9/11 Conspiracy Group Could Force Its Way Onto Ballot

[Bob0627]

What you are doing is trying to derail the discussion so you don't have to answer the question I have been posing to you almost daily for the last two weeks. You result to schoolyard insults and petty name-calling because deep down I think you realize just how laughable it is to think the plotters of this highly secret endeavor felt compelled to issue a press release announcing all of their plans yet not a single one of the tens of thousands who had to be in on it has spilled the beans.

What would be laughable is the above nonsense, that's if it wasn't such a pathetically ridiculous claim. Trying to invent what I think to try to entertain the "we" gang doesn't help make you sound genuine, trust me on this. At least you're creative, too bad you take your creativity in the wrong direction.

Anyway, I'm guilty of falling for the same tired old tactic of participating in your distraction of the topic of this thread, which is still:

9/11 Conspiracy Group Could Force Its Way Onto Ballot

It's much more interesting than you or me. This is a really good tactic in my opinion even though I'm not very optimistic as to success. There have been many different approaches to try to get a real investigation into 9/11 going. Hopefully, one of these will eventually succeed to some significant degree. I'm sure you can hardly wait, eh Mark?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

What you are doing is trying to derail the discussion so you don't have to answer the question I have been posing to you almost daily for the last two weeks. You result to schoolyard insults and petty name-calling because deep down I think you realize just how laughable it is to think the plotters of this highly secret endeavor felt compelled to issue a press release announcing all of their plans yet not a single one of the tens of thousands who had to be in on it has spilled the beans.

If you don't realize how ridiculous that is you have my pity.

It would be interesting to see you explain why you believe tens of thousands would have to have been involved in a conspiracy to take down three buildings via controlled demolition in a ruse claiming aircraft impact and fire did it to two of them and fire alone to the third.

 

[mike2810]

It would be interesting to see you explain why you believe tens of thousands would have to have been involved in a conspiracy to take down three buildings via controlled demolition in a ruse claiming aircraft impact and fire did it to two of them and fire alone to the third.

Maybe you will give a response. No one else really wanted to address this.

From the section on Purpose:
“By requiring the Department of Buildings to investigate high-rise building collapses, the High-Rise Safety Initiative will help ensure that we never see another building collapse in New York City. “

From the section World Trade Center 7:
“A new investigation by the City of New York will allow for these shortcomings to be addressed, thus furthering our understanding of how World Trade Center 7 collapsed and leading to safer building design in the future.”

One can understand the purpose of a new investigation with an outcome for new codes to prevent fire induced collapse in high rises.

It is very unclear if one is trying to address new codes to “prevent another building collapse”in NYC that is the results of a planned and executed controlled demolition.

I will post again these questions:

What new codes could be written and enforced that would stop a controlled demolition being carried out by someone/group wishing to do harm?
What civil liberties would be given up to ensure that no event like 9/11 ever happens again?
and last
Why would the group present this under the pretense of safety, if as one poster stated the real intent of the inititative is to have an investigation conclude it was controlled deomolition?

Developing additional codes for fire safety in high rises due to fire induced collapse may need further investigation and study.
Developing additional codes to stop unplanned controlled demolition by a group wanting to do harm does not need a new study of the building structure. Security measures, etc. maybe.

The petition is being presented under false pretense. It is interesting also they limit the scope by not including WTC 1 or 2.

But hey, if NYC citizens want to pay 1% more for construction, more power to them.

 

[Mark F]

It would be interesting to see you explain why you believe tens of thousands would have to have been involved in a conspiracy to take down three buildings via controlled demolition in a ruse claiming aircraft impact and fire did it to two of them and fire alone to the third.

There is quite a bit more to it than that and it should take even someone like you only a few moments to easily come up with well in excess of 10,000 people who would have to be complicit in the attacks and subsequent coverup. Heck Bob here thinks the plotters issued press releases bragging about the whole thing right down to local TV affiliates. That's an ocean liner full of folks right there. You guys think NIST was in on it - that's about 2,000 people. Presumably you think the preceding FEMA/ASCE investigation was also part of the cover up so add a few thousand more. The FBI - 7,000 agents. The NTSB, the Pentagon, Congress, the Justice Department, Immigration, the FDNY, NYPD, NEADS, FAA, Boeing, Larry Silverstein Properties Inc, etc, etc, etc,....

Doesn't take long at all. You just have to be able to think for a moment.

 

[mike2810]

There is quite a bit more to it than that and it should take even someone like you only a few moments to easily come up with well in excess of 10,000 people who would have to be complicit in the attacks and subsequent coverup. Heck Bob here thinks the plotters issued press releases bragging about the whole thing right down to local TV affiliates. That's an ocean liner full of folks right there. You guys think NIST was in on it - that's about 2,000 people. Presumably you think the preceding FEMA/ASCE investigation was also part of the cover up so add a few thousand more. The FBI - 7,000 agents. The NTSB, the Pentagon, Congress, the Justice Department, Immigration, the FDNY, NYPD, NEADS, FAA, Boeing, Larry Silverstein Properties Inc, etc, etc, etc,....

Doesn't take long at all. You just have to be able to think for a moment.

Good reponse to Tony's comment.

Ever noticed how some want to redirect away from the OP and the so called safety inititative. The petition is a scam because of how it is misrepresenting the true intent under the guise of "Safety"

 

[NWO_Spook]

The petition is a scam because of how it is misrepresenting the true intent under the guise of "Safety"

Well, it is a truther (ahem) initiative (Ozeco, 'initiative' coupled with 'truther' may be a malapropism), so it is in keeping with their minder's tactics. Maybe we should start a thread on the 'fraudulent' aspects of this petition?

 

[Mark F]

Good reponse to Tony's comment.

Ever noticed how some want to redirect away from the OP and the so called safety inititative. The petition is a scam because of how it is misrepresenting the true intent under the guise of "Safety"

It can't be about building safety if the people running the thing think it was CD. That people like Tony and (almost certainly Bob) don't get that is very telling.

Just another fund-raising scam to keep Gage on his vacation,... er, travel budget.

 

[Mark F]

What would be laughable is the above nonsense, that's if it wasn't such a pathetically ridiculous claim. Trying to invent what I think to try to entertain the "we" gang doesn't help make you sound genuine, trust me on this. At least you're creative, too bad you take your creativity in the wrong direction.

Anyway, I'm guilty of falling for the same tired old tactic of participating in your distraction of the topic of this thread, which is still:

9/11 Conspiracy Group Could Force Its Way Onto Ballot

It's much more interesting than you or me. This is a really good tactic in my opinion even though I'm not very optimistic as to success. There have been many different approaches to try to get a real investigation into 9/11 going. Hopefully, one of these will eventually succeed to some significant degree. I'm sure you can hardly wait, eh Mark?

You introduced the claim the media was forewarned by the plotters about the CD of building 7 ahead of time. If you didn't want to talk about that you should not have presented the claim. That you have refused to answer fundamental questions about your claim and I have had to chase you across multiple threads to attempt to get you to clarify your position ever since is ample evidence you should have never brought it up. No wonder you keep trying the change the subject and can do nothing more than hurl insults - the last refuge when one has nothing.

So Bob, why do you suppose the plotters felt compelled to reveal their secret plans to the whole media? You brought it up. Its your claim. Why can you not answer this very simple question?

 

[ozeco41]

It can't be about building safety if the people running the thing think it was CD. That people like Tony and (almost certainly Bob) don't get that is very telling.

I cannot say for Bob's scattering of multiple unrelated false assertions but it is SOP for Tony's claims. He at least tries to make a bit of argument. Usually to support evasion or derail but at least he tries.

That SOP of Tony's is "Make sure you get the starting premises/parameters/assumptions wrong.
a) I first identified it in a paper "Engineering Reality" in 2007,
b) a few years later "Missing Jolt" was a classic - and it fooled a lot of debunkers. The starting point of a "falling Top block" means that the opportunity for the big jolt has already gone - it has already not happened.
c) Same story for all the "axial contact of column end impacts" stuff which also fooled a lot of debunkers. It starts with tilt and "predicts" what will happen later. Not so! I you have "tilt" the tilt is caused by failed columns and the "ends" are already past each other. (Any one who wants to "Yes but" that go back, think, identify the three "Yes Buts" THEN work out why they are wrong so you can save yourself the effort of telling me and save me the effort of explaining. :doh )

(BTW All of them are sub-sets of "forests v trees" syndrome. )

So the idea that a Safety Initiative can result in stronger buildings to resist CD is....."a little bit naive" ... and that is independent of whether it is the President's minions who do the CD OR terrorists with something far heavier than a single passenger plane.

We really do need need a new term/word to replace "truther thinking".

Just another fund-raising scam to keep Gage on his vacation,... er, travel budget.

Yes...and zero signs of conscience from those who support the scam.

 

[Quag]

I cannot say for Bob's scattering of multiple unrelated false assertions but it is SOP for Tony's claims. He at least tries to make a bit of argument. Usually to support evasion or derail but at least he tries.

That SOP of Tony's is "Make sure you get the starting premises/parameters/assumptions wrong.
a) I first identified it in a paper "Engineering Reality" in 2007,
b) a few years later "Missing Jolt" was a classic - and it fooled a lot of debunkers. The starting point of a "falling Top block" means that the opportunity for the big jolt has already gone - it has already not happened.
c) Same story for all the "axial contact of column end impacts" stuff which also fooled a lot of debunkers. It starts with tilt and "predicts" what will happen later. Not so! I you have "tilt" the tilt is caused by failed columns and the "ends" are already past each other. (Any one who wants to "Yes but" that go back, think, identify the three "Yes Buts" THEN work out why they are wrong so you can save yourself the effort of telling me and save me the effort of explaining. :doh )

(BTW All of them are sub-sets of "forests v trees" syndrome. View attachment 67169459 )

So the idea that a Safety Initiative can result in stronger buildings to resist CD is....."a little bit naive" ... and that is independent of whether it is the President's minions who do the CD OR terrorists with something far heavier than a single passenger plane.

We really do need need a new term/word to replace "truther thinking".

Yes...and zero signs of conscience from those who support the scam.

Not just this particular scam but all 911 related scams.
Making money by lying about a horrible tragedy is despicable.

 

[Quag]

Thanks, I take it you have none.

Only truthers base their conclusions on their imagination. The rest of us look at evidence

 

[Bob0627]

So Bob, why do you suppose the plotters felt compelled to reveal their secret plans to the whole media? You brought it up. Its your claim.

Lying isn't going to help make you sound genuine either. You made that up, it's your claim that I posted that and you now want me to answer your straw man question. And even if the question was legitimate, why would you expect me to know the answer to such an idiotic question? Do you believe the "plotters" told me why? How ridiculous is that?

 

[Thoreau72]

If it weren't for the ridiculous, they would have nothing to post.

 

[Quag]

If it weren't for the ridiculous, they would have nothing to post.

Talking about truthers again HD

 

[mike2810]

Still no answer to my questions regarding building safety and unplanned CD.

Not suprised. The petition as written is misrepresenting the intent of "safety".

What if the petition passes. What if the safety investigation (funded by tax dollars, managed by the nyc govt) finds it was CD that took down the WTC7.

What possible buidling codes would needed to be pass to insure that no building in the future is destroyed by an unplanned CD?
If CD is the conclusion some are seeking as the cause of WTC7 collapse, then why a new investigion to establish the new codes needed to prevent unplanned CD?
If A&E need to know what support was taken out first under CD to come up with codes, they need to find a new line of work.:mrgreen:

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Still no answer to my questions regarding building safety and unplanned CD.

Not suprised. The petition as written is misrepresenting the intent of "safety".

What if the petition passes. What if the safety investigation (funded by tax dollars, managed by the nyc govt) finds it was CD that took down the WTC7.

What possible buidling codes would needed to be pass to insure that no building in the future is destroyed by an unplanned CD?
If CD is the conclusion some are seeking as the cause of WTC7 collapse, then why a new investigion to establish the new codes needed to prevent unplanned CD?
If A&E need to know what support was taken out first under CD to come up with codes, they need to find a new line of work.:mrgreen:

Mike, the reality is that we do not have a viable official explanation for the collapse of WTC 7, given the clear problem with the omitted structural features which invalidate the NIST WTC 7 report.

Thus a new investigation to determine the actual cause is necesary, and it is actually NYC that has jurisdiction and it is where it should be done.

 

[Mark F]

Mike, the reality is that we do not have a viable official explanation for the collapse of WTC 7, given the clear problem with the omitted structural features which invalidate the NIST WTC 7 report.

Thus a new investigation to determine the actual cause is necesary, and it is actually NYC that has jurisdiction and it is where it should be done.

So what?

Even if NIST was wrong about a detail that only means NIST was wrong about a detail. Even if you are correct about NIST's analysis (and you aren't but lets pretend) all you have done is nullify that specific NIST hypothesis. You have not proven CD. The collapse was still due to fire, only the specific point of initiation is in doubt.

No new investigation necessary. Nothing new to be found anyway as any new investigation has to work with the same evidence NIST had.

 

[Bob0627]

Bob here thinks the plotters issued press releases bragging about the whole thing right down to local TV affiliates.

You think if you repeat your lies ad nauseum it makes them true? Point to the post where I said any of that drivel liar. Your fakery gets more and more childish daily, are you that desperate?

 

[Bob0627]

You introduced the claim the media was forewarned by the plotters about the CD of building 7 ahead of time.

Lie after lie. You're the one who repeatedly made that lying claim and you repeat it daily. Twice today so far.

[follow up garbage ignored]

 

[Bob0627]

Even if NIST was wrong about a detail that only means NIST was wrong about a detail.

A lie in every post. NIST was NOT just wrong, NIST committed scientific fraud by deliberately omitting structural components and changed data to create a model they believed would show a fire induced collapse scenario they sold to the public as FACT.

Even if you are correct about NIST's analysis (and you aren't but lets pretend) all you have done is nullify that specific NIST hypothesis.

NIST's report was automatically nullified when its fraud was exposed. Therefore, no legitimate investigation into the collapse of WTC7 exists and therefore, there is an absolute requirement for a real investigation and that's what this project intends.

[additional non sequitur ignored]

 

[Mark F]

You think if you repeat your lies ad nauseum it makes them true? Point to the post where I said any of that drivel liar. Your fakery gets more and more childish daily, are you that desperate?

Selective amnesia is truly fascinating. How many examples do you need? I think I am limited to X number of links.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...-collapse-wtc7-9-11-a-150.html#post1063460255
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...-collapse-wtc7-9-11-a-151.html#post1063460939
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...-collapse-wtc7-9-11-a-152.html#post1063461168
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...-collapse-wtc7-9-11-a-153.html#post1063462157
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...ce-its-way-onto-ballot-13.html#post1063501370
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...ce-its-way-onto-ballot-13.html#post1063500882
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...ce-its-way-onto-ballot-13.html#post1063500620
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...ce-its-way-onto-ballot-14.html#post1063501784
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...ce-its-way-onto-ballot-15.html#post1063501978
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...ce-its-way-onto-ballot-15.html#post1063502044

This is a big one as you blame the firefighters and Larry Silverstein as being in on it.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...ce-its-way-onto-ballot-15.html#post1063502768
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...ce-its-way-onto-ballot-16.html#post1063503451

For two weeks now you have been going on about how the mainstream media were given foreknowledge of the CD of 7 WTC and for two weeks you have been ignoring, avoiding and derailing all attempts to get any further explanation of this claim.

My position in this is that the media reports (of which there are many more than you acknowledge) are from a combination of bad information in the chaos and confusion of the day (premature reports of actual collapse) and information gleaned from first responders at the scene who reported the buildings unstable state and that it was in danger of collapse. Firefighters with years of experience fighting fires in unstable buildings presumably have some ability to tell when a building is unstable and potentially dangerous. I don't think that is too much of a reach.

Your position has been that the media were not just warned in advance the building would be blown but even given a script and even a timetable and countdown as to the exact moment it was going to happen. This being preposterous on its face I have been trying for two weeks to get you to explain this position in more detail. Yu have ducked, dived and weaved around every single request - as usual.

It is difficult enough to believe that anyone would go to the bother of blowing up this unknown and unimportant ordinary office tower. It adds nothing to the plot while vastly increasing the risk to the plot being discovered.

It is difficult enough to imagine how it was done, given that (according to Tony) 24 columns on 8 floors would have had to be rigged with explosives to do the job as observed. That means tearing up hundreds of offices, elevators shafts and stairwells in a fully occupied and busy office building with thousands of people coming in and out every day and not one of them noticing.

All of that being implausible enough, now you have presented us with the idea that the evil plotters who managed all of the above decided they should reveal their top secret plans to the media. After all as we well know, the media can certainly keep a secret and the more of them know, the more secret it becomes. I've asked this many times before and you still have not answered so I will do it again - what possible purpose does it serve the plot to let the media know what the plan is? How is the plan kept secret if the whole MSM knows about it? The answer is fundamental to the validity of your accusation.

 

[Mark F]

A lie in every post. NIST was NOT just wrong, NIST committed scientific fraud by deliberately omitting structural components and changed data to create a model they believed would show a fire induced collapse scenario they sold to the public as FACT.



NIST's report was automatically nullified when its fraud was exposed. Therefore, no legitimate investigation into the collapse of WTC7 exists and therefore, there is an absolute requirement for a real investigation and that's what this project intends.

[additional non sequitur ignored]

NIST doesn't matter - but you are still wrong.

 

[Bob0627]

Selective amnesia is truly fascinating.

So many links yet not one single one about "PLOTTERS issuing press releases bragging about the whole thing right down to local TV affiliates" as you put it. In fact, one of your links points to this sentence that I posted:

Who alerted whom and when is unknown

Why do you need to lie? If you're going to paraphrase what I post, why is it important for you to distort it?

[follow up worthless garbage filled with made up lies ignored]

Back to the topic at hand:

9/11 Conspiracy Group Could Force Its Way Onto Ballot

 

[Bob0627]

NIST doesn't matter - but you are still wrong.

Despite your claim NIST matters to this topic. If NIST didn't matter, there would be no attempt to get a real investigation into WTC7 conducted and this topic would not exist so it's you who's wrong (as usual).

 

[Mark F]

So many links yet not one single one about "PLOTTERS issuing press releases bragging about the whole thing right down to local TV affiliates" as you put it. In fact, one of your links points to this sentence that I posted:

Why do you need to lie? If you're going to paraphrase what I post, why is it important for you to distort it?

[follow up worthless garbage filled with made up lies ignored]

Back to the topic at hand:

9/11 Conspiracy Group Could Force Its Way Onto Ballot

You have ignored all of my requests to make your claim less foggy and indeed still are ignoring them. Presumably if the media was notified in advance of the CD of 7 WTC they would have got a press release, or at least a memo of some kind, but you won't elaborate thus the hyperbole on my part. Trivial detail at any rate, which is of course why you have focused on it, allowing you to ignore truly relevant bits. If you think I am distorting what your claim is the problem is not me, it is you since you refuse to provide any detail or clarification even when asked repeatedly. So,...

You have presented us with the idea that the evil plotters who planned and executed the destruction of 7 WTC decided they should reveal their top secret plans to the media. I've asked this many times before and you still have not answered so I will do it again - what possible purpose does it serve the plot to let the media know what the plan is? How is the plan kept secret if the whole MSM knows about it? The answer is fundamental to the validity of your accusation.