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A Belief Worth Dying For?

They are hardwired that way. There is always someone out to get em in some sneaky way. But of course they are way too smart to fall for a known con man and grifter like Trump.
 

There are other factors to consider besides vaccination levels. Has any data recording the amount of distancing and masking been considered? No. There could be great variability right there, and vaccination levels have nothing to do with that considerable factor. What level of testing has been used for the different countries and counties? Again, the data is not given. That could throw the results off. The study looks at a one week time period. That is an insufficient time period for a comprehensive conclusion. The study is essentially meaningless.

The methods from the link are outlined here:

"We used COVID-19 data provided by the Our World in Data for cross-country analysis, available as of September 3, 2021 (Supplementary Table 1) [4]. We included 68 countries that met the following criteria: had second dose vaccine data available; had COVID-19 case data available; had population data available; and the last update of data was within 3 days prior to or on September 3, 2021. For the 7 days preceding September 3, 2021 we computed the COVID-19 cases per 1 million people for each country as well as the percentage of population that is fully vaccinated.

For the county-level analysis in the US, we utilized the White House COVID-19 Team data [5], available as of September 2, 2021 (Supplementary Table 2). We excluded counties that did not report fully vaccinated population percentage data yielding 2947 counties for the analysis. We computed the number and percentages of counties that experienced an increase in COVID-19 cases by levels of the percentage of people fully vaccinated in each county. The percentage increase in COVID-19 cases was calculated based on the difference in cases from the last 7 days and the 7 days preceding them. For example, Los Angeles county in California had 18,171 cases in the last 7 days (August 26 to September 1) and 31,616 cases in the previous 7 days (August 19–25), so this county did not experience an increase of cases in our dataset. We provide a dashboard of the metrics used in this analysis that is updated automatically as new data is made available by the White House COVID-19 Team (https://tiny.cc/USDashboard)."

That tells us that this entire study only covers a small blip in time. 7 days. That is too short a time period to draw over encompassing conclusions about the pandemic.

The results of the study are therefore rejected.
 
The results of the study are therefore rejected.
the results of the study are rejected by you, some guy wasting time on some website.

this study was accepted and cited by the European journal of epidemiology and health policy and technology journal, and whos results are public displayed for all at the NIH.

Maybe they should have hired you to review all their submissions....and fair enough if you think that. I just think you are...some guy wasting time on a website.
 
Only 24% of all Americans trust our government. This includes 36% of Democrats, 9% of Republicans.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/05/17/public-trust-in-government-1958-2021/

With several charts/graphs you can see how trust in our federal government has eroded over time on the link above. So, it’s not surprising to see quite a lot of Americans not believing in the vaccinations. I would wager they probably don’t believe the data being put forth by the government. The government has been caught way too many times giving false statements and data to the people.

Then too you have the partisan aspect of it. When Trump was president, at one point 36% of republicans said they trusted our government vs. a low of 12% of democrats. Change presidents to Biden, now you have 36% of Democrats professing trust in our government vs.9% of Republicans.

Hi, Perotista!

I'm an old man. I remember the death of Mr. Franklin D. Roosevelt and the end of WWII. Through it all, I did not doubt that our democracy here in the US, flawed though it is, would survive.

Now, I'm far from certain. The histories of democracies that became authoritarian regimes are available to all. We can winkle out the key steps in the process. Some of them are obvious in the United States at the present time.

The ghost of democracies past haunts me.

Regards, season's best to you and yours, and remember the Big 5.
 
Conservatives are more likely to fall victim to conspiracy theory peddlers

Hi, Arlette!

There are studies which indicate that those who identify as conservatives in the United States have tendencies toward certain traits such as an acceptance of authoritarian rule. I have yet to see a study which shows a proclivity toward conspiracy theories as opposed to, say, those who identify as liberals.

I would appreciate a citation if you have one handy.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
 
Hi, bluesmoke!

The belief, far more prevalent among Republicans/conservatives, that what are normally considered reputable sources of information such as the CDC are not to be trusted.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.


I didn't trust Trump's CDC director Robert Redfield. He wasn't even qualified. Couldn't trust the DOJ because of Trump's lapdog Bill Barr. Nor the then POTUS, and the WH...the foreign office under Trump...can't trust what SCOTUS has become...
 
I didn't trust Trump's CDC director Robert Redfield. He wasn't even qualified. Couldn't trust the DOJ because of Trump's lapdog Bill Barr. Nor the then POTUS, and the WH...the foreign office under Trump...can't trust what SCOTUS has become...

Hi again, Bluesmoke.

A retired chemist, I probably have an edge over the average American in evaluating statements that fall within the boundary of science. To date, as the pandemic has unfolded, I've found little to concern me in the suggestions of the CDC and other major governmental health organizations. I've personally followed what I call the "Big 5" -- 5 steps individuals can take to reduce the risk of contracting the Covid-19 virus.

Folks these days, I find, have difficulty in distinguishing fact from commentary/analysis. That can lead them down some dark and, in the case of the pandemic, dangerous paths.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
 
Hi, bluesmoke!

The belief, far more prevalent among Republicans/conservatives, that what are normally considered reputable sources of information such as the CDC are not to be trusted.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.


To your point, 28 percent of Americans surveyed believe the 'truth about harmful effects of vaccines' is being deliberately hidden from the public.

 
Mainly that getting vaccinated against COVID-19 is (somehow) surrendering one’s personal freedom to the evil federal government which is funding and recommending that folks get the vaccinations.

Dying for an irrational belief is certainly giving up one's most precious personal freedom, being that of one's life. 28 percent of Americans surveyed believe the 'truth about harmful effects of vaccines' is being deliberately hidden from the public.

Exclusive: 28 percent of Americans surveyed believe the 'truth about harmful effects of vaccines' is being deliberately hidden from the public (yahoo.com)
 
To your point, 28 percent of Americans surveyed believe the 'truth about harmful effects of vaccines' is being deliberately hidden from the public.


Hi once more!

Perhaps we should add a 5th horseman. His name is Conspiracy.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
 
Hi, Perotista!

I'm an old man. I remember the death of Mr. Franklin D. Roosevelt and the end of WWII. Through it all, I did not doubt that our democracy here in the US, flawed though it is, would survive.

Now, I'm far from certain. The histories of democracies that became authoritarian regimes are available to all. We can winkle out the key steps in the process. Some of them are obvious in the United States at the present time.

The ghost of democracies past haunts me.

Regards, season's best to you and yours, and remember the Big 5.
The authoritarianism has become more prevalent over time into a much more powerful presidency than envision by the framers and founders. Congress has ceded over time much of their constitutional powers to the administration and to government agencies. By doing so, members of congress have cut down on hard decisions that may make the voters back home mad at them. They can go back on the campaign trail and now tell the voters it wasn’t their fault such and such happened. It was that government agency, department, program or the administration, so vote for me.



Second, member of congress of the same party of the president have become more part of the administration than that of the institution of congress. Members of the same party of the president trying to give the president everything he wants and increase the presidents power. Even if it makes congress more and more irrelevant.
 
I knew from the beginning where this was going. The more the machine bullied, the more I dig in my heels. You see, Americans are not supposed to allow themselves to be bullied like this. The way our Government is bullying the remaining what, 40% of Americans who are not fully vaccinated causes me grave concern. We are not supposed to be treated like this. And since we know that, we have to ask the question why? And it has nothing to do with safety or moral obligations
 
The authoritarianism has become more prevalent over time into a much more powerful presidency than envision by the framers and founders. Congress has ceded over time much of their constitutional powers to the administration and to government agencies. By doing so, members of congress have cut down on hard decisions that may make the voters back home mad at them. They can go back on the campaign trail and now tell the voters it wasn’t their fault such and such happened. It was that government agency, department, program or the administration, so vote for me.



Second, member of congress of the same party of the president have become more part of the administration than that of the institution of congress. Members of the same party of the president trying to give the president everything he wants and increase the presidents power. Even if it makes congress more and more irrelevant.

Hi again.

You touched upon an important observation. The members of our federal legislature [Ed.: And those in state legislatures as well,] are now more responsive to their party than to their constituencies. As such, they -- the parties -- have become the 'factions' feared by the designers of the Constitution of the United States of America. Ref: Federalist Paper # 10 and others. It should be noted that the Federalist Papers include no, repeat, no defense against factions other than hoping that the men elected to public office will be devoted to the Constitution.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
 
Hi again.

You touched upon an important observation. The members of our federal legislature [Ed.: And those in state legislatures as well,] are now more responsive to their party than to their constituencies. As such, they -- the parties -- have become the 'factions' feared by the designers of the Constitution of the United States of America. Ref: Federalist Paper # 10 and others. It should be noted that the Federalist Papers include no, repeat, no defense against factions other than hoping that the men elected to public office will be devoted to the Constitution.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
I agree, it's always party first and foremost to most of our elected officials. It's has become much more important to be an R or a D than to be an big A, American. The framers wanted people to run for office as individual not affialated with any party. Political parties which they called factions. When our elected leaders become more loyal to their political party than either the Constitution or the country as a whole, we have a huge problem.
 
Hi, Rawley!

Please see post # 48.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
Thanks Torus. Interestingly, during 2020 it was Biden telling us not to trust the CDC and FDA, for months.
 
Thanks Torus. Interestingly, during 2020 it was Biden telling us not to trust the CDC and FDA, for months.

I haven't taken time to verify your comment, but the effort to subvert our democracy through reducing trust in its institutions has enlisted many soldiers.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
 

"If and when the vaccine comes, it’s not likely to go through all the tests that need to be done, and the trials that are needed to be done." Aug. 6, 2020


"Look at what’s happened. Enormous pressure put on the CDC not to put out the detailed guidelines. The enormous pressure being put on the FDA to say they’re going, that the following protocol will in fact reduce, it will have a giant impact on COVID. All these things turn out not to be true, and when a president continues to mislead and lie, when we finally do, God willing, get a vaccine, who’s going to take the shot? Who’s going to take the shot? You going to be the first one to say, ‘Put me — sign me up, they now say it’s OK’? I’m not being facetious." Sept. 2, 2020


"How are you going to distribute the vaccine when it arrives, when it arrives, when it’s there? And the question of whether it’s real, when it’s there, that requires enormous transparency. You’ve got to make all of it available to other experts across the nation, so they can look and see, so there’s consensus this is a safe vaccine. Because already you have, what percent is American people saying if the vaccine were there tomorrow, they wouldn’t take it? And it’s not the usual anti-vaccine crowd. It’s beyond that because people are losing faith in what the president says. Think about it." July 28, 2020
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-questions-whether-coronavirus-vaccine-will-be-real


"Charting a clear path of science-based vaccines, free from politics. I get asked the question: ‘If the president announced tomorrow we have a vaccine, would you take it?’ Only if it was completely transparent, that other experts in the country could look at it, only if we knew all of what went into it. Because so far, nothing he’s told us has been true." Sept. 7, 2020


"Americans have had to endure President Trump’s incompetence and dishonesty, when it comes to testing and personal protective equipment. We can’t afford to repeat those fiascos when it comes to a vaccine. … Let me be clear: I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump, and at this moment, the American people can’t either. Last week, Senator Harris and I laid out three questions this administration’s going to have to answer to assure the American people that politics will not play a role whatsoever in the vaccine process. If Donald Trump can’t give answers and the administration can’t give answers to these three questions, the American people should not have confidence." following week
 
I'm fully vaccinated, and I try to convince others that getting vaccinated is good for them... but both sides of this debate, the vaccine avoiders, and the mandatory vaxxers are ridiculous.

On the one hand, the risk of COVID outweighs the risk of vaccine side effects.. so getting vaccinated is a net positive.. though the risk/reward balance does narrow considerably under the age of 40.

On the other hand, people who argue that vaccinations are necessary to slow the spread seem to miss that even if the vaccine significantly slows the spread, that doesn't change the cold hard truth that eventually everyone will get COVID-19. Until the r0 drops below 1, the virus will spread. And so long as there are countries in the world with a high rate of infection, successful mutations will occur, and those mutations will spread.

In the case of the latest Omicron variant, the vaccine is following it's expected decline in effectiveness because a single-factor immunity deteriorates faster than natural immunity. The vaccine was built around the protein sequence that allows COVID to bind to a human cell, which makes perfect sense... but every time that protein sequence changes, the vaccine becomes less effective.

So, anyway, the truth is still that everyone will eventually catch COVID-19 in one form or another unless they lock themselves off from human contact forever. The "slow the spread" is why it's still circulating 2 years later. We seem locked in an unreasonable expectation that we can stop the virus, but we can't, and it's not because of the unvaxxed... they can be blamed for the number of severe cases, but why fire unvaccinated hospital staff (especially those who have already had COVID) if you really care about hospital capacity?

In the end, if Omicron variant continues to be a mild strain that is also highly communicable, it has the potential to bring the pandemic to a close. It does seem to infect the vaccinated at a rather higher rate (probably not as fast as the unvaccinated), buut in most countries the unvaccinated population is largely those who are not at huge risk from COVID to begin with (probably why Omicron appears to be mild?). In the US at least 83% of people over 18 have at least one dose, and 99.9% of people over 65.

TL;DR It's great that so many people are vaccinated, there is little call for the severity of the rancor on either side displayed to people with different priorities. The chances are approaching zero that an Unvaccinated person will kill you through infection.
 
"If and when the vaccine comes, it’s not likely to go through all the tests that need to be done, and the trials that are needed to be done." Aug. 6, 2020

That's after he said Trump is trying to move vaccine quicker than scientists think it should be moved. Your video conveniently skipped that part. So that was in the context of Trump pushing vaccine to arrive before science was ready.

And right before that he was encouraging business to follow guidelines from CDC to safely open.

"Look at what’s happened. Enormous pressure put on the CDC not to put out the detailed guidelines. The enormous pressure being put on the FDA to say they’re going, that the following protocol will in fact reduce, it will have a giant impact on COVID. All these things turn out not to be true, and when a president continues to mislead and lie, when we finally do, God willing, get a vaccine, who’s going to take the shot? Who’s going to take the shot? You going to be the first one to say, ‘Put me — sign me up, they now say it’s OK’? I’m not being facetious." Sept. 2, 2020

Yeah and? Indeed, there was pressure by Trump on CDC (and FDA) to NOT put out the detailed guidelines. Biden was saying that's wrong and he was right. And he was right that people would not trust the vaccine from Trump without support of scientists.

"How are you going to distribute the vaccine when it arrives, when it arrives, when it’s there? And the question of whether it’s real, when it’s there, that requires enormous transparency. You’ve got to make all of it available to other experts across the nation, so they can look and see, so there’s consensus this is a safe vaccine. Because already you have, what percent is American people saying if the vaccine were there tomorrow, they wouldn’t take it? And it’s not the usual anti-vaccine crowd. It’s beyond that because people are losing faith in what the president says. Think about it." July 28, 2020
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-questions-whether-coronavirus-vaccine-will-be-real

Again, nothing here is against CDC/FDA but only about Trump pushing vaccine in July 2020, way way way before it was ready. Of course noone would trust it before decent studies were done.

"Charting a clear path of science-based vaccines, free from politics. I get asked the question: ‘If the president announced tomorrow we have a vaccine, would you take it?’ Only if it was completely transparent, that other experts in the country could look at it, only if we knew all of what went into it. Because so far, nothing he’s told us has been true." Sept. 7, 2020

Another confirmation Bide was willing to trust scientists and not Trump. Any sane person would do the same. So what?

"Americans have had to endure President Trump’s incompetence and dishonesty, when it comes to testing and personal protective equipment. We can’t afford to repeat those fiascos when it comes to a vaccine. … Let me be clear: I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump, and at this moment, the American people can’t either. Last week, Senator Harris and I laid out three questions this administration’s going to have to answer to assure the American people that politics will not play a role whatsoever in the vaccine process. If Donald Trump can’t give answers and the administration can’t give answers to these three questions, the American people should not have confidence." following week

"Let me be clear: I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump, and at this moment, the American people can’t either."

Exactly.
 
I'm fully vaccinated, and I try to convince others that getting vaccinated is good for them... but both sides of this debate, the vaccine avoiders, and the mandatory vaxxers are ridiculous.

On the one hand, the risk of COVID outweighs the risk of vaccine side effects.. so getting vaccinated is a net positive.. though the risk/reward balance does narrow considerably under the age of 40.

On the other hand, people who argue that vaccinations are necessary to slow the spread seem to miss that even if the vaccine significantly slows the spread, that doesn't change the cold hard truth that eventually everyone will get COVID-19. Until the r0 drops below 1, the virus will spread. And so long as there are countries in the world with a high rate of infection, successful mutations will occur, and those mutations will spread.

In the case of the latest Omicron variant, the vaccine is following it's expected decline in effectiveness because a single-factor immunity deteriorates faster than natural immunity. The vaccine was built around the protein sequence that allows COVID to bind to a human cell, which makes perfect sense... but every time that protein sequence changes, the vaccine becomes less effective.

So, anyway, the truth is still that everyone will eventually catch COVID-19 in one form or another unless they lock themselves off from human contact forever. The "slow the spread" is why it's still circulating 2 years later. We seem locked in an unreasonable expectation that we can stop the virus, but we can't, and it's not because of the unvaxxed... they can be blamed for the number of severe cases, but why fire unvaccinated hospital staff (especially those who have already had COVID) if you really care about hospital capacity?

In the end, if Omicron variant continues to be a mild strain that is also highly communicable, it has the potential to bring the pandemic to a close. It does seem to infect the vaccinated at a rather higher rate (probably not as fast as the unvaccinated), buut in most countries the unvaccinated population is largely those who are not at huge risk from COVID to begin with (probably why Omicron appears to be mild?). In the US at least 83% of people over 18 have at least one dose, and 99.9% of people over 65.

TL;DR It's great that so many people are vaccinated, there is little call for the severity of the rancor on either side displayed to people with different priorities. The chances are approaching zero that an Unvaccinated person will kill you through infection.
I agree with you for the most part. But I completely understand the rancor when people are being fired from their chosen professions, for political reasons, .because they refuse to take a drug they don't want or need.
 
That's after he said Trump is trying to move vaccine quicker than scientists think it should be moved. Your video conveniently skipped that part. So that was in the context of Trump pushing vaccine to arrive before science was ready.

And right before that he was encouraging business to follow guidelines from CDC to safely open.



Yeah and? Indeed, there was pressure by Trump on CDC (and FDA) to NOT put out the detailed guidelines. Biden was saying that's wrong and he was right. And he was right that people would not trust the vaccine from Trump without support of scientists.



Again, nothing here is against CDC/FDA but only about Trump pushing vaccine in July 2020, way way way before it was ready. Of course noone would trust it before decent studies were done.



Another confirmation Bide was willing to trust scientists and not Trump. Any sane person would do the same. So what?



"Let me be clear: I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump, and at this moment, the American people can’t either."

Exactly.
Sorry Slav. Nice spin, but for months, literally months, Biden was telling the American people that they could not trust the FDA, the CDC, or the vaccine. Cuomo was telling the same story, Newsom was telling the same story, Every Dem Gov. was telling the same story.
 
On the other hand, people who argue that vaccinations are necessary to slow the spread seem to miss that even if the vaccine significantly slows the spread, that doesn't change the cold hard truth that eventually everyone will get COVID-19. Until the r0 drops below 1, the virus will spread.

Yeah but you ignore some important facts here:

1. FLATTEN THE CURVE - the whole point is to keep hospitals from being overrun, so it's MUCH better to have people get the virus SLOWER, OVER TIME than all together.

2. it could very well be that by the time some people DO get the virus, it mutates to something LESS lethal (for all we know, Omicron could be THAT)

3. by the time people get the virus, NEW medications may be approved to take better care of them

In the US at least 83% of people over 18 have at least one dose, and 99.9% of people over 65.

100 million are STILL UNvaccinated completely and 40% of total popualation are either UNvaccinated or UNDERvaccinated.

Also, unfortunately, vaccine effectiveness wanes and not nearly as many are boosted.
 
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