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9/11 being an inside job

The US President makes a large number of appointments that control a large part of the US government, including Agency heads and Asministrative Law Judges, who have short terms of appointments. Federal Judges are for Life.

Was Clinton involved in the early stages of planning Thermite for the WTC?

Why are reuptable publications refusing to comprehensively discuss Thermite/Thermate?



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Boy that really responds to what I was saying, doesn't it.

Not to mention 9/11 allowed PNACers Cheney, Rumsfeld et al to proceed with prestated war plans as only a Pearl Harbor event could. Qui bono?

PNAC was practically Bill Kristol with a fax machine and two employees renting out office space from AEI, faxing Cheney and Rumsfeld policy ideas asking if they would support policy recommendations.

It's not that sinister, really. Kristol and a few others saw the potential threat that may occur and came up with a way to respond to the unipolar moment. Buy Present Dangers to understand it a bit more. Think of it like Robert Blackwill and Albert Carnesale's New Nuclear Nations. The difference was that PNAC said with some doubt that American foreign policy would shift directions short of some terrible event happening.

But I suppose stating the obvious truth makes one liable for allowing or creating the threat, doesn't it?
 
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Boy that really responds to what I was saying, doesn't it.



PNAC was practically Bill Kristol with a fax machine and two employees renting out office space from AEI, faxing Cheney and Rumsfeld policy ideas asking if they would support policy recommendations.

It's not that sinister, really. Kristol and a few others saw the potential threat that may occur and came up with a way to respond to the unipolar moment. Buy "Present Dangers" to understand it a bit more.


PNAC

Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who planted the Thermite/Termate at the WTC for 9-11? I see the Neocons trying to cover up the facts that indicate that Thermite/Thermate was used in WTC, 9-11.

The Neocon movement supporting War in Iraq also included Zionists and Anti-Palestinian Christians.




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PNAC

Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who planted the Thermite/Termate at the WTC for 9-11? I see the Neocons trying to cover up the facts that indicate that Thermite/Thermate was used in WTC, 9-11.

The Neocon movement supporting War in Iraq also included Zionists and Anti-Palestinian Christians.




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Oh lord. I know what PNAC is. I also know what AEI and the Heritage Foundation are.

I get it now.

You just like to link to stuff without really addressing the point. Previously I asked several times to ask where some Neocon conspiracy came from, and the efforts to deny the truth, given that Neocons are practically silent when it comes to 911 conspiracy theories in the first place. You don't really have any links to support the idea that there is some sort of Neocon overreach getting their hands dirty with 9/11 conspiracy or theories to deny thermite (I have yet to read a Neocon article or publicized work getting deep in the details of the attack, rather than the policy recommendations after the event), but it sounds good to group everyone as Neocons..because a minority in politics must be overblown to create the evil sinister aura.

"The Neocon movement supporting War in Iraq also included Zionists and Anti-Palestinian Christians."

So? This must be where you again throw in buzzwords and spooky pseudo-hate speech to try to make a point where you have none.
 
No, actually it is a well known fact. The temperature you quoted from wikipedia is the one at which jet fuel burns in an engine. Your article also states that jet fuel burns at much lower temperatures in open-air, uncontrolled fires.

Perhaps you should pay more attention. Website claims...

In perfect conditions the maximum temperature that can be reached by hydrocarbons such as jet fuel burning in air is 1520 F (825 C).

This is false. Furthermore, the website, if it had actually bothered to do any real research, would have found that other factors compounded the fire which consequently increased its maximum potential temperature.

Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

National Institute of Standards and Technology

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5.pdf

It may not be your cup of tea but I find voluminous amounts of data to be far more compelling than flash videos with spooky music.

Calm down. 5000 is obviously a typo, but 500 is compatible with the source.

It didn't say 5,000 C. It said 7,000 C. More importantly, when you're going to make claims that the United States Government was complicit in the worst terrorist attack in American history then you might want avoid typos if you wish to be taken seriously. It seems unlikely that anyone besides a rank amateur would have missed such a blatant error. Furthermore, the source data does not contradict the official version of 9/11, so your point is moot.

And yet...You have no trouble believing that 19 amateur pilot hijackers (some of whom are reported alive today) led by a cave dweller in Afghanistan (FBI admits no hard evidence links him to 9/11) were able to overcome a highly sophisticated defense system, perform miraculous flight maneuvers, and bring down 3 skyscrapers with 2 planes in defiance of the fundamental law of physics and the Law of Conservation of Momentum?

I believe everything except the emboldened portion of your rant, and I see you are not contesting the website's utter lack of credibility - wise choice. Also, the statement, "(FBI admits no hard evidence links him to 9/11)" is loaded as it somehow implies there is no direct or indirect evidence which links Bin Laden to 9/11.

There is a specific difference between hard evidence (fingerprints, DNA, video), direct evidence (confession), and indirect evidence (association). The lack of hard evidence does not negate the presence of direct and indirect evidence implicating Bin Laden in the 9/11 attacks.

Not to mention 9/11 allowed PNACers Cheney, Rumsfeld et al to proceed with prestated war plans as only a Pearl Harbor event could. Qui bono?

In the land of paranoia there is no such thing as coincidence.

You may be correct that I am wasting too much time on Thermite.

There seems to be disagreement on how hot the pockets of molten steel were in the rubble. You agree it was over the burning temperature of Fuel Oil,

How did the steel become molten?

"'Steel' with 0% Carbon) starts to melt at 1492 °C (2720 °F), and is completely liquid upon reaching 1539 °C (2802 °F). Steel with 2.1% Carbon by weight begins melting at 1130 °C (2066 °F), and is completely molten upon reaching 1315 °C (2400 °F). "

Structural steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Why are there large clouds of gray dust at explosion sites for the WTC? You say Plasterboard. I am not convinced. Thermite/Thermate makes that type of clouds.



How did some vertical structural steel beams come loose from supporting the exterior of the WTC towers? Instead of bending? Thermite/Thermate cuts beams loose.


What does it matter whether Thermite/Thermate was used or not? The reason that arouses my suspicions is because a lot of seemingly good intentioned people are speaking/writing/acting with emotional/Political/Religous fervor, refusing to fully discuss Thermite/Thermate for WTC, 9-11. Makes me wonder.

I just keep raising questions, and reading about Thermite/Thermate. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, on this thread. Through Debate, I deepen my understanding of real world and political issues.

If you are truly interested in finding answers to these questions then perhaps you should conduct some real research. Have you ever actually analyzed the prodigious amount of studies and data that pertains to 9/11 or do you merely take every conspiracy theorist's claim at face value? If you are actually interested in the truth then peruse this at length as you will surely find an answer to every question you have in regards to 9/11...

NIST and the World Trade Center
 
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1000 Degrees Kelvin is 1340 Degrees Fahrenheit.

What is misleading, is that fires are ordinarily on the surface of a pile of rubble, and are fed oxygen from the air on the surface.

The USGS survey gives the idea that the only fires, were fires on the surface, and that all fires could be monitored from infra-red Satelite imagry.

The indication of Thermite/Thermate, is that there were molten pools of steel burried some 3 to 10 feet in the rubble. Satelite photos and infra red photos would only give the surface temperature. The rubble on top of the Molten pools of steel, served as an insulator to keep the 4000 Degree F. Molten pools of steel warm.

Ordinarily, flames burn upward, and would burn firemen in the area. With Thermite/Thermate, no oxygen is needed, and the chemical reaction creates 25,000 degrees Fahrenheit, at the spot of the reaction.

The rubble acted as an insulator, and the 25,000 Degrees Fahrenheit did not reach the surface of most of the rubble. As Rubble was cleared away, some unburned thermite may have been caused to react, and create more heat, creating, or keeping pools, of molten steel at 4000 Degrees F., the temperature of Molten Steel.
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USGS gives this table as if this pertains to fires that realte to molten metal, which can be produced by Thermite/Thermate.

The approach of the Thermite Deniers has been to discredit the Temperature Facts. There seems to be no other explanation for finding molten steel in the rubble, other than Thermite/Thermate.


Table 1 Thermal Hot Spot Data
Location Temperature Area
Hot Spot N Latitude W Longitude (Kelvin) % FOV sq meter
A 40o 42' 47.18" 74o 00' 41.43" 1000.... 15 0.56
B 40o 42' 47.14" 74o 00' 43.53" 830..... 2 0.08
C 40o 42' 42.89" 74o 00' 48.88" 900..... 20 0.8
D 40o 42' 41.99" 74o 00' 46.94" 790.... 20 0.8
E 40o 42' 40.58" 74o 00' 50.15" 710.... 10 0.4
F 40o 42' 38.74" 74o 00' 46.70" 700.... 10 0.4
G 40o 42' 39.94" 74o 00' 45.37" 1020.... 1 0.04
H 40o 42' 38.60" 74o 00' 43.51" 820..... 2 0.08

[1000 Degrees Kelvin is 1340 Degrees Fahrenheit.]



Positions are in degrees-minutes-decimal seconds, datum WGS84.
Position accuracy is estimated to be approximately +/- 6 meters (18 feet).

USGS Spectroscopy Lab - World Trade Center USGS environmental assessment




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Oh lord. I know what PNAC is. I also know what AEI and the Heritage Foundation are.

I get it now.

You just like to link to stuff without really addressing the point. Previously I asked several times to ask where some Neocon conspiracy came from, and the efforts to deny the truth, given that Neocons are practically silent when it comes to 911 conspiracy theories in the first place. You don't really have any links to support the idea that there is some sort of Neocon overreach getting their hands dirty with 9/11 conspiracy or theories to deny thermite (I have yet to read a Neocon article or publicized work getting deep in the details of the attack, rather than the policy recommendations after the event), but it sounds good to group everyone as Neocons..because a minority in politics must be overblown to create the evil sinister aura.

"The Neocon movement supporting War in Iraq also included Zionists and Anti-Palestinian Christians."

So? This must be where you again throw in buzzwords and spooky pseudo-hate speech to try to make a point where you have none.

To make things less hateful, perhaps we can classify people into three groups. Thermite Deniers, Thermite Considerers, and Thermite Advocates.

I consider myself a Thermite Considerer.

Do you have a more constructive classification of opinions for this thread? I just used Neocons out of convenience, to mean Thermite Deniers. I don't really understand the details of the conspiracies that were played out. The broad outlines seem pretty clear.




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If you are actually interested in the truth then peruse this at length as you will surely find an answer to every question you have in regards to 9/11...


[NIST Final Report]
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5.pdf


NIST and the World Trade Center

I do not see any anlysis of evidence of Thermite/Termate. Do you have a section and page number for me? I just see an in depth analysis of the heated, weakened steel, and floor collapse theory. Seems like Thermite Denial to me. Not one word about Thermite/Thermate or shaped charges.

No attempt to explain molten steel found for 3 weeks after 9-11, in the rubble from WTC 1, 2 & 7.



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1000 Degrees Kelvin is 1340 Degrees Fahrenheit.

What is misleading, is that fires are ordinarily on the surface of a pile of rubble, and are fed oxygen from the air on the surface.

The USGS survey gives the idea that the only fires, were fires on the surface, and that all fires could be monitored from infra-red Satelite imagry.

The indication of Thermite/Thermate, is that there were molten pools of steel burried some 3 to 10 feet in the rubble. Satelite photos and infra red photos would only give the surface temperature. The rubble on top of the Molten pools of steel, served as an insulator to keep the 4000 Degree F. Molten pools of steel warm.

Ordinarily, flames burn upward, and would burn firemen in the area. With Thermite/Thermate, no oxygen is needed, and the chemical reaction creates 25,000 degrees Fahrenheit, at the spot of the reaction.

The rubble acted as an insulator, and the 25,000 Degrees Fahrenheit did not reach the surface of most of the rubble. As Rubble was cleared away, some unburned thermite may have been caused to react, and create more heat, creating, or keeping pools, of molten steel at 4000 Degrees F., the temperature of Molten Steel.
.


USGS gives this table as if this pertains to fires that realte to molten metal, which can be produced by Thermite/Thermate.

The approach of the Thermite Deniers has been to discredit the Temperature Facts. There seems to be no other explanation for finding molten steel in the rubble, other than Thermite/Thermate.


Table 1 Thermal Hot Spot Data
Location Temperature Area
Hot Spot N Latitude W Longitude (Kelvin) % FOV sq meter
A 40o 42' 47.18" 74o 00' 41.43" 1000.... 15 0.56
B 40o 42' 47.14" 74o 00' 43.53" 830..... 2 0.08
C 40o 42' 42.89" 74o 00' 48.88" 900..... 20 0.8
D 40o 42' 41.99" 74o 00' 46.94" 790.... 20 0.8
E 40o 42' 40.58" 74o 00' 50.15" 710.... 10 0.4
F 40o 42' 38.74" 74o 00' 46.70" 700.... 10 0.4
G 40o 42' 39.94" 74o 00' 45.37" 1020.... 1 0.04
H 40o 42' 38.60" 74o 00' 43.51" 820..... 2 0.08

[1000 Degrees Kelvin is 1340 Degrees Fahrenheit.]



Positions are in degrees-minutes-decimal seconds, datum WGS84.
Position accuracy is estimated to be approximately +/- 6 meters (18 feet).

USGS Spectroscopy Lab - World Trade Center USGS environmental assessment

Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories and Controlled Demolition Myths - Iron Burns!!!
 
To make things less hateful, perhaps we can classify people into three groups. Thermite Deniers, Thermite Considerers, and Thermite Advocates.

I consider myself a Thermite Considerer.

Do you have a more constructive classification of opinions for this thread? I just used Neocons out of convenience, to mean Thermite Deniers. I don't really understand the details of the conspiracies that were played out. The broad outlines seem pretty clear.




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Why would you use one political ideology to mean those who are "Thermite Deniers"? It becomes even sillier once far more than Neocons don't seem to buy into it?

I am not a man of science, but I do know Neoconservatism, and you are making absolutely no sense.
 
Why would you use one political ideology to mean those who are "Thermite Deniers"? It becomes even sillier once far more than Neocons don't seem to buy into it?

I am not a man of science, but I do know Neoconservatism, and you are making absolutely no sense.

So you believe that none of the Thermite Deniers have any interest in covering up Thermite at the WTC, which may have been planted by a small conspiracy, to enhance the effects of the airplanes hitting the WTC? Would the presence of Thermite at WTC mean that a small number of those interested in War with Iraq, may have planted the Thermite/Thermate? For those who support the War with Iraq, who understand that Thermite at WTC means that a few zealots, who also desired War with Iraq, probably planted the Thermite, would not intuitively know to cover up the Thermite?

You believe that since you read Neoconsrvative literature and publications, and find no mention of Thermite, that then it is NOT possible that a small group of zealots, supporting War with Iraq, planted Thermite/Thermate at WTC?

Your motives for vigorously denying Thermite was used for WTC 9-11, is not to cover up the possiblity that Thermite was used by zealots attempting to manipulate the US Public/Congress into supporting War with Iraq?

Those who know that the Myth/Logic supporting the War in Iraq, is the idea that WTC was brought down by Airplanes, would not inutitively know to discredit any ideas or facts that might indicate that factors other than Airplanes brought down the WTC towers on 9-11? So even those people who did not support War in Iraq, before 9-11, but who now support the War in Iraq, realize now that Thermite might undermine the myth/logic suporting War in Iraq?

TWA Flight 800 off Long Island in 1996, might have been shot down by a missle. There was mangled steel behind the cockpit, and the cockpit had separated from the plane at the start of the sequence leading to the fire, explosion and crash of TWA flight 800.

The Myth/Logic was that airplanes were safe to fly, and that no one would shoot down an airliner with a missle, and airliners had no reason to zig-zag, or be equipped with Anti Missle Heat arrays.

So the government officials, with the cooperation of the Airlines and the public, sought to discredit any info on Missles, relating to WA Flight 800. The conspiracy of Missle deniers was done intuitively, without publication of reasons to deny the Missle Theory. Top officials denied the missle theory vigorously, and most everyone followed suit.

TWA Flight 800

So I am unconvinced by the absensce of a discussion in Pro Iraq War articles and publications, which accepting your evaluation, that it is a good idea to deny Thermite at WTC on 9-11. Those instructions can effectively be transmitted by a few, or many, leaders giving vigorous denials to the facts supporting the presence of Thermite at WTC on 9-11.

I should probably expect that facts that undermine an important Myth/Logic for the US Congress/Public would not be popular. I just feel foolish myself, for having bought into the heated steel, collapsing floor theory, as I have advocated in earlier posts on this thread, and on other DP threads. So part of my diligence is looking at evidence or facts supporting Thermite, is a rebuttal of my own Naivete.

I should probably appologise for the rage my posts might create, in detracting from an important US Myth/Logic supporting War in Iraq. I am not sure I am the only one who should appologise.


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"In other words, Sulfur Dioxide gas (e.g., from decomposing Gypsum wallboard) spontaneously reacts (combines) with iron metal (cold or hot), turning it into iron sulfides and iron oxides (i.e. burning the iron). The sulfides introduced into iron (sulfidation) by exposure of iron to Sulfur Dioxide gas have been used by humans (blacksmiths) for hundreds if not thousands of years, and have been understood in chemical terms for centuries, but apparently, such chemistry is not understood by BYU Professor Jones.
"The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached ~1000°C by a process similar to making a “blacksmith’s weld” in a hand forge. (Barnett, 2001)"
For hundreds of years, Blacksmiths took advantage of this well-known property of sulfur dioxide by "welding" iron parts together over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron at its surface.
Sulfur Dioxide gas can be released by the burning of ANY ORGANIC substance, including wood, paper, flesh, fabrics, and especially plastics (carpets), and rubber (rubber is "vulcanized" by adding sulfur to it). Sulfur Dioxide gas, has a distinct impact on the nose, and is a respiratory irritant, because it forms sulfurous acid when it combines with water or moisture in the human body. Sulfur Dioxide can be further oxidized to form sulfuric acid (when added to water). High concentrations of Sulfurous fumes emanating from the piles at Ground Zero have been documented, and have been identified as a probable cause of respiratory ailments suffered by many rescue workers and cleanup crews. "One of the America's top air-quality scientists test the air around Ground Zero and tells NBC's Lisa Myers and the NBC Investigative Team he was shocked to find alarming levels of sulfuric acid and fine particles more than three weeks after the attack. (MSNBC, October 29, 2003)" AsthmaMoms World Trade Center: Environmental Health Articles

Professor Jones demonstrates his ignorance of the basic "Blacksmith" chemistry of sulfidation-by-S02-from-fire with his following oblivious or dishonest statements: "Then there is the rather mysterious sulfidation of the steel reported in this paper -- What is the origin of this sulfur? No solid answer is given in any of the official reports. ... While gypsum in the buildings is a source of sulfur, it is highly unlikely that this sulfur could find its way into the structural steel in such a way as to form a eutectic. ... Thus, we find substantial evidence supporting the current conjecture that some variation of thermite (e.g., solid aluminum powder plus Fe2O3, with possible addition of sulfur) was used on the steel columns of the WTC Tower to weaken the huge steel supports, not long before explosives finished the demolition job."

In addition to sulfidation of cold iron by its exposure to sulfurous (e.g., SO2) fumes, sulfidation by an even more direct transfer of the sulfur and oxygen from Gypsum to Iron might occur where Gypsum (dust) is in direct contact with the burning (e.g., red hot) iron.

Another's lucid rebuttal of Professor Jones' conjectures about the sulfidated iron found in the burning piles of WTC wreckage is self-published as follows:
"The "absolutely conclusive smoking-gun PROOF" amounts to this: Prof. Jones CLAIMS to have obtained a sample of solidified spatter from post-collapse WTC structural steel. He takes the sample-gatherer's word that this is where it came from. He claims to have determined the sample to be sulfur-contaminated iron. Solely from this basis he leaps to the definite conclusion that it's a residue of thermate (thermite with sulfur and potassium permanganate additives) used to cut the tower's columns. This is quite the leap of inductive reasoning. As we all know, the debris field of the WTC was an oven of steel-melting intensity. All of the WTC's debris was churned together chaotically in this pile. Steel is basically highly refined iron. The element sulfur is present in abundance in many building materials. Drywall, for example (also known as GYPSUM board) consists primarily of plaster, i.e. gypsum, i.e. hydrated calcium SULFATE. Churn lots of steel and gypsum together and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both and I would not be surprised to see "sulfur-contaminated iron" turning up in samples of same. This is not to say Jones is definitely wrong as to what produced it, just that it's ridiculously dishonest and irresponsible to hype this as "absolutely conclusive smoking-gun PROOF" of the use of thermate. There is at least one other completely plausible completely mundane possibility. Prof. Jones focuses on the iron/sulfur mix as a signature of thermate, but makes no mention of aluminum oxide, which would also most definitely be present and which he'd certainly test for and mention if it were. This is a strange omission. Prof. Jones knows better "
BYU Physics Prof Finds Thermate in WTC Physical Samples, Building Collapses an Inside Job : Indybay

For practical purposes, all this means that a huge pile of iron beams (e.g., mixed in with tons of other materials initially burning) can itself begin to burn like huge iron logs in a pile furnace, and there is no reason not to expect this system to reach a temperature high enough to melt iron. Sulfur Dioxide (SO2) gas, released from burning organic materials, and/or from decomposing Gypsum, in the burning piles will spontaneously combine (react) with cold or hot iron, adding more heat to the iron, and adding "sulfides" to the steel and thus lowering its effective melting temperature."



Jones had mentioned that some Steel from WTC had elevated Sulfer levels, which could indicate that Thermate, Thermite with Sulfer enhancer, was used. So the Thermite Denial answers provided in the article cited, argue the concept that the excess Sulfer Jones found in WTC 9-11 steel, could have come from other sources.

The tone of the answers seems to be intended to belittle and discredit Jones theories and facts supporting Thermite/Thermate used at WTC on 9-11-01.

The tone of the answers raises my suspicions of Thermite, and I find the answers both inflmatory, and unconvincing.



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PNAC

Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who planted the Thermite/Termate at the WTC for 9-11? I see the Neocons trying to cover up the facts that indicate that Thermite/Thermate was used in WTC, 9-11.

The Neocon movement supporting War in Iraq also included Zionists and Anti-Palestinian Christians.




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There is a thread under General Politcal Disussions thsat discusses the US Congress and the Brittish reveising the causes leading ujp to the attack on Iraq in 2003. AS Guardian invetigative article is cited.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/50772-confidential-memo-re-iraq.html




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