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9-11: Who did it?[W:1493]

You see no flaws in these experiments?

I see massive flaws (more like fabrications, deliberate failures, lies, scientific and criminal fraud, etc.) in the NIST reports (all of them) and the 9/11 Commission Report. Don't you?

What flaws do you see in the experiments? What flaws do you see in the video titled "9/11 In Perspective"? And if there are flaws, how does that correct the flaws in the NIST reports and 9/11 Commission Report?
 
That's not even remotely true. It's the usual made up stuff from Mark that he pretends is fact. There has never been a natural collapse of any steel frame tower that looked like any the 3 tower collapses on 9/11. There has never been such a collapse period. So we can't even compare the 9/11 events to what doesn't exist (naturally induced).

Sure we can. We have 2 extant examples of large open floor plan steel frame office towers that succumbed to a combination of high-speed impact with a very large commercial aircraft and subsequent fires and one example of a large open floor plan steel frame office tower which succumbed to 7 hours of uncontrolled and unfought fires on multiple floors simultaneously. Besides, don't forget the important bit. No matter what initiates the collapse, the collapse progression phase is always done by gravity.

There is no particular reason why a fire induced collapse should superficially appear to be different than one done with hundreds of explosive charges after months of manual demolition, steel cutting and prep. After all, the building doesn't know why the collapse started. The building can't say I will fall this way if that column is cut with an explosive but I will fall another way if that column buckles from heat. That's just silly. Whether by pre-preparation or failure due to fire, fatigue or overloading those are all collapse initiation mechanisms. The part people think looks like a CD is the collapse progression phase, which no matter what the initiating method was is done by gravity. So in casual appearance there is no reasonable expectation of a great difference. A fire-induced collapse will however sound a whole lot different than one made by hundreds of boom-booms and that is one of the key reasons why we know there were no CD's on 9/11.

It is also why AE911T deliberately and deceitfully removes the audio tracks from its example video's,... but I'm jumping ahead a bit.

OTOH there have been building collapses via CD that look nearly identical to WTC7.

Actually that is not true. And yes I have seen the AE911T produced comparison video's where they crop the beginning from the 7 WTC collapse, remove the audio track then compare it side-by-side to a building of completely different design and construction and less than half the size with the explosions edited out in order to show how similar they are.

Riiiiiigggghhhhttt :roll:

I don't consider those to be apples to apples comparisons. Maybe you do, I don't.

The global collapse of a steel frame high rise due to fire has never happened in history and has never been reproduced via experiment (it has been tried and failed) or via computer simulation. If it can't be done via experiment, it doesn't exist. OTOH, CDs are well known to collapse buildings globally, if successfully planned and executed. So we do have history on CD collapses.

Why does it matter if the building is a high-rise or not? Does fire know how tall a building is?

How many open floor plan steel frame office towers have been deliberately set alight and left to their own devices just to see what happens? Kind of a difficult experiment to pull off don't you think?
 
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Sure we can. We have 2 extant examples of large open floor plan steel frame office towers that succumbed to a combination of high-speed impact with a very large commercial aircraft and subsequent fires and one example of a large open floor plan steel frame office tower which succumbed to 7 hours of uncontrolled and unfought fires on multiple floors simultaneously.

Except like everything else you faithfully parrot from the OCT, that has never been proven or scientifically shown to be true and therefore is not an example of any kind.

There is no particular reason why a fire induced collapse should superficially appear to be different than one done with hundreds of explosive charges after months of manual demolition, steel cutting and prep.

Except if that were true, there would be no need for a CD industry. If it were true, all that would ever be needed to bring a building down globally and in a matter of minutes is to set it on fire. And of course you can show many examples of that can't you?

Actually that is not true. [that there are examples of CD collapses that are nearly identical to the WTC7 collapse]

Deny all you want, the proof is the videos. One only needs a working pair of eyes and a brain with adequate intellectual capacity to see and understand the nearly identical similarity.



I don't consider those to be apples to apples comparisons. Maybe you do, I don't.

Of course YOU don't but that means nothing given the history of your posts on the subject. Let's face it Mark, you pretend to live and die by the OCT so you'll deny anything and everything that shows it to be worthless garbage. Hell, you actually pretend to believe that the US government not only fed us the full truth about 9/11 but that the vast majority they didn't publicly release (i.e. a massive coverup) that you have no clue about its contents would not change a thing about the OCT fairy tale.
 
I see massive flaws (more like fabrications, deliberate failures, lies, scientific and criminal fraud, etc.) in the NIST reports (all of them) and the 9/11 Commission Report. Don't you?

What flaws do you see in the experiments? What flaws do you see in the video titled "9/11 In Perspective"? And if there are flaws, how does that correct the flaws in the NIST reports and 9/11 Commission Report?

Bob, I did not ask about the NIST, now did I?

Funny how you will not engage in a discussion on something you posted.

Your misdirection just shows you buy into anything on youtube that you think supports your position.

Is your non answer a way of saying you believe 100% of what the two vids show?
 
I did not ask about the NIST, now did I?

No I asked YOU about the OCT. The videos I posted would never exist if not for the OCT so they address it directly. Why are you afraid to address the OCT? You also failed to address what YOU find inaccurate about the videos I posted. It seems the only reason you asked me that question is because you believe there is something wrong with it.

Funny how you will not engage in a discussion on something you posted.

I am engaged in such a discussion. It's you who doesn't want to participate.

Your misdirection just shows you buy into anything on youtube that you think supports your position.

There is no misdirection. Those videos are a direct result of the OCT. My position is to get at the truth about 9/11 and the OCT is certainly not that. So yes, I will buy into anything I feel is truthful about 9/11, including what proves the OCT to be a fraud.

Is your non answer a way of saying you believe 100% of what the two vids show?

It is not a non-answer, yours is a non-answer since you refuse to address the OCT, the actual reason these videos exist. There is nothing I find about those videos that are not credible.
 
Except like everything else you faithfully parrot from the OCT, that has never been proven or scientifically shown to be true and therefore is not an example of any kind.

Sure it has Bob. Just work the problem front to back for a change, starting from what is known:

1. We know Flights 11 and 175 took off that morning and were tracked all the way to their impacts with the North and South Towers respectively
2. We know both impacts were observed by hundreds (Flight 11) and millions (Flight 175) of witnesses respectively and both impacts were caught on film and video.
3. We know both towers suffered heavy structural damage from the impacts. Perimeter column damage could be observed externally.
4. We know intense fires broke out all the way across multiple floors simultaneously and that the spread of these fires was aided by the impact damage
5. We know there were no effective efforts to fight or suppress these fires and that fire protection systems were compromised by the impacts
6. We know that prior to collapse both towers showed obvious signs of structural instability - window breakage in the lobbies, creaking, moaning and shifting of the structure, visible lean, etc, etc, etc,...
7. We know that in the minutes prior to collapse floor trusses and perimeter columns in both towers were visibly buckling.
8. We know that collapse initiation in both towers was at the level of the aircraft impacts.

Prima facie, the collapse of both Twin Towers was due to the combined effects of high speed impact of a large aircraft (each equal to more than a ton of TNT) with the resulting structural damage with prolonged exposure of exposed steel to intense heat which weakened the remaining structure to a point where over time it could not support the load and it failed. That's where we get starting at the beginning and working with known facts (Note: none of this has anything to do with whether or not 9/11 was perpetrated by the evil government. It is in fact totally possible to accept airplane impact + fire + time + gravity as the proximate cause of building collapse AND believe da gubmint did it).

Except if that were true, there would be no need for a CD industry. If it were true, all that would ever be needed to bring a building down globally and in a matter of minutes is to set it on fire. And of course you can show many examples of that can't you?

Hyperobole much? :naughty

I would think it would be very messy and expensive to go around flying planes into buildings in the middle of a crowded city. The opportunities for litigation would certainly make this a non-starter. And don't even think about the environmental impact studies that would need to be done! :doh

Deny all you want, the proof is the videos. One only needs a working pair of eyes and a brain with adequate intellectual capacity to see and understand the nearly identical similarity.

So why exactly did you post a video that validated, indeed demonstrates every complaint I had, that shows all the methods used to deceive people about what they are viewing? I pointed out specifically what those techniques of dishonesty are and they are all displayed here. Do you still not see it?
 
Sure it has Bob.

No it hasn't. The so-called 9/11 investigations were nothing of the sort. Parroting from the official conspiracy theory reports is the same as parroting Alice in Wonderland as proof.

Hyperobole much? :naughty

I would think it would be very messy and expensive to go around flying planes into buildings in the middle of a crowded city. The opportunities for litigation would certainly make this a non-starter. And don't even think about the environmental impact studies that would need to be done! :doh

Hyperbole? How about the above red herring? I clearly said that if your parroted OCT claim is true, all that would be needed to bring buildings down globally and in minutes would be to set them on fire and that there would be no need for a CD industry. So then you introduce airplanes crashing into buildings which I never mentioned.

So why exactly did you post a video that validated, indeed demonstrates every complaint I had, that shows all the methods used to deceive people about what they are viewing?

Yet another red herring claim. Where is the deception besides your own? Your only complaint seems to be that you fail time and time again to convince anyone that the OCT is valid. Why do you think that is? Perhaps you need to change your game plan, the one you're using is a waste of time, it's way too obvious. I'm not saying that any game plan will actually work but you should try going back to the drawing board, you never know.

I pointed out specifically what those techniques of dishonesty are and they are all displayed here. Do you still not see it?

You pointed out nothing of the sort other than your own dishonesty, which you do with nearly every post. I'm sure that's clear even to you. Who do you think you're fooling? You're as transparent as they come.
 
3 that collapsed. Buildings 1, 2 and 7. The others were taken down due to severe damage.

In post #120 of this thread did you not say:

3 buildings collapse within their own footprint because of fire,...

So, if these buildings collapsed within their own footprint how is it that 10 buildings in total were written off that day with another 25 suffering moderate to heavy damage and around 100 more damaged? Were all of these buildings built in the footprints of 1, 2 & 7 WTC?

That seems unlikely.

Buildings 5 & 6 were gutted by fire and suffered partial collapses. St. Nicholas Church and the Marriott were crushed. 4, Fiterman Hall and the Bankers Trust Building were damaged beyond economical repair and dismantled.

All were well outside the footprint of any of the main towers.

You may recall earlier I mentioned how you seemed to be having doubts because you have been given false and misleading information? Well, this is another one of those times.

When confronted with any claim one should always ask two questions (the order matters not):

1. Is the claim true (a true fact)?
2. If true, so what? Why is it relevant? Why do we care?

You will find with most 9/11 CT claims that you rarely get past asking one question.
 
No it hasn't. The so-called 9/11 investigations were nothing of the sort. Parroting from the official conspiracy theory reports is the same as parroting Alice in Wonderland as proof.

Hyperbole? How about the above red herring? I clearly said that if your parroted OCT claim is true, all that would be needed to bring buildings down globally and in minutes would be to set them on fire and that there would be no need for a CD industry. So then you introduce airplanes crashing into buildings which I never mentioned.

Yet another red herring claim. Where is the deception besides your own? Your only complaint seems to be that you fail time and time again to convince anyone that the OCT is valid. Why do you think that is? Perhaps you need to change your game plan, the one you're using is a waste of time, it's way too obvious. I'm not saying that any game plan will actually work but you should try going back to the drawing board, you never know.

You pointed out nothing of the sort other than your own dishonesty, which you do with nearly every post. I'm sure that's clear even to you. Who do you think you're fooling? You're as transparent as they come.

Not falling for the attempted derails Bob, or the ad homs.

I have described in detail the prima facie case for impact and fire induced collapse. Your response was to not quote any of that text hoping it would be forgotten since you have no rebuttal or rival case to prima facie standard to present on your own.

I described why crashing planes into buildings in crowded cities was problematic as a method of urban renewal. You reduced that to just fire, ignoring the planes bit hoping to derail us off that subject as well.

I described in detail the trickery used in the video you provided comparing building collapses even before you provided it. Your response was a barrage of ad hom - you didn't even try to defend or justify the editing trickery.

Yet I am the one suffering from slavish devotion to a fairy tale.

Riiiiiiigggggghhhhhht. :lamo

As usual, should you decide to be serious I am always open for an actual discussion.
 
Because a flyover theory is completely ignorant?

Nobody caught it on camera, but two dozen people saw the same airplane, but some would not go on camera. An airplane that looked like an airliner flew overhead towards the Pentagon, and a bunch of people saw it, as intended. That's why they did the fly by--like a magician uses sleight-of-hand to deceive other humans. As far as I'm concerned, whoever was at the controls was just following orders. It would be interesting to know how many were in on the know.

So, it's not ignorant. Worse for you, it's the only way to explain what all those people saw in the air. And the path of the airplane that they saw does not align with the path required to knock down those light poles.
 
So you can find no fault with CIT's conclusions? Not even one?

I did not make it clear enough for you Mark, I did find fault, I did disagree with one major conclusion that the dude made. He "concluded" that no flying object, no missile, no nothing, struck the Pentagon. And I was roundly criticized for having suggested that it is POSSIBLE that some flying object struck the building, in addition to the explosives that were already placed there.

But as for interviewing the people who actually saw the airplane, he did one helluva job, and I thanked him for it. :mrgreen:
 
do you know the DC area?

have you been here?

driven here?

or are you another in a long line of conspiracy guys who never actually want to look themselves

when the plane flew over my head, i was maybe 1 1/2 miles from the pentagon, and 3/4 mile from the interstate

probably 5-6 lights.....

did i see the plane hit the ground? no

would i have seen it fly away....yes

and if you knew the area i was talking about....and had actually been here and driven it, you would understand

so good luck with your "theory"

i kinda like the truth myself

Yes I have been to DC. Several times over many years. I am always driven when I am there.

Thank you for admitting you did not see it hit the ground, you are honest. Truth is that we were fooled on that day, tricked into believing a story that is not actually true.

I sound redundant, but there is little about the story that is true. Impossible phone calls from airliners. A military exercise being conducted that morning wondered whether it was exercise or real-life? We were all deceived that day about small details, but the story has been kept alive with movies made and such.
 
Nobody caught it on camera, but two dozen people saw the same airplane, but some would not go on camera. An airplane that looked like an airliner flew overhead towards the Pentagon, and a bunch of people saw it, as intended. That's why they did the fly by--like a magician uses sleight-of-hand to deceive other humans. As far as I'm concerned, whoever was at the controls was just following orders. It would be interesting to know how many were in on the know.

So, it's not ignorant. Worse for you, it's the only way to explain what all those people saw in the air. And the path of the airplane that they saw does not align with the path required to knock down those light poles.

Two dozen you say...

SHOW ME

Especially since far more saw nothing of the sort.
 
Two dozen you say...

SHOW ME

Especially since far more saw nothing of the sort.

Having done it myself Maus, flying an airplane low level over a populated area attracts attention. Usually, if the airplane is out there long enough, some folks call 911 on their phone. If its a major metro area like DC airliners are low to the ground ONLY in approach corridors for the big airport. I can remember right after it happened that many folks on the ground reported seeing low flying aircraft. But only one of those objects struck the building. Wonder what it was?
 
I did not make it clear enough for you Mark, I did find fault, I did disagree with one major conclusion that the dude made. He "concluded" that no flying object, no missile, no nothing, struck the Pentagon. And I was roundly criticized for having suggested that it is POSSIBLE that some flying object struck the building, in addition to the explosives that were already placed there.

But as for interviewing the people who actually saw the airplane, he did one helluva job, and I thanked him for it. :mrgreen:

BS as usual
 
Having done it myself Maus, flying an airplane low level over a populated area attracts attention. Usually, if the airplane is out there long enough, some folks call 911 on their phone. If its a major metro area like DC airliners are low to the ground ONLY in approach corridors for the big airport. I can remember right after it happened that many folks on the ground reported seeing low flying aircraft. But only one of those objects struck the building. Wonder what it was?

BS you have never flown a plane in your life
 
Yes I have been to DC. Several times over many years. I am always driven when I am there.

Thank you for admitting you did not see it hit the ground, you are honest. Truth is that we were fooled on that day, tricked into believing a story that is not actually true.

I sound redundant, but there is little about the story that is true. Impossible phone calls from airliners. A military exercise being conducted that morning wondered whether it was exercise or real-life? We were all deceived that day about small details, but the story has been kept alive with movies made and such.

next time there

go to crystal city

head towards DCA...the airport

turn around at the 1 mile marker or so

or use google maps to give you a better grasp

your theory has a lot of holes in it

i am just one of many
 
Having done it myself Maus, flying an airplane low level over a populated area attracts attention. Usually, if the airplane is out there long enough, some folks call 911 on their phone. If its a major metro area like DC airliners are low to the ground ONLY in approach corridors for the big airport. I can remember right after it happened that many folks on the ground reported seeing low flying aircraft. But only one of those objects struck the building. Wonder what it was?

Oh, look....

A blatant non-answer.
 
Will someone please ask our resident "flight instructor" At what altitude he did these low level flights over populated areas, because there are rules about how low you can be and none of them are what pilots call "low level", Since he has me on ignore because he got tired of me proving him wrong all the time he wont/cant reply to my question if I ask him directly.
 
There are probably hundreds of threads on this. Let me start by saying that I am not a conspiracy theorist at all and never have been. However, there are many questions that have been left unanswered.

1. Flight 93 allegedly crashed in Shanksville, PA.
Q. Why were there no bodies or luggage at the "crash site"?
Q. Why was there no plane wreckage at the "crash site"?

2. An alleged plane hits the Pentagon.
Q. Why was there a near perfectly round hole in the outer wall with no wing sections or tail section on the ground?

EVER heard of the flying ****stick? im not sure who was behind it. but it is possible someone on dp knows, and knows what measures must be taken.
 
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