on every patriotic mind, as the strongest dissuasion from unnecessary approaches to such a crisis. What would be the condition of the States attached to the Union & its Govt. and regarding both as essential to their well-being, if a State placed in the midst of them were to renounce its Federal obligations, and erect itself into an independent and alien nation?
 
Lol its pointless to go on about ideologies when the fact is that no State can legally secede from this country. And even more important no State actually wants to secede from this country. There are radical groups that want the right to secede property or even an entire State from the country but they are all small groups that are all irrelevant back water nuts.

One of these radical groups tried to get a popular secession vote in Alaska and were shown how stupid their idea of voting for State secession was. But if a State actually tried to secede then the President would by Constitutional law be required to stop the attempt. And if a State tried to use force to secede? Well that would be over mere minutes after it was tried.

So secessionists/disunionists/originalists/sectionists can just keep crying out their dogma "blah blah blah" but none of it will change reality. The founders did not include State secession anywhere as a legal right in the Constitution. In fact the times that the founders mentioned any type of secession it wasnt something done by a State but by the people. This is because the States are not immune from being tyrannies themselves, the States are more likely to become tyrannies in the first place. We have the natural right as a population to invoke revolution if the circumstances are correct, but no Government that has ever existed would make it legal for a portion of a country to secede out. Secession by definition is illegal, in the effect that it is a action that acts outside of the law.

But the proponents of secession will tell you any lie that they can think of to convince you that secession is ok. Do not be fooled by people in masks offering to save our rights, freedoms, and liberties. They are not concerned about us only their political movement.

its time to ask you the 64,000 dollar question?

if a state were to move to secede thru peace, do you favor?

using federal troops to move into the state, and take over its government.

to arrest it elected officials and imprison them.

to declare marshal law, turning the state into an armed camp.

take away the rights of the people to protest, meaning free speech, and the ability to assembly.

have federal troops be able to search and seize property, violating a person right to be secure in his property and person.

meaning confiscating the firearms of the people, as to secure the federal governments position in the state.

deny them self government, for a puppet government imposed by the federal government.

deny them the right to their own state tax money, which would be falling now into federal hands.

IS THIS HOW FAR YOUR PREPARED TO GO TO IMPOSE THE CONSTITUTION ON A PEOPLE, WHO JUST WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE?
 
Here we can read that James Madison says that you are wrong. According to Madison the Federal Government has sovereignty.

The Constitution of the U. S. divides the sovereignty; the portions surrendered by the States, composing the Federal sovereignty over specified subjects; the portions retained forming the sovereignty of each over the residuary subjects within its sphere. If sovereignty cannot be thus divided, the Political System of the United States is a chimaera, mocking the vain pretensions of human wisdom. If it can be so divided, the system ought to have a fair opportunity of fulfilling the wishes & expectations which cling to the experiment.

And now Madison again proves you wrong. A State has no authority to remove itself from the compact. Now I know that you expressed your fear of reading text before calling a "text dump" but read this text and understand exactly what this founder was saying. Madison is clearly asserting that a single State cannot secede because it is not the greater good of the situation. What he is geting at is that by allowing the States to secede at will for whatever reason that it would create the same unsustainable attributes of the other governments that they considered unusable as a model of Government.

Its time for you to admit that you are not concerned with Constitutional law nor what the founders wanted. Just admit that society today is not what you want and that the Constitution stands in your way. You want change but "We the people" stands in your way.

You can read the entire letter at the link.

Union: James Madison to Nicholas P. Trist

It is the nature & essence of a compact that it is equally obligatory on the parties to it, and of course that no one of them can be liberated therefrom without the consent of the others, or such a violation or abuse of it by the others, as will amount to a dissolution of the compact.

Applying this view of the subject to a single community, it results, that the compact being between the individuals composing it, no individual or set of individuals can at pleasure, break off and set up for themselves, without such a violation of the compact as absolves them from its obligations. It follows at the same time that, in the event of such a violation, the suffering party rather than longer yield a passive obedience may justly shake off the yoke, and can only be restrained from the attempt by a want of physical strength for the purpose. The case of individuals expatriating themselves, that is leaving their country in its territorial as well as its social & political sense, may well be deemed a reasonable privilege, or rather as a right impliedly reserved. And even in this case equitable conditions have been annexed to the right which qualify the exercise of it.

Applying a like view of the subject to the case of the U. S. it results, that the compact being among individuals as imbodied into States, no State can at pleasure release itself therefrom, and set up for itself. The compact can only be dissolved by the consent of the other parties, or by usurpations or abuses of power justly having that effect. It will hardly be contended that there is anything in the terms or nature of the compact, authorizing a party to dissolve it at pleasure.

It is indeed inseparable from the nature of a compact, that there is as much right on one side to expound it & to insist on its fulfilment according to that exposition, as there is on the other so to expound it as to furnish a release from it; and that an attempt to annul it by one of the parties, may present to the other, an option of acquiescing in the annulment, or of preventing it as the one or the other course may be deemed the lesser evil. This is a consideration which ought deeply to impress itself on every patriotic mind, as the strongest dissuasion from unnecessary approaches to such a crisis. What would be the condition of the States attached to the Union & its Govt. and regarding both as essential to their well-being, if a State placed in the midst of them were to renounce its Federal obligations, and erect itself into an independent and alien nation?



What we have, once again, is Madison still expanding his idea of a sovereign government, something he continued from his rejected Virginia Plan, on through the ratification of the Constitution.

The fact that Madison is speaking from his own opinion only, and no authority whatsoever, can be recognized by Madison being forced to acknowledge the "if" of such a dual sovereignty being unable to exist, "If sovereignty cannot be thus divided", then it is a "chimera", a mythical beast of Madison's own fabrication. Madison has inherently recognized that what he postulates here, is not the founding principle of this country, or else he would not be saying "if" a full FORTY-PLUS years after this nation's formation.

Madison is doing nothing but advancing his pre-constitutonal belief in the need of a sovereign national government, which is not what we got. Sovereignty by definiton is not something that can be divided, it is an entity with singular authority. If the federal government were sovereign, then the states would not be declaring the limits to its authority.

This is expressed by the portion of this letter that you cut off immediately before what you quote:

No other Government can furnish a key to its true character. Other Governments present an individual & indivisible sovereignty. The Constitution of the U. S. divides the sovereignty; the portions surrendered by the States,


Sovereignty is either there and held by an entity, or it is not. Sovereignty cannot be passed by one entity to another. In such cases, there is no sovereignty pass on to another at all, but only the latter party acting with a fiduciary duty to the sovereign authority, wherein the federal government acts as the trustee of the sovereign states, and with their authority, but only within certain terms. As with any fiduciary agreement of trust, the the trustee's duties can be denied by the authority, and particularly so when that trustee has violated its trust. While a sovereign state may withdraw its trust agreement with the federal government, it cannot withdraw or alter that of the other several states, and this is true by definition.

This recognition has been further supported by the Supreme Court in Pollard's Lessee, which stated:

"To Alabama belong the navigable waters and soils under them, in controversy in this case, subject to the rights surrendered by the Constitution to the United States; and no compact that might be made between her and the United States could diminish or enlarge these rights."


"Alabama is, therefore, entitled to the sovereignty and jurisdiction over all the territory within her limits ... to maintain any other doctrine, is to deny that Alabama has been admitted into the union on an equal footing with the original states ... to Alabama belong the navigable waters and soils under them."

Just as the states have no sovereign authority over any other states, they have no authority to prohibit another state from choosing its own course. Similarly, as per Pollard's Lessee, no state may forfeit that sovereignty even by its own previous agreement to do so to the federal government!

Think about that. The states cannot forfeit their sovereignty to a federal government, not even over territory in its boundaries which it agreed to pass to the federal government, and therefore cannot forfeit any sovereignty to a federal government, not even in part, as argued by Madison.

This interpretation is further supported by the previously discussed letter from Thomas Jefferson to William B. Giles, December 26, 1825, in which Jefferson discusses the "choice" between two evils, but says there can be "no hesitation" in this choice. Were not the states the sole possessors of sovereignty, the states would not be making the choice, but rather the federal government would be doing so. Jefferson makes no mention of any "choice" on the part of that federal government at all, as it has no sovereignty of its own upon which to found that choice.

Madison is not a federalist from the perspective of federalism creating a limited federal government, but rather a nationalist, with this form of nationalist sovereign government never being adopted by the Constitutional Convention, and never being any portion of what was agreed to by the sovereign states.

In brief, yes, it is possible for the founders to utter complete and total ********, totally in conflict with the Constitution, and Madison here is prime example of just that.
 
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