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A positive message on the future of Russia

Craig234

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I watched an interview today with a Russian dissident who was twice poisoned by Putin. It reminded me of this.

It's easy to condemn 'Russia this' and 'Russia that'. Because so much of Russia is controlled by Putin who is doing so much harm.

When the Soviet Union fell, there was a sort of assumption in the west over decades - Russian commies suck, west is great, if they just got rid of communism they could also be a great free country. As if that just happened.

When they fell, the west could have engaged and tried to help them transition. I think we largely didn't. And the neglect from the west allowed rot, as the country had criminal opportunists seize the massive state assets and turn them into private wealth for instant billionaires, and created a kleptocracy. Not good for the Russian people, and working with a kleptocrat in chief, Putin, soon enough.

What a mistake. We're seeing the price.

This dissident said there are millions of Russians who want Russia to have real democracy, to have freedom, and to 'act responsibly with others'.

Luckily, unlike China, the problems in Russia seem largely based in Putin. When he is out of power, there seems every opportunity for their country to get 'fixed'. An analogy would be how well German and Japan were 'fixed' after WWII, and today are seen as very good countries.

But we need to frickin plan for the effort to work with them to help this happen, and we should have it not be run by our own corrupt interests trying to exploit the situation any more than the Russian oligarchs should have been allowed to.

It's easy to forget how this can be done in the midst of their being the modern Nazis in mass murder. But it can be done, and there is no reason to have to blame 99.9% of Russia if it is. Can we bother to try to do it, instead of neglect again as we have in many cases? The first time, the optimism was high enough to even talk of Russia in NATO - including Putin agreeing. We and Europe should try to plan to help them transition ending the Second Cold War..
 

ataraxia

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I can’t help but think you are giving the west too much credit and assuming it has far more power to shape things over there than it does. But then again I am no Russia analyst.

I do think it’s not just Putin- many Russians are resentful of the folding of the Soviet Union. They feel that was their glory days and now feel left behind. Some even want a resurgence of something like imperialist Tsarist Russia, much like the demographics here in the US which support Trump. It’s amazing what people do to get respect and avoid the feeling of humiliation (incidentally, I think a lot of Middle Eastern terrorism comes from this as well). They want to go back to making Russia great again.

I am glad this Russian dissident feels this way, but I am not so sure all Russians are willing to integrate into or join western democracies any time soon.
 
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This dissident said there are millions of Russians who want Russia to have real democracy, to have freedom, and to 'act responsibly with others'.
I personally don't listen to what dissidents/activists say because they are BIAS.

It's like talking to a Trump fanatic about Bernie or the other way around.

I do however sympathize in this case as the dissident was poisoned twice. Any chance you can provide the link on who this individual is?

The situation is more complex than "millions of Russians want freedom and democracy".

Here is my view/opinion on how the people are in Russia:

a) The old Soviet generation group
that has melancholia about the Soviet Union. For them, every time Putin moves in old Soviet territory they think the old red empire is coming back.
b) There is a group of Russian sympathizers of the tsar and see in Putin exactly that, an image of the tsar. This group can be older or younger. The younger group tends to identify more with him as a strongman as they don't identify with the tsar.
c) There is also a group of far-right elements in Russia. They are mostly hooligans from the soccer teams. I remember watching a documentary years ago in regards to the events at the Euro Cup when the Russians beat the English in street fighting. A lot of them were saying on camera that Putin's FSB paid for their release on bail and helped them flee back to Russia.
d) There are also Russian-speaking young poor people in the Eastern Side of Ukraine that join far-left militias like Stronghold. Putin is using both extremes for his advantage. Outside and Inside.
e) "Real democracy"

I don't have faith in "the people". In my opinion, the only way this gets resolved for the good of the world is if the Russian elite/oligarchs start losing patience with Putin as they are losing money. If China does not render assistance quickly, they might want to change him. I would not have faith in the military, most of them have kids in politics or part of the FSB.
 
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Craig234

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I am glad this Russian dissident feels this way, but I am not so sure all Russians are willing to integrate into or join western democracies any time soon.
It's not all, of course, but many, and what we should help with when we can.
 

Athanasius68

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I watched an interview today with a Russian dissident who was twice poisoned by Putin. It reminded me of this.

It's easy to condemn 'Russia this' and 'Russia that'. Because so much of Russia is controlled by Putin who is doing so much harm.

When the Soviet Union fell, there was a sort of assumption in the west over decades - Russian commies suck, west is great, if they just got rid of communism they could also be a great free country. As if that just happened.

When they fell, the west could have engaged and tried to help them transition. I think we largely didn't. And the neglect from the west allowed rot, as the country had criminal opportunists seize the massive state assets and turn them into private wealth for instant billionaires, and created a kleptocracy. Not good for the Russian people, and working with a kleptocrat in chief, Putin, soon enough.

What a mistake. We're seeing the price.

This dissident said there are millions of Russians who want Russia to have real democracy, to have freedom, and to 'act responsibly with others'.

Luckily, unlike China, the problems in Russia seem largely based in Putin. When he is out of power, there seems every opportunity for their country to get 'fixed'. An analogy would be how well German and Japan were 'fixed' after WWII, and today are seen as very good countries.

But we need to frickin plan for the effort to work with them to help this happen, and we should have it not be run by our own corrupt interests trying to exploit the situation any more than the Russian oligarchs should have been allowed to.

It's easy to forget how this can be done in the midst of their being the modern Nazis in mass murder. But it can be done, and there is no reason to have to blame 99.9% of Russia if it is. Can we bother to try to do it, instead of neglect again as we have in many cases? The first time, the optimism was high enough to even talk of Russia in NATO - including Putin agreeing. We and Europe should try to plan to help them transition ending the Second Cold War..

The reason why meaningful sanctions can be placed upon Russia, why McDonalds is shutting down, why Russia is losing most favored trade status etc ect ect is because the West DID try to help Russia out.
It didn't just walk away after the Berlin wall fell.
 

Craig234

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I personally don't listen to what dissidents/activists say because they are BIAS.

It's like talking to a Trump fanatic about Bernie or the other way around.

I do however sympathize in this case as the dissident was poisoned twice. Any chance you can provide the link on who this individual is?

I disagree with much of your post, but this is the clip I was talking about you asked for:

 

IQ57

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Can you feel the Russian BURN yet. Let’s talk some more about Russia. FROM WHAT I HAVE READ, which makes me most informed, is that they are acting exactly like Russia. How informative is that. If you are confused I can always circle back with you.
 

Craig234

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Can you feel the Russian BURN yet. Let’s talk some more about Russia. FROM WHAT I HAVE READ, which makes me most informed, is that they are acting exactly like Russia. How informative is that. If you are confused I can always circle back with you.
Is the forum you should use? Do you go to a cooking forum and post "RONALD MCDONALD PEDOPHILE AND STILL NOT CAUGHT IN PLAIN SIGHT!!"?
 

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I disagree with much of your post.
Yes is great to be able to disagree without having this happen:


I will speak for myself but this war has brought me back to some times and sure grateful for living in the West now!
 

Craig234

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I will speak for myself but this war has brought me back to some times and sure grateful for living in the West now!

I agree with THAT post.
 
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