A question for people who don't smoke

[Slippery Slope]

Re: Non-smokers: Your views on marijuana

Pot-heads are like they are stuck in "slow-motion" mentally and physically. Sometimes it is frustrating watching them....

Nonsense. Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong people.

 

[Slippery Slope]

Few people are aware that there are different kinds of cannabis sub-species which determine what kind of high you have. Most people just think pot is pot, especially in North America where there is little differentiation between varieties, fewer connoisseurs, and an undeveloped sub-culture surrounding this widely misunderstood plant.

I think you've been away from it too long. Pick up any of the various "cannabis mags" and you'll find a very diverse sub-culture and a lot of connoisseurs as well as geeks using advanced growing methods like Aeroponics, edd and flow, hempy pots, NFT, Hydroponics of course, fogging, as well as advanced botany.

Cannabis indica produces a drunken sort of intoxication where you are slow, stupified, and you just sort of sit there and stare at a wall. Conversation is difficult and so is creative thinking. This is what I call being "stoned".

This is more commonly referred to as a body buzz or "couch-lock".

Cannabis sativa is what I grew and smoked exclusively. It is the variety used by spiritual sects in India, and is the pre-cursor to all Afghani hash. It produces a heady high that gives you energy, enhances creative thinking and has use for meditation. It's great for socializing and is a very get up and go kind of pot. This is what I call being "high".

This is absolutely correct. Although we refer to it as a "head high". The general medicinal value is increased appetite and focus. Whereas Indica is usually used, medicinally for pain (as it feels more narcotic on the body). Hash is simply the "trichomes" off the leaves and buds removed from the plant material. You can make hash from either Indica or Sativa.

All pot that is grown, with a few exceptions, comes in ratios of the above two. So for example, one strain may be 50% Indica and 50% Sativa... when you first smoke it, you will feel the heady, creative high, but as the effects wear off, it will fade into a dull, stoner high. The strains I grew and preferred were at least 80% sativa.

The vast, vast majority of pot that is distributed on the streets and through private dealers is predominantly indica. This is because the indica sub-species is smaller in size (for hiding), grows from seed to harvest in a shorter period of time, and the yield is usually higher. Sativas grow taller so they are harder to conceal in larger scale grow-ops, and they take longer to grow to maturity. Also, the best sativa varieties are outdoor ones which grow significantly larger, and anywhere that pot has illegal status makes it difficult to do this way.

So, as a result, most private growers who do grow sativas keep the harvest for themselves, as it is a far superior variety. They save the indica stuff for the streets because it is more suitable for mass production. Unfortunately, this also cheapens the effects for many, many people.

:thumbs:

If people had the freedom to grow pot without fear of being caught, my belief is that more people would grow sativa strains and fewer people would be subject to being "stoned" and more would experience what a real "high" feels like. Because sativas naturally increase the speed and level of your thoughtfulness, I think it would actually be a benefit to society. Ancient cultures who use it for meditation chose it for this very reason.

Again, for pain relief, the majority of people will choose Indica.

 

[Slippery Slope]

No, I am against it.

We are already a pill popping, prescription drug taking, recreational drug overkill society.

We are the wealthiest, yet most chemical dependent nation on the face of the planet.

We dont need more pill popping, prescription drug taking, recreational drug using sickos running the streets legally.

If 2nd hand smoke is bad for you, then what is 2nd hand pot smoke gonna be?

Its to bad adults cant simply be adults and live a life without chemical dependency.

Legalizing drugs isnt going to solve anything. Ever seen people on drugs? I have seen enough friends fall to pieces on drugs, dont need to have it explained to me how its harmless and better then "X" or "Y".

So when reality creeps back in you'd much rather have it illegal, spend Billions in an unsuccessful endeavor to stamp it out, incarcerate non-violent offenders with harded and violent criminals. Not to mention that criminalization affects job opportunities and scholastic financing opportunities. Oh and we shouldn't forget one of the worst effects of criminalization... the black market and all that goes along with it including, danger for the user, money that gets used for more nefarious illegal activities (producing and distributing hard drugs and terrorism). Sounds like a loosing proposition. Oh yeah, and it's illegal status prevents us from growing Industrial Hemp which would be a HUGE boon to our economy.

 

[stekim]

Oh and we shouldn't forget one of the worst effects of criminalization... the black market and all that goes along with it including, danger for the user, money that gets used for more nefarious illegal activities (producing and distributing hard drugs and terrorism). Sounds like a loosing proposition. Oh yeah, and it's illegal status prevents us from growing Industrial Hemp which would be a HUGE boon to our economy.

The black market is the direct cause of the current violence in Mexico, which may spread here. Like usual they are running around struggling to find the solution when it's staring them in the face. Of course there is going to be violence. When you prohibit something people want and have no legitiimate moral basis for the ban you get predictable after affects.

 

[TheHat]

So when reality creeps back in you'd much rather have it illegal, spend Billions in an unsuccessful endeavor to stamp it out, incarcerate non-violent offenders with hardened and violent criminals. Not to mention that criminalization affects job opportunities and scholastic financing opportunities. Oh and we shouldn't forget one of the worst effects of criminalization... the black market and all that goes along with it including, danger for the user, money that gets used for more nefarious illegal activities (producing and distributing hard drugs and terrorism). Sounds like a loosing proposition. Oh yeah, and it's illegal status prevents us from growing Industrial Hemp which would be a HUGE boon to our economy.

There should be danger for the user. That alone should be incentive not to do it. :thumbs: But then again, alot of people are stupid and dont care, so they take the risk.

Sorry, the argument that legalizing drugs would be a boost to the economy is ridiculous. The key to boosting the economy has ZERO TO DO WITH LEGALIZING DRUGS. It has to do with getting the government out of the markets and to decrease fees and taxes on businesses and individuals so they can keep more of their money. Less government intrusion is the key to boosting the economy.

You dont want to hear my ideas on what to do with criminals in jail. It would call the attention to Human Rights Watch.:mrgreen:

 

[TheHat]

The black market is the direct cause of the current violence in Mexico, which may spread here. Like usual they are running around struggling to find the solution when it's staring them in the face. Of course there is going to be violence. When you prohibit something people want and have no legitiimate moral basis for the ban you get predictable after affects.

You think the folks who are in power in the black markets are just gonna up and becme legit b/c something went legal?

You will be stuck right back at square 1, b/c they will just go find the next thing to sell on the black market.

Then what? Gonna legalize that too? Then do the process again, again, again, again?

People are involved in illegal activity and are criminals for a reason. To think they will just come clean and pure as the wind driven snow is naive.

 

[Tucker Case]

You think the folks who are in power in the black markets are just gonna up and becme legit b/c something went legal?

You will be stuck right back at square 1, b/c they will just go find the next thing to sell on the black market.

Then what? Gonna legalize that too? Then do the process again, again, again, again?

People are involved in illegal activity and are criminals for a reason. To think they will just come clean and pure as the wind driven snow is naive.

The demand for other black market stuff will be much lower.

 

[stekim]

You think the folks who are in power in the black markets are just gonna up and becme legit b/c something went legal?

No. They just will not sell it anymore. The mob is no longer in the bootlegging business in case you failed to get the memo.

You will be stuck right back at square 1, b/c they will just go find the next thing to sell on the black market.

Then what? Gonna legalize that too? Then do the process again, again, again, again?

Depends. Most things should be legal. Can't see how it's my business. But the violence isn't caused solely by something being illegal. It's caused by something being in high demand and illegal. That's why they are moving pot and cocaine and they are not moving rhino horn powder. In other words, you eventually run out of things that are high in demand and illegal, leaving them with littlke choice but to move on.

 

[TheHat]

The demand for other black market stuff will be much lower.

Says who? The criminals will move on to another item that is illegal and then that will become the new black market.

To which, the folks over a period of time, will use, and we will be right back at this very same point.

Legalize it, to get rid of the black market.

 

[TheHat]

No. They just will not sell it anymore. The mob is no longer in the bootlegging business in case you failed to get the memo.

Right, now they running your government. :thumbs:

How is that working out?

Depends. Most things should be legal. Can't see how it's my business. But the violence isn't caused solely by something being illegal. It's caused by something being in high demand and illegal. That's why they are moving pot and cocaine and they are not moving rhino horn powder. In other words, you eventually run out of things that are high in demand and illegal, leaving them with littlke choice but to move on.

Yeah, they move on to the next item.

Eventually, you just have total chaos b/c everything is OK to do. Whether it be drugs, or some other unlawful act.

 

[stekim]

Right, now they running your government. :thumbs:

How is that working out?

Not sure what you are talking about.

Eventually, you just have total chaos b/c everything is OK to do. Whether it be drugs, or some other unlawful act.

Actually, you have FAR more "chaos" here than in places far more tolerant of individual rights. Your little drug war has caused massive "chaos".

 

[Tucker Case]

Says who? The criminals will move on to another item that is illegal and then that will become the new black market.

Says the law of supply and demand.

How does being a primary black market item increase demand for that item?

It doesn't. The demand exists and then the black market develops. It has to exist that way for there to be profit.

Currently, drugs are a highly profitable venture for black marketeers because the demand already exists for those items.

The demand is low for other black market items. The fact that current drug dealers would try to switch to those items would not increase the demand for those items.

If the criminals switch to a different black market item that already exists, they'll only have the same level of demand as they had before legalization of drugs occurred.

The only possible way for all of them to succeed in switching items would be if there were a new item introduced to the market that had equivilant demand as drugs do AND appealed to the type of people who were willing to break the law to attain this item.

To which, the folks over a period of time, will use, and we will be right back at this very same point.

Legalize it, to get rid of the black market.

That's a slippery slope fallacy. The demand for intoxicants is as old as humankind.

The only way that it could work like you propose is if there truly was a new item that was on the black market that had never been seen before and could spark the levels of demand that intoxicants do.

That is unlikely given that there are few things in this world with the same level of demand that intoxicants have with their users.

And the inherent quality of drugs that cause this extreme demand not found in other black market items is Addiction.

That inherent quality is not present in any other black market item.

 

[Slippery Slope]

There should be danger for the user. That alone should be incentive not to do it. :thumbs: But then again, alot of people are stupid and dont care, so they take the risk.

Why should there be danger, because it is illegal? That's a very bad premise. So if we were to make birthday cakes illegal then you think it should be dangerous for people to get them, just because it's illegal? Why isn't Alcohol dangerous to acquire? Why isn't tobacco dangerous to acquire? These are both worse in every way than pot and yet...

Sorry, the argument that legalizing drugs would be a boost to the economy is ridiculous.

Are you sure? No, of course you're not.

Oaksterdam News Network - Economists: Regulating cannabis could save US $14 billion;

Economists: Regulating cannabis could save US $14 billion;

Written by Autumn Bernstein
Over $1 billion in benefits for California taxpayers alone
Friedman and 500 economists call for new approach to cannabis control

Cannabusiness - The Atlantic (April 2009)

In 1996, California voters passed Proposition 215, a referendum legalizing medical marijuana. Although federal law prohibits the cultivation, sale, or use of cannabis, a series of subsequent state laws and court decisions cleared the way for what has become a thriving industry. Recent studies say that Californians grow more than 20 million pot plants. Their bounty, valued at as much as $14 billion, is distributed to the state’s 200,000 physician-certified users through hundreds of dispensaries, which advertise through billboards, flyers, and even bikini-clad barkers on Venice Beach. Given California’s well-publicized budget crunch, it’s worth noting that legal pot sales generate $100 million in state tax revenue a year. As Don Duncan, the proprietor of dispensaries in Berkeley and Hollywood and an Oaksterdam professor, put it, “Marijuana has evolved from a countercultural experience to an over-the-counter experience.”

Keep in mind this is only from medical marijuana use. If it were legalized the result would be GIGANTIC!!!

The key to boosting the economy has ZERO TO DO WITH LEGALIZING DRUGS. It has to do with getting the government out of the markets and to decrease fees and taxes on businesses and individuals so they can keep more of their money. Less government intrusion is the key to boosting the economy.

You're simply wrong all both points. I've already shown the additional revenue created just from medical marijuana and we know that the "free market" absolutely needs government regulation to help prevent the trouble private industry gets us all into when there is no regulation. These are simple facts that anyone can look up.

You dont want to hear my ideas on what to do with criminals in jail. It would call the attention to Human Rights Watch.:mrgreen:

Especially if you're going to spew some neanderthal, testosterone engorged, mindless bully mantra. Surely you don't think a nonviolent offender should be subjected to the same treatment as say, a rapist or an armed bank robber... :roll:

 

[Slippery Slope]

You think the folks who are in power in the black markets are just gonna up and becme legit b/c something went legal?
You will be stuck right back at square 1, b/c they will just go find the next thing to sell on the black market.
Then what? Gonna legalize that too? Then do the process again, again, again, again?

Which has nothing to do with legalizing pot. A criminal will probably continue to be a criminal even if you remove the current thing they are involved in. There used to be a black market for 8 track tapes... You don't determine whether something should be illegal based on what criminals might do if it were suddenly legal. Pot shouldn't be illegal in the first place.

People are involved in illegal activity and are criminals for a reason. To think they will just come clean and pure as the wind driven snow is naive.

I'm not really sure what you are saying here. I am a pot user, the only thing that would change for me is that I wouldn't have to worry about getting busted. I'd still be smoking it and paying my taxes, just like I do now.

 

[Slippery Slope]

Right, now they running your government. :thumbs:

How is that working out?

Wow, you really are bad at this whole discussion thing, huh.
I'm sorry to tell you this but that is really a dumb response. But let me pound that nail in from a different angle in case you didn't get it. Please name the person or people running the government that were bootleggers. :waiting

Yeah, they move on to the next item.

So? Better something else then wasting BILLIONS of taxpayer money every year in a loosing battle to fight against something that should never have been criminalized in the first place.

Eventually, you just have total chaos b/c everything is OK to do. Whether it be drugs, or some other unlawful act.

:doh