9/11 Skeptics, how did it happen? (1 Viewer)

[ricksfolly]

What I said was 100% fact. MKULTRA, which involved experimentation in mind control, was not able to be fully investigated because a lot of the documents and other evidence was destroyed.

Mind control is nothing new. They do it with TV commercials all the time.

ricksfolly

 

[ricksfolly]

Says the person who found out about what I would have to guess was a secret program? If they were good at it...you wouldn't know about it.

Just for yuk yuks; whats the statute of limitations on secrets? I mean....lets say that the next 40 years are like the last 8; no evidence of US government complicity....at the 48 year mark would you admit that there was no complicity or does the paranoia ever cease?

Questions of why, who, how, and what, follow all wars. We still don't know who fired the shot that started the Civil war.

ricksfolly

 

[Demon of Light]

Says the person who found out about what I would have to guess was a secret program? If they were good at it...you wouldn't know about it.

Knowing about something or suspecting something is quite meaningless if you cannot prove it or make anything of it. That bit from maddox about the guy from Loose Change not being killed is laughable, because it presumes that he posed any serious threat. If someone is going to be killed it is because they can provide something truly damning.

For instance, if one were to find documentation or proof that Sirhan Sirhan was a subject of MKULTRA and that this was more than mere coincidence, they would most likely end up dead.

I am not suggesting that is the case, but more that proof of something like that would be a primary target for concealment.

One some level a certain amount of leaked information that creates controversy is a boon to the establishment as it creates this specter of vulnerability allowing the masses to think they have control. If people think they've found a damning secret and that their elected representatives fought for their interests in exposing this scandal they are more likely to question accusations of more nefarious activity.

Just for yuk yuks; whats the statute of limitations on secrets? I mean....lets say that the next 40 years are like the last 8; no evidence of US government complicity....at the 48 year mark would you admit that there was no complicity or does the paranoia ever cease?

Even today the Reichstag Fire is described by many historians as the sole work of van der Lubbe because those involved were killed and any evidence from the scene implicating the Nazis destroyed. A successful coverup can allow a secret to be kept for decades or even centuries. Also, I would challenge the notion there is no evidence of complicity, rather the evidence does not prove conspiracy as of yet.

Meaning, there is evidence available indicating a criminal failure to act or some criminal assistance, but not evidence that elements of the government conspired to cause the attack.

I think if you want to know what a 9-11 conspiracy most likely looked like you should consider the Reichstag Fire or Operation Gladio. In those instances groups outside the government were involved, but were put in a position where they could carry out actions and ultimately take the blame while the guilty parties in government have plausible deniability.

To implicate officials in the U.S. government of conspiracy we would have to not only prove a connection between said officials and those who carried out the attacks, but prove they conspired with those individuals. The former might be possible to prove, providing there are not many intermediaries, but the latter would likely prove impossible in any good coverup.

I forget who it was that said Mossad's greatest successes would never be known, but that is essentially the idea of a good conspiracy. Organized crime has such success all the time. Look at Jimmy Hoffa. While I think they may have found where he was killed, by the time this place was located any DNA was too degraded to prove anything conclusively.

All we have are our suspicions and circumstantial evidence, but nothing that will convince the most ardent of skeptics or allow a conviction in a fair trial.

 

[BmanMcfly]

So let me see if I get you straight. All the government agencies, police, various terrorist groups, the Bush administration (I would assume Clinton and Obama administration as well), hundreds of special interest in the war, oil companies, etc whoever you think is invovled has been able to keep this secret this entire time...without one person blowing a whistle this entire time?

No... definitely not all... It's called 'compartmentalization'. There's probably in the area of 15-20 people that were 'masterminds' behind 9-11 (assuming that I'm correct of course), these people throughout their global influence put Osama bin laden where he needed to be to train the people and take care of the 'hijacking' end of things... he may have even legitimately thought it was his cause (though the CIA has came out and admitted that the faked some of the bin laden tapes, without ever discussing which tapes were faked... though I'd highly suspect that since the 'fat bin laden' came out and took credit they have been fabrications)

The agency actually did make a video purporting to show Osama bin Laden and his cronies sitting around a campfire swigging bottles of liquor and savoring their conquests with boys, one of the former CIA officers recalled, chuckling at the memory. The actors were drawn from “some of us darker-skinned employees,” he said.

SpyTalk - CIA unit's wacky idea: Depict Saddam as gay

Anyway, the point is :
- Government agencies : contain certain highly influential and simultaneously highly corrupt individuals who act under the banner of their agency on behalf of 'the cabal' (the ideal term, as Rockefeller, a key and self-confessed member of this cabal, coined the term)
- police : In the lower ranks of course there are MANY good cops, I'd say that even MOST cops, even corrupt ones generally care about the 'best interests' of the people. However, for the most part, most police brass, while not necessarily in the cabal, through their education and 'grooming' are in-line with the 'suggestions' of the cabal.
- various terrorist groups : are also in-line with many government agencies / ties with those agencies... many of these groups are simply 'fronts' for intelligence altogether... this way they can get the word to the right people where to strike and they have a group that will play patsy... in other segments this would be called 'controlled opposition'. This does NOT mean that there are not terrorist attacks, and real terror groups... there definitely are some of those... their attacks generally won't make front page news because they will actually target things that go against the 'cabal's interests'.
- The cabal 'selects' the two people that will make it to the primaries, and so regardless of your vote the cabal wins.... this has been true AT LEAST since JFK's assassination.
- The military industrial complex : re: government agencies.

Now, the majority of the people that would have any level of 'involvement' below the cabal would have known less and less information about the attacks, until the boots on the ground level where all they knew was their job for the day / weeks that were relevant to the tasks that they were allocated... most people like their jobs, and do their jobs without asking too many questions.

Well, I'm going to slowly step backwards now.....

Are you stepping back because the topics make you uncomfortable and has scary repurcussions? Is it cause the prospect of this possibly being true is making you scared?

Oh but I have an even better theory, that the 9/11 conspiracy theory was made in theory so that the people that invented the theory could cash in on it....in theory.

I'd be lying if I didn't admit that some are in it for the money... Some are real... you need your own discernment.

What is important is that you try to figure out which side you're going to pick... Most of us are probably going to hell anyway, so would you want to fight for good and possibly change that outcome, or would you rather, since you're relegated to a hell, make sure that you become a general in that hell??

No not really because this entire thread is just one big joke to me. So Mulder, what else can you tell us about our U.S. government?

Look up the "tuskegee experiment" or "tuskegee experiment video" in the search engine of your choice. Come back when you realize that this is not make believe.

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

Listen, as far as the defense network goes, the drills really went on, they DID create a level of confusion that MAY or MAY NOT have prevented the attacks from occurring (leaning towards it wouldn't have changed anything)... There are some air traffic controllers that have spoken out and said that even as things stood back in the 80's that it shouldn't have played out as it did...

Except now you are maybe finally realising it is just coincidence that these exercises happened the same day as a disasterous event (it does happen) and that exercises or not there would STILL have been confusion and very little time to do anyhting, so were you being truly honest (with yourself mostly) you would REMOVE this from your list of "co-incidences" and beliefs now ...

It should be one "layer" peeled off and discarded ... will you do that, or, as I suspect still keep it in place, as the less "layers", the less likely any real conspiracy !!!

And as for people believing it shouldn't have played out that way ... means nothing really, people say that all the time about lots of things ... just because something shouldn't have happened does not mean it can't happen !!!

Ya, most people have been hit hard by the fluoride / aspartame / mercury that they have been exposed to for the better part of their lives...

Well considering that the vast majority of people have regular use and/or interaction of additives, chemicals, etc, etc, etc how come is it that not everybody is as equally stupid, dense or controlled ???

Your obviously not, so what makes you somehow "immune" to all these effects ... have you never, ever, ever, taken any foods or drinks with additives or used chemicals throughout your entire life ... and yet DESPITE all these controls and stuff, here you are openly discussing these things ???

Why do we still have fighting, dissent and distrust if we are all being "controlled" or drugged ???

Why do we still have excellence in the fields of science, engineering, technology, medicine, art, sport, etc, etc, etc IF we are all being dumbed-down and poisoned from every direction ???

Why is technology advancing ???

Why is the population growing ???

Why are people living longer ???

Millions were in germ war tests | Politics | The Observer
Just to show at least 1 mainstream article discussing stuff being sprayed overhead.

But here is the rub B'man ... it was NOT actual harmful pathogens that were being sprayed ... but naturally occuring more harmless ones.

The trials used NOT actual biological agents ... but SUBSTITUTE harmless agents which would mimic the way the "real" pathogens would if ever actually released (in a German or Russian attack).

Records which were released of UK Government files showed the results of Biological Weapons trials between 1940 and 1979 carried out MOSTLY at Dstl, Porton Down in Wiltshire.

Were there any serious legitimate concern or need for secrecy those records would simply NEVER have been cleared for open public release !!!

It is that simple B'man ... gubmints can keep records sealed forever if need be ... so the mere fact that these are available publically shows them to be of no real concern ... that CT'ers jump on them is not unexpected, but hey! they are CT'ers, people whom have a deeply suspicious mindset regarding things they do not fully understand and have an almost pathological mistrust in anything "official".

(I am making generalized claims here B'man, so please do not take them personally)

In my experience most CT'ers are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories if they feel powerless in the face of large social authorities or institutions and almost NEED to believe that we live in a stable and predictable world, so prefer to seek out simple accounts of a complex world.

Even a world where there is great planning for harm is MORE secure than one full of random violence ... a world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable.

Therefore a grand disaster like 9/11 needs a "grand" conspiracy behind it.

Or that someone as special as a Princess could die in something as mundane,ordinary and boring as a drink-driving accident ... no some complex secret "conspiracy" is more believable, as well as exciting !!!

But real reality is shown to be more a series of ****-up theories, the absolute antithesis of conspiracy theories !!!

But in simplifying their stance it also means that some deeply fundamental information never surfaces ... given the choice between a vast global conspiracy and plain ordinary everyday human stupidity, arrogance and incompetence ... put your money on human error.

NEVER underestimate the power of human stupidity !!!

Yet I think they like the feeling of control that this gives them "... everyone else is fooled, but "I" know the real truth."

But many people are just mindlessly gullible and fall for anything if presented in a manner as to have obvious and defined baddies and bogeymen ...

Ergo the classic ... Us against Them mindset !!!

Thinking themselves skeptical for "just asking questions" or being open-minded, but here is the thing ... that is NOT true skepticism ... the more outrageous the claim the higher the standard of evidence is required to prove it ... and the vast majority of conspiracy believers do no more than the most superficial checking of the favoured claim.

They almost religiously buy into it ... automatically believing it, for no better reason than it is putting whatever current or previous bogeyman in a bad light ... conspiracism sees secret plots by tiny cabals of evildoers as the major motor powering virtually every single important historical event.

But the major problem with that, is that they tend to impute cartoonish motives to "them" ... "them" being the evil elites who operate in the shadows ... yet the end result often feels like a heavily plotted B-movie whose characters do quite not ring true !!!

Then there are other cognitive "Do Not Enter" signs ... in that when history ceases to resemble a train of conflicts and ambiguities and becomes instead a series of "disinformation" campaigns ... you sense that a basic self-correcting mechanism of thought has been disabled.

A bridge is out ... and paranoia yawns below !!!

One of the, I find, remarkable features of these kind of "theories" is that they are by definition unverifiable ... lack of evidence (seemingly) only proves how great the conspiracy actually is ...

This is the very opposite of true scientific theory !!!

Off topic, but quite succinctly shows just how gullible people whom consider themselves reasonably aware can be ... it is Penn and Teller showing the absolute crud surrounding the bottled water industry ...

YouTube - ‪The Truth About Bottled Water‬‎

Here in Scotland, we genuinely do have exceptionally pure and clean cold tap water, yet people STILL think bottled is better ... nothing can dissuade them from this idea EVEN when shown it's not ... but people can be exceptionally defensive of a long-held belief and resist change, for no-body likes to be proven wrong !!!

It is an admittance of weakness or fallability ... and no-one likes feeling such.

Crank Dot Net | psychology

(Sorry I digress ... see what happens when posting after a few wee glasses of some of my very fav plonk ... )

Anyhows, back to the topic in hand ...

Regarding the spray tests ... the pathogens used were Escherichia coli and BACILLUS GLOBIGII ...

E.COLLI is a NATURALLY forming bacterium found in the gut of most animals and is ONLY dangerous to humans when they ingest (eat) something such as raw and undercooked meat, some dairy products and unpasteurised fruit juices.

E.Coli infection affects the young and elderly the most, and when it leads to hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS), it can be fatal and is the leading cause of renal failure in young children.

Yet it was ONLY used to trace how far the live bacteria spread and would cause ZERO harm to humans in the air.

Escherichia coli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

E. coli Infection -- familydoctor.org

~~~~~~~~~~

BACILLUS GLOBIGII is again a NATURALLY occuring bacterium found in HAY and decomposing SOIL and is known to survive extreme enviromental changes ... so was used in an airborne spray to test survivability in differing conditions.

Bacillus subtilis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Identification and Quantitation of Bacillus globigii Using Metal Enhanced Electrochemical Detection and Capillary Biosensor - Analytical Chemistry (ACS Publications)

It is NOT a human pathogen ... so has very little or no effect on humans !!!

But it is added to the Korean delicacy paste "Cheonggukjang" (daughter loves it, she and her father shared a bottle of Champagne and jar of it outside bar in Noo Yoik last time she out there ... yuuuck :2sick1: )

The tests were designed to help predict the spread of an airborne pathogen such as ANTHRAX.

But these two bacillus' ONLY connection to ANTHRAX is that it is has the SAME physical characteristics ... SIZE, DENSITY, WEIGHT etc.

There was simply no direct danger to the public by these tests ... period !!!

~~~~~~~~~~~

ZINC SULPHIDE (yet another occuring naturally as SPHALERITE mineral) was added as an ELECTROMINISCENCE material ... meaning the electrons emit their energy as PHOTONS (LIGHT)... in other words they GLOWED (like a Glowstick) ... and were used to physically SEE how the test materials moved in the air.

Zinc sulfide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People with compromised immune systems may indeed have been affected by inhilation of large amounts ... but it would be a VERY VERY small group and require such large amounts as to be unfeasable.

And as these tests were carried out between 46 and 54 YEARS ago ... then gaps in knowledge of potential dangers and the morality of such testing are understandable,

They simply didn't KNOW THEN that we know today!!!

Or even think the same way about things like this ... don't forget this was the era when smoking and cigarettes were seen as of being no danger ... pregnant women were actually prescribed cigarettes as a calming substance !!!

We know MORE than we did THEN... so any harm "potentially" caused was done in ignorance rather than deliberate harm !!!

Again B'man this is another case of conspiracist taking a little information and presenting it in such a way as it "seem" suspicious and hazardous.

And when looked at more fully and thouroughly you see it is, yet again, conspiracists making mountains out of molehills.

That old adage is so true ... a little knowledge is a dangerous thing !!!

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

I'll start looking for some of the publicly available government documents and school text books that discuss the spraying of chemicals into the atmosphere, as well as the ingredients in these sprays (barium / aluminum salts primarily).

Look forward to it, but I feel safe in saying I feel an ass-whuppin coming up ... for I already know where you are going with this. ...

(I'll get in the bruise cream )

Perhaps it would be better to continue this in a new thread ... as entirely different topic to 9/11 and would prevent this one from going even more off-topic any more than it already has ... but, please, do see if you can find anything supportive of chemtrails that DOESN'T originate from Carnicom !!!

Before I do that, I've been made aware of an EVEN MORE PRESSING issue that's been brought to my attention... and this is the proposal of adding anti-psychotic medication to the drinking water of populations... I mean, fluoride is one thing, but adding heavy metals to the water supply in the name of 'suicide prevention'.... this is getting so absurd all I can do is just shake my head... look for that one in the 'general discussion' forum because it's all mainstream sources.

Seriously B'man ... it is a HUGE leap in logic to link an article in some obscure blog to a outright "proposal" for wholesale dosing of public water supplies !!!

Just because there have been some studies done and a DISCUSSION of the pros and cons does not mean there is ANY actual intent or forward plan.

You seriously need to get over that these intellectual exercises, studies and discussions are in any way an indication of definite future reality ... science openly discusses thousands of ideas ... most of which will never come to pass.

This is no more than just intellectual masturbation !!!

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

Mind control is nothing new. They do it with TV commercials all the time.

ricksfolly

So that's why we all don't buy the same brand of coffee or make-up ... it's all in the mind control ... whoda thunk it :doh !!!

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

Also, I would challenge the notion there is no evidence of complicity, rather the evidence does not prove conspiracy as of yet.

Nice "get-out" clause there Demon ... but please do, if you belive you have actual evidence WHAT is preventing you from presenting it ... please do not say Da Ebil Gubmint ... as nowadays with the ease of the Internet and international travel it would be a simple thing to have that "evidence" presented to the global world and media WITHOUT interference or control said ebil gubmint ???

Why has no twoofer group commissioned a truly independent inquiry and investigation abroad ... ???

Why has no twoofer group tried for a criminal investigation in one of the international courts ... ???

 

[BmanMcfly]

So that's why we all don't buy the same brand of coffee or make-up ... it's all in the mind control ... whoda thunk it :doh !!!

To keep it simple, it'd be better to call commercials 'mind manipulation' rather then 'mind control'.

PS : The engineer I talked to over the weekend said to the effect : I didn't research the findings deeply, but professionally I would put stock in NIST's findings... and that it was somewhat irrelevant because there was already the military response.

I did not want to push the issue further and wind up alienating him, as a further aside, I did also get to talk to a police officer about the G8/G20 meetings and the agents provocateurs, after the discussion he made the concession that police WOULD use such tactics but that they know the "thumping" they would get if they did so in front of the police and so it would be a minority of police provocateuring as a means of "striking the match" to see if the protesters also become violent.

 

[BmanMcfly]

Look forward to it, but I feel safe in saying I feel an ass-whuppin coming up ... for I already know where you are going with this. ...

(I'll get in the bruise cream )

Perhaps it would be better to continue this in a new thread ... as entirely different topic to 9/11 and would prevent this one from going even more off-topic any more than it already has ... but, please, do see if you can find anything supportive of chemtrails that DOESN'T originate from Carnicom !!!

Yes... agreed..

Seriously B'man ... it is a HUGE leap in logic to link an article in some obscure blog to a outright "proposal" for wholesale dosing of public water supplies !!!

Just because there have been some studies done and a DISCUSSION of the pros and cons does not mean there is ANY actual intent or forward plan.

You seriously need to get over that these intellectual exercises, studies and discussions are in any way an indication of definite future reality ... science openly discusses thousands of ideas ... most of which will never come to pass.

This is no more than just intellectual masturbation !!!

The analogy... look at how water fluoridation became practice, it was passed as 'calcium' fluoride, NOT the 'sodium' fluoride that was used initially, and now is the 'catch-all' term Fluosilicic acid.

But yes, that's the extent that I will detract from 9-11... but 9-11 is still a core issue to so many of these larger issues, though much less so then specifically the cause-effect relationship... anyway... will be back shortly.

 

[LizardofOz]

15-20 people

I want names and addresses.

 

[Demon of Light]

Nice "get-out" clause there Demon ... but please do, if you belive you have actual evidence WHAT is preventing you from presenting it ... please do not say Da Ebil Gubmint ... as nowadays with the ease of the Internet and international travel it would be a simple thing to have that "evidence" presented to the global world and media WITHOUT interference or control said ebil gubmint ???

Why has no twoofer group commissioned a truly independent inquiry and investigation abroad ... ???

Why has no twoofer group tried for a criminal investigation in one of the international courts ... ???

It is not a "get-out" clause. I am merely dealing with the facts. The real problem with evidence and an investigation is how to do it and what to go after. People involved would naturally pressure any investigation and try to quash any independent inquiry. Without the ability to subpoena records or look at classified documents a non-governmental investigation would have trouble getting anywhere.

In order to have a serious investigation there needs to be greater public pressure and possibly a major change in the government itself.

 

[Coronado]

This is no more than just intellectual masturbation !!!

Oooh, may I watch? :wink2:

 

[Demon of Light]

But yes, that's the extent that I will detract from 9-11... but 9-11 is still a core issue to so many of these larger issues, though much less so then specifically the cause-effect relationship... anyway... will be back shortly.

Speaking of which it is interesting to note links between the Oklahoma City bombing and 9-11, specifically the Philippine connection. As Richard Clarke noted in his book Terry Nichols couldn't get his bombs to work before being in the Philippines, but after he was blowing up federal buildings. Yet despite this any talk of a connection with Islamic militants was suppressed. The reason this is notable is that one of the people Terry Nichols may have met with was Ramzi Yousef as well as two others who were involved with Yousef in planning the Bojinka Plot. With regards to that plot the third wave was described as an attack involving nearly a dozen airliners being used as missiles to attack major structures in the U.S. including those hit or intended to be hit on 9-11.

Yet, somewhere along the chain that information about the third wave went missing, possibly having been destroyed. Who destroyed it is another interesting question since the FBI noticed the apparent destruction of information after it went through the CIA. Given that someone in the CIA, apparently high up, was seemingly obstructing the investigation into Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar who were involved not only in plotting 9-11 but the U.S.S. Cole bombing it would not be out of the question that the person or persons involved with getting rid of Bojinka third wave info were also part and parcel to the obstruction of the potential exposure of two major 9-11 hijackers.

What we know from Sibel Edmonds provides another interesting avenue as it deals with CIA or State Department officials taking bribes and other favors to help foreign intelligence operatives from Turkey and other countries to infiltrate the U.S.

I just can't help but look at this network of connections and think about Operation Gladio, which seems to tie up CIA involvement with false-flag terror operations and assassinations all over Western Europe with the Algiers Putsch and Operation Condor.

 

[LizardofOz]

I neez teh namz ov teh conspirators nooowz

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

The real problem with evidence and an investigation is how to do it and what to go after. People involved would naturally pressure any investigation and try to quash any independent inquiry. Without the ability to subpoena records or look at classified documents a non-governmental investigation would have trouble getting anywhere.

In order to have a serious investigation there needs to be greater public pressure and possibly a major change in the government itself.

That's all very well and good Demon ... but can you think of any idea why an inquiry would STILL be a good idea done elsewhere ... despite having no supoena powers ???

The events of 9/11 were multi-faceted, covering various disciplines of science and engineering, notwithstanding the political, legal and moral issues.

And everything ... and I mean, everything hinges on the idea that it was a deliberate act by the US government ...

So the best way of garnishing the very much "needed" support of the wider public to ensure full and open governmental inquiry is to raise awareness of, at least, one aspect.

But by being such a complex event, you need start somewhere ... and one of the simplest and best way is to prove conclusively that the science and engineering supposedly "behind" the collapses is REAL !!!

Science can be demonstrated anywhere and needs no politics ... and if could be demonstrably and unequivocably proven would raise that much needed public support ... as well as the added weight and gravitas of the wider worlds scientific and engineering communities.

Instead of just endless "theories" ... there would be absolute and incontrovertable proof of conspiracy, which by being done in another truly automomous country, such as Switzerland, would be the linch-pin to help proving the rest.

Prove conclusively that science and the rest falls into place easier !!!

And by being in such a neutral country would have a guarantee of impartiality and freedom from either US influence or control ... which would help ENORMOUSLY to gain respectability and authority.

Instead, what the twoof movement is is this jumbled hotch-potch of different disparate groups, spouting at times, completely mutually incompatable "theories" and which are just grasping for business (books, videos, tee-shirts, dog bowls, etc, etc, etc ... donations) ... with Gage being the worst, travelling the world with donated monies endlessly touting for signatures for his indeterminate on-line petition.

Yet there is nothing as impotent as some never-ending petition ... which the longer it lasts becomes ever more useless and ineffectual !!!

So how come in all this time, no twoofs or groups have ever grasped this simple and workable idea to get together more organizedly and by pooling resources could commission their own truly objective scientific and/or engineering study someplace abroad ... perchance it is because deep, deep, deep, deep down within themselves they just "know" their "theories" would be shown for the frauds they are ... as well as turn off the cash cows many of these groups truly are !!!

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

Oooh, may I watch? :wink2:

I'm a respectable grand-mother I'll have you know young man ... *tsk* *tsk* *sniff* !!!

Early to bed and no supper for you ... :spank:

 

[LizardofOz]

So I guess I'm never going to get the pleasure of getting the names of this 15-20 Illuminati that seek to change the total face of America for a couple barrels of oil?

 

[Demon of Light]

That's all very well and good Demon ... but can you think of any idea why an inquiry would STILL be a good idea done elsewhere ... despite having no supoena powers ???

The events of 9/11 were multi-faceted, covering various disciplines of science and engineering, notwithstanding the political, legal and moral issues.

And everything ... and I mean, everything hinges on the idea that it was a deliberate act by the US government ...

So the best way of garnishing the very much "needed" support of the wider public to ensure full and open governmental inquiry is to raise awareness of, at least, one aspect.

But by being such a complex event, you need start somewhere ... and one of the simplest and best way is to prove conclusively that the science and engineering supposedly "behind" the collapses is REAL !!!

Science can be demonstrated anywhere and needs no politics ... and if could be demonstrably and unequivocably proven would raise that much needed public support ... as well as the added weight and gravitas of the wider worlds scientific and engineering communities.

Instead of just endless "theories" ... there would be absolute and incontrovertable proof of conspiracy, which by being done in another truly automomous country, such as Switzerland, would be the linch-pin to help proving the rest.

Prove conclusively that science and the rest falls into place easier !!!

And by being in such a neutral country would have a guarantee of impartiality and freedom from either US influence or control ... which would help ENORMOUSLY to gain respectability and authority.

Instead, what the twoof movement is is this jumbled hotch-potch of different disparate groups, spouting at times, completely mutually incompatable "theories" and which are just grasping for business (books, videos, tee-shirts, dog bowls, etc, etc, etc ... donations) ... with Gage being the worst, travelling the world with donated monies endlessly touting for signatures for his indeterminate on-line petition.

Yet there is nothing as impotent as some never-ending petition ... which the longer it lasts becomes ever more useless and ineffectual !!!

So how come in all this time, no twoofs or groups have ever grasped this simple and workable idea to get together more organizedly and by pooling resources could commission their own truly objective scientific and/or engineering study someplace abroad ... perchance it is because deep, deep, deep, deep down within themselves they just "know" their "theories" would be shown for the frauds they are ... as well as turn off the cash cows many of these groups truly are !!!

I think many conspiracy theorists get bogged down too much in disproving what happened during an event. An investigation looks at more than the physical evidence, especially when there is a conspiracy involved. There is a distinct possibility that there was no controlled demolition or missiles or remote-controlled planes and the attacks themselves played out just as described in the official history. If this is the case then no scientific investigation will ever prove a conspiracy. At the same time if the official version of the attack is wrong looking into who else was involved could reveal this without the need of a scientific investigation.

 

[Coronado]

So I guess I'm never going to get the pleasure of getting the names of this 15-20 Illuminati that seek to change the total face of America for a couple barrels of oil?

It's so secret that not even those fifteen to twenty people know.

:screwy

 

[BmanMcfly]

I want names and addresses.

I neez teh namz ov teh conspirators nooowz

So I guess I'm never going to get the pleasure of getting the names of this 15-20 Illuminati that seek to change the total face of America for a couple barrels of oil?

You make it out like this is just some reasonable demand... If you dig deep enough Rockefeller has his hands in just about everything you can think of, and he's got the resources and clout to have been a 'mastermind' behind 9-11... he's got a place in New York City, I believe.

On that same token, Kissinger, is often seen with Rockefeller at many of the (between secret to closed door) meetings that they have a couple times a year... don't know any addresses for him though.

Maurice Strong, is another of the same caliber.

Through their various ties, those 3 alone could probably have the influence and clout to account for the north american parts of 9-11... better yet, Rockefeller has written a book where he ADMITS to being part of this cabal working against the interests of America to bring about a one world government... (Yes, I_Gaze, this WAS his intended context, don't make me link up the 2 pages surrounding the specific quote again)

 

[LizardofOz]

You make it out like this is just some reasonable demand... If you dig deep enough Rockefeller has his hands in just about everything you can think of, and he's got the resources and clout to have been a 'mastermind' behind 9-11... he's got a place in New York City, I believe.

On that same token, Kissinger, is often seen with Rockefeller at many of the (between secret to closed door) meetings that they have a couple times a year... don't know any addresses for him though.

Maurice Strong, is another of the same caliber.

Through their various ties, those 3 alone could probably have the influence and clout to account for the north american parts of 9-11... better yet, Rockefeller has written a book where he ADMITS to being part of this cabal working against the interests of America to bring about a one world government... (Yes, I_Gaze, this WAS his intended context, don't make me link up the 2 pages surrounding the specific quote again)

Are suggesting Loose Change or Zeitgeist by chance?

 

[BmanMcfly]

Are suggesting Loose Change or Zeitgeist by chance?

If I were to give someone a 9-11 movie, it wouldn't be loose change... like it's been pointed out, there are more pressing issues then 9-11 to be handing out films, as for zeitgeist, it's mostly crap.

There are FAR better films of that nature, more hard hitting, and better researched then either of those.

Ultimately, I'd tell people to think for themselves... I mean, 90% of the 9-11 debunking tactics boils down to : coincidence, ad hom, strawmen, or the shifting of goal posts.

Even though, the media in the wake of 9-11, with the assistance of the president engaged in a tactic developed back with the MK-ULTRA projects, called 'trauma based mind control'. Where, after the trauma some VERY SPECIFIC suggestions were made that effectively implanted those in much the same way that a hypnotist will get someone to bark like a dog for people's entertainment, except without the 'safety' of snapping your fingers awake.

How many people do you know that were simply glued to their screens for WEEKS after 9-11??? I've experienced people that would nearly become violent at the prospect of such questions for at least a year or two after 9-11.

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

I think many conspiracy theorists get bogged down too much in disproving what happened during an event. An investigation looks at more than the physical evidence, especially when there is a conspiracy involved. There is a distinct possibility that there was no controlled demolition or missiles or remote-controlled planes and the attacks themselves played out just as described in the official history. If this is the case then no scientific investigation will ever prove a conspiracy. At the same time if the official version of the attack is wrong looking into who else was involved could reveal this without the need of a scientific investigation.

What complete bunk !!!

Again Demon ... if the science does ... as it actually does do ... shows that there was no controlled demolition ... no explosives ... no thermite, super-dupper nano-thermite, thermate or even just plain termites ... alongside no cruise missiles and no yadda ... yadda ... yadda ... it in fact PROVES there was ZERO deliberate demolition of the buildings and shoot-down of planes.

And WITHOUT all that it LESSENS the real possibilty of any "conspiracy" ... for YEARS across forums, blogs and some small scale protests twoofs have been LOUDLY shouting "inside jobby-jobby by controlled demolition".

It has been Da Twoof movements whole raison d'être ...

Yet here is someone completely back-tracking from that ... whilst still holding on to the merest chance and possibility it is still "cons-piracy" !!!

But here is the thing, Demon ... WITHOUT all that sciency stuff there IS no conspiracy !!!

All those claims are shown to be wholly WITHOUT merit ... so now EVEN although it played out as seen, it "somehow" is still a conspiracy ... come on, bit more common sense please !!!

The ONLY thing the US government were guilty of was INCOMPETENCE, STUPIDITY and the ARROGANCE of the big bully whom thinks he is invincible and invulerable to attack at home !!!

That is it ... 9/11 was what it was ... an attack on the American people on home soil by fanatical and suicidal extremists with the will and mandate to cause fear and terror.

For what possible reason could it NOT be just what is seen and stated ... an attack on the the US by a political and religious enemy ???

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

You make it out like this is just some reasonable demand... If you dig deep enough Rockefeller has his hands in just about everything you can think of, and he's got the resources and clout to have been a 'mastermind' behind 9-11... he's got a place in New York City, I believe.

On that same token, Kissinger, is often seen with Rockefeller at many of the (between secret to closed door) meetings that they have a couple times a year... don't know any addresses for him though.

Maurice Strong, is another of the same caliber.

Through their various ties, those 3 alone could probably have the influence and clout to account for the north american parts of 9-11... better yet, Rockefeller has written a book where he ADMITS to being part of this cabal working against the interests of America to bring about a one world government... (Yes, I_Gaze, this WAS his intended context, don't make me link up the 2 pages surrounding the specific quote again)

So what your trying to say B'man is that 9/11 was done by a relatively small cabal of rich elite and powerful individuals.

What EXACTLY did these people do then to commit this ... are we supposed to believe that this "small cabal" of individuals, whom would STILL need massive amounts of "need to know" specialists, and yet not one has ever kept a document, an email, and none of them are smart enough to figure out what they helped do ???

Really ???

You mention Rockerfeller ... but the guy is 95 years old ... so what did he actually do ???

Got evidence B'man or just your personal speculation and conspiribelief ???

Now, Rockerfeller could only just have been involved in the "supposed" planning and perhaps funding sides ... as by being so elderly he could just not have really DONE much ... he would still have needed to RELY on many other people to carry out this supposed plan !!!

So, do you actually have anything to justify this ... no quotes from a 2002 book where he was obviously being facetious ... but hard physical, proper evidence ... letters, e-mails, money transfers, invoices for equipment ... real stuff and not interpretive reading ???

Kissinger is an 87 year old, whom is now only known for advisory roles ...

Maurice Strong is an 81 year old Canadian, whom mostly lives in China ...

These are old men ... for what possible reason would "they" have either needed or wanted 9/11 ... besides wasn't it all da ebil gubmint before doin' it to get hold of Afghanistans non-existant oil ...

Afghanistan Oil - proved reserves - Economy

Again B'man have you got FACTUAL reasons for this and not just the atypical resentment over powerful people whose words gets mangled ... again, real stuff ... not speculative !!!

Speculation is NOT evidence !!!

But you STILL have no explanation for why there has been no whistleblowing from those OTHERS whom would have been very, very, very NEEDED to commit such an act ... do you seriously think that MORE people would not be physically required to carry out the various technical sides of such a huge operation ... and do you seriously think that those individuals would not BY now have come to "realise" that they were involved, in however small a part, and STILL keep quiet ???

Common sense tells you ... no !!!

Consider Wikileaks where information LEAKS from EVERYTHING, from US nuclear secrets, missile launch codes, Mafia informers (we all know what happens to people who squeal, but they keep on squealing) ... to let's not forget that Clinton (Magister mundi sum he was) whom couldn't keep a blowjob from an intern secret ... gets put into the very public eye !!!

Linda Tripp - WikiLeaks

Watching how they have shown the US government up over various State Department, Afghan war documentation and other leaks shows us that ANY whistleblower who had inside information on 9/11 could EASILY leak any incriminating documents and still be safe ... yet no such documents have EVER been leaked.

This huge event involving a massive loss of life has spurred no-one to spill the beans ... no-one has felt guilty ... understandable in those heartless Illuminati-types ... but what of the ordinary guy, just doing his job, whom now realises, he was an accomplice to the biggest act of mass murder on American soil ...

Why would these people ... whom stand to gain NOTHING from silence ... choose to not come forward ???

9/11 Pager data

Wikileaks 9/11 Text Messages? - JREF Forum

Go figure !!!