A Question for the Skeptics...

[AConcernedCitizen]

Cute throwaway line, but it doesn't explain why the Apostles accepted violent deaths for themselves, why there have been so many martyrs throughout the ages, nor why there are still today those who are willing to be martyred for their faith in Christ.

Martyrdom isn't unique to Christianity. I hear it's pretty popular in Islam as well. In fact, you would be hard-pressed to find a culture anywhere in the world that did not have tales of those willing to sacrifice their lives for a cause they believed in.

 

[nota bene]

Martyrdom isn't unique to Christianity. I hear it's pretty popular in Islam as well. In fact, you would be hard-pressed to find a culture anywhere in the world that did not have tales of those willing to sacrifice their lives for a cause they believed in.

That's true, but it's important to distinguish between those who are martyred innocently and those who crash planes into buildings.

 

[Overitall]

Who isn't being serious? I'll tell you truthfully, if Star Wars was proven today to be a myth, I would still try to mold my life according to the Jedi Path, for there is no better way to live, nor wiser words ever written in any self-help book on the shelves, ever...

In my religion, the people killing little children are the bad guys.

Yea, but in your religion The Dark Side continues to exist with no way for your Jedi priests to rid the Universe of it. Get rid of one of its servants and The Dark Side will just raise up a new bad guy to kill innocent people and destroy whole worlds. The religion of your Jedi Priests is essentially pointless.

I don't have to think up justifications for Anakin slaughtering little Tusken babies. It was evil. It represents his fall to the dark side. I don't have to pretend that it was 'righteous.'

You have to justify to yourself that murdering little babies in revenge for something they had no part in is somehow 'righteous.' Your religion requires that you follow a violent conquerer as He strikes down the nations by force with His armies, and rules them all with an iron scepter, treading the winepress of the fury of the wrath of a jealous God.

Fury, wrath, and jealousy are not traits to be admired. That is not a good example to mold your life by. That is the path to the dark side.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

That's true, but it's important to distinguish between those who are martyred innocently and those who crash planes into buildings.

Sure.

For example, Obi-Wan willingly accepted his death at Vader's hand without yielding to fear or anger, but with the knowledge that he was preserving hope that the balance might be restored to the living force.

The apostles, by contrast, gave their lives in service of a jealous God who punishes the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation. A God who specifically commands His armies to kill little children and infants.

 

[Overitall]

Sure.

For example, Obi-Wan willingly accepted his death at Vader's hand without yielding to fear or anger, but with the knowledge that he was preserving hope that the balance might be restored to the living force.

The apostles, by contrast, gave their lives in service of a jealous God who punishes the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation. A God who specifically commands His armies to kill little children and infants.

Maybe the Apostles understood something you don't.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Yea, but in your religion The Dark Side continues to exist with no way for your Jedi priests to rid the Universe of it. Get rid of one of its servants and The Dark Side will just raise up a new bad guy to kill innocent people and destroy whole worlds. The religion of your Jedi Priests is essentially pointless.

The Jedi are not omnipotent. Epicurus poses no challenge for us. It is not pointless to defy evil. When a new evil rises to take its place, we will defy it as well.

It is not pointless to weed a garden, knowing that new weeds will eventually grow to replace those you remove. It is not pointless to wash your dishes, knowing that they will only be dirtied again with the next meal.

 

[Overitall]

The Jedi are not omnipotent. Epicurus poses no challenge for us. It is not pointless to defy evil. When a new evil rises to take its place, we will defy it as well.

It is not pointless to weed a garden, knowing that new weeds will eventually grow to replace those you remove. It is not pointless to wash your dishes, knowing that they will only be dirtied again with the next meal.

Yea, I imagine a gerbil has a blast in its wheel its master puts in the cage with it.

 

[Individual]

That's true, but it's important to distinguish between those who are martyred innocently and those who crash planes into buildings.

That's easy, victims and suicidal assailants.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Maybe the Apostles understood something you don't.

The same can be said of those who crash planes into buildings. Maybe they understood something that you and I don't.

I'm not going to follow the God of Abraham based on the possibility that the 9/11 terrorists knew something I don't though. I'm not going to contend that what they did was 'righteous' on the assumption that 'they must have had a good reason.' In fact, I'm going to go ahead and call them terrorists. I'm going to say that what they did was wrong.

I suppose I should qualify it to say that 'based on my own limited understanding,' crashing planes into buildings full of non-combatants in order to terrorize a populace is generally wrong. Similarly, 'based on my own limited understanding,' stabbing babies to death in revenge for things their ancestors did hundreds of years before they were born is generally wrong.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Yea, I imagine a gerbil has a blast in its wheel its master puts in the cage with it.

Maybe the gerbil understands something you don't. I got to play in a human-sized one. Those things are a blast.

 

[Individual]

Maybe the Apostles understood something you don't.

How were the apostles fed, clothed, and sheltered?

 

[Overitall]

The same can be said of those who crash planes into buildings. Maybe they understood something that you and I don't.

I'm not going to follow the God of Abraham based on the possibility that the 9/11 terrorist knew something I don't though.

No one is asking you to follow a being someone wrote about. However, you seem impressed with the religion of the Jedi Knights and they can't defeat a Dark Force that will continue to kill innocent people. At least with the God that the Bible writers wrote in their script there's an end to all suffering and death. Your religion offers nothing but an eternity of endless battles. But at least your Jedi Knights can feel good about themselves.

I'm not going to contend that what they did was 'righteous' on the assumption that 'they must have had a good reason.' In fact, I'm going to go ahead and call them terrorists. I'm going to say that what they did was wrong.

I suppose I should qualify it to say that 'based on my own limited understanding,' crashing planes into buildings full of non-combatants in order to terrorize a populace is generally wrong. Similarly, 'based on my own limited understanding,' stabbing babies to death in revenge for things their ancestors did hundreds of years before they were born is generally wrong.

 

[Overitall]

How were the apostles fed, clothed, and sheltered?

I think Paul was taken care of by his jailors.

 

[Overitall]

Maybe the gerbil understands something you don't. I got to play in a human-sized one. Those things are a blast.

I don't imagine it made you dizzy headed, did it?

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

No one is asking you to follow a being someone wrote about. However, you seem impressed with the religion of the Jedi Knights and they can't defeat a Dark Force that will continue to kill innocent people. At least with the God that the Bible writers wrote in their script there's an end to all suffering and death. Your religion offers nothing but an eternity of endless battles. But at least your Jedi Knights can feel good about themselves.

The promise of an end to suffering and death is also the promise of the Sith. The dark side is self-destructive. Left unchallenged, the Sith would destroy the Living Force in exchange for a moment of power. With the Living Force extinguished, life itself would cease and there would be no suffering or death, only empty rocks floating through space.

Recognition that challenges will always arise, and thoughts on how they should be met are useful in life where challenges do continue to arise. A happily-ever-after where free will has finally been eradicated and everyone is forced to only do the right thing all the time doesn't have any utility as a guide to living a life where that is not the case. Particularly if the price of that happily-ever-after is to stab babies in the cradle in revenge for things they had no part in.

In your religion, the bad guys ultimately win by trampling nations under the heels of their armies and then rule over everyone with an iron scepter. It's a cautionary tale of the consequences of allowing theocracy to flourish.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

I don't imagine it made you dizzy headed, did it?

Not a bit. It was a workout though.

 

[Manc Skipper]

And other times, fact is stranger than fiction...

Fiction is often pushed as fact, especially in religious fora and these post Trumpian times.

 

[Overitall]

The promise of an end to suffering and death is also the promise of the Sith. The dark side is self-destructive. Left unchallenged, the Sith would destroy the Living Force in exchange for a moment of power. With the Living Force extinguished, life itself would cease and there would be no suffering or death, only empty rocks floating through space.

The end of the story. Doesn't sound like a good one. I would, if I could, contact the script writers and suggest they rework their ending. It sucks! With the script writers of the Bible God the end is life in Paradise or Heaven. No more tears. No more pain and suffering. No more death. I prefer this ending to your religion's ending.

Recognition that challenges will always arise, and thoughts on how they should be met are useful in life where challenges do continue to arise. A happily-ever-after where free will has finally been eradicated and everyone is forced to only do the right thing all the time doesn't have any utility as a guide to living a life where that is not the case. Particularly if the price that happily-ever-after is to stab babies in the cradle in revenge for things they had no part in.

In your religion, the bad guys ultimately win by trampling nations under the heels of their armies and then rule over everyone with an iron scepter. It's a cautionary tale of the consequences of allowing theocracy to flourish.

 

[Airyaman]

Jesus’ disciples went from being fearful of death, to being willing to die for their belief that Jesus rose from the dead...if Jesus didn’t rise...what do you think changed their mind?

If you use fiction to prove fiction, isn't that kind of a circular argument?

 

[Overitall]

Not a bit. It was a workout though.

Then you got somewhere afterall. Right where you started.

 

[Somerville]

Cute throwaway line, but it doesn't explain why the Apostles accepted violent deaths for themselves, why there have been so many martyrs throughout the ages, nor why there are still today those who are willing to be martyred for their faith in Christ.

What is the documentation that provides the story? Tales we may read in the New Testament. Why aren't there any non-Christian records of these strange happenings?

Roman law would not have allowed an executed criminal to be placed into a tomb but only to be buried in a graveyard where criminals were buried without any blessing.

None of the texts were written by a person who had personally interacted with the Jewish teacher known as Jesus.

 

[Daisy]

If you use fiction to prove fiction, isn't that kind of a circular argument?

Well, when you can prove it's fiction, then we'll talk...

 

[Individual]

I think Paul was taken care of by his jailors.

Kind of like Jim Baker?

 

[Airyaman]

Well, when you can prove it's fiction, then we'll talk...

You're trying to "prove" that Jesus rose from the dead by using something written in the bible about the disciples. Why not just use the bible to prove Jesus rose from the dead?

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

The end of the story. Doesn't sound like a good one. I would, if I could, contact the script writers and suggest they rework their ending. It sucks! With the script writers of the Bible God the end is life in Paradise or Heaven. No more tears. No more pain and suffering. No more death. I prefer this ending to your religion's ending.

Anakin prefered that ending as well. Darth Sidious offered him power over death, and Anakin stabbed little children to death in exchange for this power.

The Sith will offer you whatever you want to hear. They will prey upon your fear of tears and offer you an end to tears. They will prey upon your fear of pain and suffering and offer an end to pain and suffering. They will prey upon your fear of death and offer an end to death itself. And if you let those fears control you, you will justify anything to yourself in exchange for what the Sith offer. Even stabbing little children to death.