400 lb. Mike Moore on the Comedy Show

[ALiberalModerate]

Hint: None of them have passed any meaninful reform that cannot be circumvented.

Well, Texas saw an 80% reduction in malpractice suits, yet healthcare costs increased at the same rate there as it did nationally. I am not saying that reasonable tort reform measures are a bad idea, I am just saying that it will do little to curb healthcare costs.

 

[TOJ]

Well, Texas saw an 80% reduction in malpractice suits, yet healthcare costs increased at the same rate there as it did nationally. I am not saying that reasonable tort reform measures are a bad idea, I am just saying that it will do little to curb healthcare costs.

So you don't think $300,000/yr for mal-practice insurance for an OB/GYN makes a difference in the cost for them to treat women and deliver babies. That's very interesting. I bet some doctors I work with would love you to explain how that works.

And its not the insurance companies holding their prices up. Many insurance companies have dropped out of mal-practice all together and even more will no longer write for OB/GYN and some other specialities. If they were making money on it, they would not be dropping the lines.

If you want a perfect example of the problem, look at Edwards. He got super rich sueing OB doctors and that money came from the healthcare system.

The best thing the US could do is declare open season on lawyers and even put a bounty on the trial lawyers.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

So you don't think $300,000/yr for mal-practice insurance for an OB/GYN makes a difference in the cost for them to treat women and deliver babies. That's very interesting. I bet some doctors I work with would love you to explain how that works.

And its not the insurance companies holding their prices up. Many insurance companies have dropped out of mal-practice all together and even more will no longer write for OB/GYN and some other specialities. If they were making money on it, they would not be dropping the lines.

If you want a perfect example of the problem, look at Edwards. He got super rich sueing OB doctors and that money came from the healthcare system.

The best thing the US could do is declare open season on lawyers and even put a bounty on the trial lawyers.

And thats all fine, but the 80% reduction in the number of malpractice suits did not reduce the cost of healthcare in Texas, nor curb its inflation.

 

[TOJ]

And thats all fine, but the 80% reduction in the number of malpractice suits did not reduce the cost of healthcare in Texas, nor curb its inflation.

I would like to see the proof of that. It might make me change my mind about lawyers. :roll:

You say TX implemented tort reform and, while the number of suits declined, healthcare prices did not. Specifically what costs/prices/etc were in the study(ies) you are using as a basis for your arguments? Do you have a link?

I would bet the raw data would suggest something entirely different. Simply reducing the number of suits, while helpful, does not, in and of itself, make much difference in the costs. Did mal-practice insurance for OB/GYN docs drop significantly?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

I would like to see the proof of that. It might make me change my mind about lawyers. :roll:

You say TX implemented tort reform and, while the number of suits declined, healthcare prices did not. Specifically what costs/prices/etc were in the study(ies) you are using as a basis for your arguments? Do you have a link?

I would bet the raw data would suggest something entirely different. Simply reducing the number of suits, while helpful, does not, in and of itself, make much difference in the costs. Did mal-practice insurance for OB/GYN docs drop significantly?

The Impact of Tort Reform on Private Insurance Coverage.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=995270

Read the study, you will find that Tort Reform reduces healthcare costs by a maximum of just 2%.

From the abstract:

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]However, the evidence suggests that limitations on punitive and non-economic damages do not affect private insurance coverage, while caps on total damages, collateral source reform, and reforms to liability and payment structure are associated with increased private insurance coverage for price-sensitive groups. Accordingly, we conclude that some tort reforms are effective in reducing healthcare costs. The magnitude of the effects on price sensitive groups suggests that some tort reforms can reduce health care costs by as much as two percent.[/FONT]

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]

So instead of having 80k in healthcare costs for cancer treatments, you would have about 78.4k in healthcare costs for cancer treatments. Big savings huh...

Necessary healthcare does not adhere to the traditional laws of supply and demand. The Malpractice Premium for an obstetrician may well decline as a result of tort reform, but they don't compete with their peers on price for services, thus essentially it would amount to a raise for them, rather than much in the way of cost cuts. After all, if your wife is pregnant, your going to pay for their services regardless of what the cost is, its not as though their raising their costs by 10% a year is going to prompt you to just tell your wife she is having the baby at home. That is the problem with necessary healthcare, demand has no relationship with supply or costs.
[/FONT]

 

[TOJ]

The Impact of Tort Reform on Private Insurance Coverage.

SSRN-Impact of Tort Reform on Private Health Insurance Coverage by Ronen Avraham, Max Schanzenbach

Read the study, you will find that Tort Reform reduces healthcare costs by a maximum of just 2%.

From the abstract:

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]

So instead of having 80k in healthcare costs for cancer treatments, you would have about 78.4k in healthcare costs for cancer treatments. Big savings huh...

Necessary healthcare does not adhere to the traditional laws of supply and demand. The Malpractice Premium for an obstetrician may well decline as a result of tort reform, but they don't compete with their peers on price for services, thus essentially it would amount to a raise for them, rather than much in the way of cost cuts. After all, if your wife is pregnant, your going to pay for their services regardless of what the cost is, its not as though their raising their costs by 10% a year is going to prompt you to just tell your wife she is having the baby at home. That is the problem with necessary healthcare, demand has no relationship with supply or costs.
[/FONT]

Interesting. A study on tort reform by a law school. Couldn't possibly be any bias there? :roll:

I'll read it but had hoped you had an objective source.

I have to get a presentation ready for tomorrow so I'll have to get back to you later.

 

[BWG]

From the Congressional Budget Office (CBO):

A 2003 study that examined state data from 1993 to 2002 found that two restrictions--a cap on noneconomic damages and a ban on punitive damages--would together reduce premiums by more than one-third (all other things being equal). And based on its own research on the effects of tort restrictions, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that the provisions of the Help Efficient, Accessible, Low-cost, Timely Healthcare (HEALTH) Act of 2003 (H.R. 5) would lower premiums nationwide by an average of 25 percent to 30 percent from the levels likely to occur under current law.

Savings of that magnitude would not have a significant impact on total health care costs, however. Malpractice costs amounted to an estimated $24 billion in 2002, but that figure represents less than 2 percent of overall health care spending. Thus, even a reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower health care costs by only about 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent, and the likely effect on health insurance premiums would be comparably small.

On 'defensive medicine':

Proponents of limiting malpractice liability have argued that much greater savings in health care costs would be possible through reductions in the practice of defensive medicine. However, some so-called defensive medicine may be motivated less by liability concerns than by the income it generates for physicians or by the positive (albeit small) benefits to patients. On the basis of existing studies and its own research, CBO believes that savings from reducing defensive medicine would be very small.

On forcing Doctors to retire or leave medicine:

Some observers argue that high malpractice premiums are causing physicians to restrict their practices or retire, leading to a crisis in the availability of certain health care services in a growing number of areas. GAO investigated the situations in five states with reported access problems and found mixed evidence. On the one hand, GAO confirmed instances of reduced access to emergency surgery and newborn delivery, albeit "in scattered, often rural, areas where providers identified other long-standing factors that affect the availability of services." On the other hand, it found that many reported reductions in supply by health care providers could not be substantiated or "did not widely affect access to health care."

Finally:

In short, the evidence available to date does not make a strong case that restricting malpractice liability would have a significant effect, either positive or negative, on economic efficiency.

CBO

How about some quotes from people who should know:

Tort reform will not lower rates. (Casper Star Tribune, May 4, 2003)

“Tort reform does not provide a magical ‘silver-bullet’ that will immediately affect medical malpractice insurance rates.” (Medical Assurance Co. of Mississippi, September 2002)

“The insurance industry never promised that tort reform would achieve specific premium savings.” (American Insurance Association Press Release, March 13, 2002)

How about the leaders for tort reform:

“We wouldn’t tell you or anyone that the reason to pass tort reform would be to reduce insurance rates.” (Liability Week, July 19, 1999)

“Many tort reform advocates do not contend that restricting litigation will lower insurance rates, and ‘I’ve never said that in 30 years.’” (Business Insurance, July 19, 1999)

 

[Onine]

This thread did not need to be created and I request it be deleted even though I know it will not be. There is already a thread like this, and by posting another one, you are clearly avoiding the responses to the other thread. I'm not going to waste my time but I did think you were worthy of looking stupid and foolish. That's all I am going to say. If you want to see my response then get off your lazy *** and read the other thread just like this one of which you are desperately trying to avoid.

 

[Saboteur]

This thread did not need to be created and I request it be deleted even though I know it will not be. There is already a thread like this, and by posting another one, you are clearly avoiding the responses to the other thread. I'm not going to waste my time but I did think you were worthy of looking stupid and foolish. That's all I am going to say. If you want to see my response then get off your lazy *** and read the other thread just like this one of which you are desperately trying to avoid.

I think this thread started before the other one.

 

[Saboteur]

Michael Moore was on Hardball last night and brought up some good points.

1. Universal Healthcare should be called Christianized Healthcare because Jesus said we have a responsibilty to care for the sick, in fact all faiths say that.

2. Jonas Salk didn't develope the vaccine for polio to make a money, he did it to help society. When Salk was asked if he was going to patent the vaccine he replied "would I patent the sun?".

3. The U.S. military has socialized medicine, shouldn't it be privatized? What about our elected officials? Why should they get Universal Healthcare and not the 47 million uninsured?

 

[wonder cow]

Why should they get Universal Healthcare

They have health insurance.

I'm all for helping people. But let's not get carried away. If people like Moore get what they want we will all pay **** load more in taxes to pay for socialized medicine.

Frankly, I say screw it if it comes down to that.

Selfish? Maybe. But irrelevant.

 

[Middleground]

They have health insurance.

I'm all for helping people. But let's not get carried away. If people like Moore get what they want we will all pay **** load more in taxes to pay for socialized medicine.

Frankly, I say screw it if it comes down to that.

Selfish? Maybe. But irrelevant.

Middleground form Canada, eh.

Yup, I pay a lot of taxes. I also own my own house, car and can afford to travel.

I also benefit from a healthcare system that will treat me no matter what the ailment. A healthcare system that ranks much higher that yours in most categories.

Bottom line is this... your healthcare system rates far below industrialized countries that have universal healthcare. Does that not tell you something?

 

[BWG]

Two things that stand out when comparing U.S. health care vs. other industrialized nations with Universal Health Care:

Nearly 47 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

They have health insurance.

I'm all for helping people. But let's not get carried away. If people like Moore get what they want we will all pay **** load more in taxes to pay for socialized medicine.

Frankly, I say screw it if it comes down to that.

Selfish? Maybe. But irrelevant.

Ok, I will be devils advocate here then. Figure your federal income and provincial taxes in Canada for your income level here. Then figure your income and state income taxes here, and add in the costs of your health insurance, both your portion and your employers. Then see which one comes out lower. I did it, and even with the higher taxes, its still cheaper than the taxes plus insurance costs here.

 

[TOJ]

OK, so I finally had time to read the study on tort reform by the law school and my assumptions were correct; it was more about derailing tort reform for the trial lawyers then about the true effect on healthcare. I am not surprised though since distorting the truth is the definition of what lawyers do.

And as far as CBO's musing on the subject, you have to be kidding.

Michael Moore was on Hardball last night and brought up some good points.

Who gives a crap about what this big fat POS says?

1. Universal Healthcare should be called Christianized Healthcare because Jesus said we have a responsibilty to care for the sick, in fact all faiths say that.

Call it whatever you like. It's still a stupid idea.

2. Jonas Salk didn't develope the vaccine for polio to make a money, he did it to help society. When Salk was asked if he was going to patent the vaccine he replied "would I patent the sun?".

So, what's your point. He was not commenting on the govenment running the healthcare system.

3. The U.S. military has socialized medicine, shouldn't it be privatized? What about our elected officials? Why should they get Universal Healthcare and not the 47 million uninsured?

Sweetie, you are showing your hate for the military again.

 

[TOJ]

Y'all know it does not matter if government run healthcare is a good idea or not. It will never happen for the same reason that the tax system will never be radically altered. Those with vested interests in the current system have way more incentive to keep it then those who might see some benefit from changing.

The tax preparers, lawyers, accountants, etc will fight tooth and nail to make sure their gravy train stays on track. Likewise, the lawyers, insurance companies, phamas, etc will never allow the healthcare system to be changed.

I work with doctors all over the country and it is not unusual for us to get into a conversation about the healthcare system. Most initially say they favor universal healthcare. Then you ask them if they want all their patients to be covered by CMS or if they are willing to be employed direclty by the govenment run healthcare system. They start backing up so fast you better not be standing behind them.

The company I work for would benefit greatly from nationalized healthcare. The system we sell for $15,000-$20,000 per unit to private hospials goes for $60,000-$70,000 to the VA and DOD hospitals. There are significant increased costs (such as getting congressional help) selling to them but once those items are in place you have a virtual monopoly.

Who really believes that a govenment made up of lawyers will ever do anything to hurt the trial lawyers? Mal-practice is big busines for the trail lawyers and, if the govenment took over the system, it would be harder to keep that racket going.

I'm sure the folks represented on DP are much more politically active then the average citizen. Aside from bitching about the healthcare system here, what have you really done that might change it?

Personally I think it is a really stupid idea but doubt it will ever happening. If it does, I will probably get bonuses and a big raise.

 

[wonder cow]

I also own my own house, car and can afford to travel.

Congratulations.

your healthcare system rates far below industrialized countries that have universal healthcare.

In terms of what, exactly? The US has the top medical facilities in the world.

Does that not tell you something?

Should it? Some see full medical coverage as a basic right. I don’t.

I did it, and even with the higher taxes, its still cheaper than the taxes plus insurance costs here.

Military Budget for Canada 10.9 Billion (2005 figures)
Military Budget for the US 420.7 Billion

 

[Saboteur]

Who gives a crap about what this big fat POS says?

Who gives a crap about what bitchy hawaiians have to say?

Call it whatever you like. It's still a stupid idea.

I don't think so.

So, what's your point. He was not commenting on the govenment running the healthcare system.

Right he was just debunking the whole 'there won't be any incentive to develope new drugs and equipment once profit is taken away' argument.

Sweetie, you are showing your hate for the military again.

I never said I hate the military. But plenty of people who have no real argument sure use that against me for lack of something better...:roll:

Actually I thought it was ironic when Moore asked the afore mentioned question of someone like you, a young, egotistical idividualist, (I had made the same argument here) her answer was the same as his... Socialised medicine is something the military should have. And I agree, even though I did mention that today's soldier should have to get their own insurance and forage for their own food like they did in the civil war. That was just to make a point though.

 

[Saboteur]

Y'all know it does not matter if government run healthcare is a good idea or not. It will never happen for the same reason that the tax system will never be radically altered. Those with vested interests in the current system have way more incentive to keep it then those who might see some benefit from changing.

i think you are in for a big surprise.:lol:

The tax preparers, lawyers, accountants, etc will fight tooth and nail to make sure their gravy train stays on track. Likewise, the lawyers, insurance companies, phamas, etc will never allow the healthcare system to be changed.

Hopefully the next president will start by not letting these people buy off politicians.

I work with doctors all over the country and it is not unusual for us to get into a conversation about the healthcare system. Most initially say they favor universal healthcare. Then you ask them if they want all their patients to be covered by CMS or if they are willing to be employed direclty by the govenment run healthcare system. They start backing up so fast you better not be standing behind them.

Is that before or after you bribe the doctors to perscribe medications that are new and don't have a generic yet, even though they're no better than the old stand by drug?

The company I work for would benefit greatly from nationalized healthcare. The system we sell for $15,000-$20,000 per unit to private hospials goes for $60,000-$70,000 to the VA and DOD hospitals. There are significant increased costs (such as getting congressional help) selling to them but once those items are in place you have a virtual monopoly.

Thanks for admitting that you are well versed in ripping off the tax payers. I'm still waiting for that $392.00.

Who really believes that a govenment made up of lawyers will ever do anything to hurt the trial lawyers? Mal-practice is big busines for the trail lawyers and, if the govenment took over the system, it would be harder to keep that racket going.

Oh I dunno, maybe this country is fed up with rackets.

I'm sure the folks represented on DP are much more politically active then the average citizen. Aside from bitching about the healthcare system here, what have you really done that might change it?

Well, when I vote, I vote for bills that I want passed and representatives that have policies that I like. You on the other hand, from what you've told me here, are in the demographic of people who don't vote. So what are you even doing here besides just disagreeing to disagree?

Personally I think it is a really stupid idea but doubt it will ever happening. If it does, I will probably get bonuses and a big raise.

Actually you'll probably get down sized. But don't worry, even though you'll be unemployed you'll still be able to go to the doctor.

 

[TOJ]

Hopefully the next president will start by not letting these people buy off politicians.

It's a shame they let folks this naive in the voting booth.

Is that before or after you bribe the doctors to perscribe medications that are new and don't have a generic yet, even though they're no better than the old stand by drug?

I don't have anything to do with the pharmas so this is just stupid.

Thanks for admitting that you are well versed in ripping off the tax payers. I'm still waiting for that $392.00.

I'm not ripping anyone off. My company plays by the rules the Feds put in place. It's just typical for government programs.

Oh I dunno, maybe this country is fed up with rackets.

Not enough to do anything about it.

Well, when I vote, I vote for bills that I want passed and representatives that have policies that I like. You on the other hand, from what you've told me here, are in the demographic of people who don't vote. So what are you even doing here besides just disagreeing to disagree?

I didn't know you were in a legislature. I'm not so I don't get to vote on bills. I do vote and I vote for those that will work for a more limited goverrnment. I've still not heard you say what govenment program you think is well run. Maybe you like the service you get from the DMV or the USPS.

Actually you'll probably get down sized. But don't worry, even though you'll be unemployed you'll still be able to go to the doctor.

You can always hope, but me getting downsized is not a possibility.

You are right about the unemployed being able to get medical care. I recently helped a lady without insurance get on a subsidized program to get her BP meds. Her perscription costs her a $15 copay for a perscription that normally costs almost $400. The remainder is payed by one of those evil drug makers.

If you know someone who is having trouble getting medical care or the medications they need and you are not helping them, shame on you. Guess you are too busy bitching about how someone else should pay for your healthcare.

 

[Saboteur]

It's a shame they let folks this naive in the voting booth.

It's scary that people like you even exist.

I don't have anything to do with the pharmas so this is just stupid.

Whatever, you're still a sleaze ball.

I'm not ripping anyone off. My company plays by the rules the Feds put in place. It's just typical for government programs.

Sure, I'll bet charging the gov. more because it's the gov. couldn't be changed in any way.

Not enough to do anything about it.

I hate people who don't know enough about politics and go on political web sites to spread their sh!tty opinion then mae themselves look like fools because they keep contradicting themselves.

I didn't know you were in a legislature. I'm not so I don't get to vote on bills. I do vote and I vote for those that will work for a more limited goverrnment. I've still not heard you say what govenment program you think is well run. Maybe you like the service you get from the DMV or the USPS.

I'm not involved in legislature, but some bills go up for public vote. The post office is pretty good at getting lots of work done quickly. But lemme' guess you're one of those idiots p!ssed about the postage stamp price hike aren't you?

Also most people went to public school. I suppose you didn't though, you must have done it all by yourself huh? Dizzy bitch.

You can always hope, but me getting downsized is not a possibility.

I know you're type, I work in an office tower filled with young women who scored an office job after college and think they're the next best thing. Trotting around in their pointy pumps and boob shirts not realizing that they look exactly the same as the ditz next to them. They don't get it because they're too busy walking around with their nose in the air thinking they're going to bag an exec and never have to work again. Meanwhile I have the wonderful job of holding their hand while they fill out a self explanitory shipping document or fixing their communication error by redelivering their packages because they told the sender to ship thier product to the wrong address. But mostly I get to make sure their last minute shipments get out because if I don't, it'll expose their incompetence and they'll whine about it to my supervisor. But he never chews me out because he knows that these dumb little 20 somethings are just trying to avoid taking responsability for work they should have had finished sooner, he just doesn't want to get the phone call. Plus I've been around long enough to know that there's no such thing as job security. Unless you're sucking the bosses d!ck, is that what you do baby? I don't see how losing you're job isn't a possibility otherwise.

You are right about the unemployed being able to get medical care. I recently helped a lady without insurance get on a subsidized program to get her BP meds. Her perscription costs her a $15 copay for a perscription that normally costs almost $400. The remainder is payed by one of those evil drug makers

.

Yeah, the drug companies are evil. I used to clean temp housing in CO. One of the clients was the VP of Amgen Pharmacuticals his last day in the house he threw a huge party, no big deal but the bag of marajuana I found in the mess said a lot about him and his co. I'll bet he's greasing some politician's palm right now to keep his 'party favors' illegal so his business doesn't suffer.

If you know someone who is having trouble getting medical care or the medications they need and you are not helping them, shame on you. Guess you are too busy bitching about how someone else should pay for your healthcare.

So you were bragging about helping someone and now you're going back to the same useless argument?

I'm done with you TOJ, congrats you're first on my ignore list.:2wave:

 

[TOJ]

It's scary that people like you even exist.

:yawn:

Whatever, you're still a sleaze ball.

Well damn Sweetie, I sure hate it that you are so upset. Don't you want to kiss and make up?

Sure, I'll bet charging the gov. more because it's the gov. couldn't be changed in any way.

Not up to me. If you are on the approved bid list and have the lowest bid you get the business.

If you want to change the way it works, you could send a letter to your Congressmen. I'm sure you can make a big difference.

I hate people who don't know enough about politics and go on political web sites to spread their sh!tty opinion then mae themselves look like fools because they keep contradicting themselves.

Oh Sweetie, you shouldn't hate yourself, You can't help it. Self hatred is so distructive. You need to do something to boast your self-esteem. I bet if you payed for your own healthcare it would really help your confidence.

I'm not involved in legislature, but some bills go up for public vote.

Are those state or federal bills? I have voted in referendums but never on an actual bill.

The post office is pretty good at getting lots of work done quickly. But lemme' guess you're one of those idiots p!ssed about the postage stamp price hike aren't you?

Yeah, the USPS is so efficient and well run they have to have a monopoly to stay in business.

Also most people went to public school.

Are you seriously putting forth the public school system as an example of a well run govenment system? Now that is a hoot.

I suppose you didn't though, you must have done it all by yourself huh? Dizzy bitch.

Oh Sweetie, you shouldn't start calling folks nasty names. It's just not nice. Didn't your moma tell you?

I know you're type, I work in an office tower filled with young women who scored an office job after college and think they're the next best thing. Trotting around in their pointy pumps and boob shirts not realizing that they look exactly the same as the ditz next to them. They don't get it because they're too busy walking around with their nose in the air thinking they're going to bag an exec and never have to work again. Meanwhile I have the wonderful job of holding their hand while they fill out a self explanitory shipping document or fixing their communication error by redelivering their packages because they told the sender to ship thier product to the wrong address. But mostly I get to make sure their last minute shipments get out because if I don't, it'll expose their incompetence and they'll whine about it to my supervisor. But he never chews me out because he knows that these dumb little 20 somethings are just trying to avoid taking responsability for work they should have had finished sooner, he just doesn't want to get the phone call. Plus I've been around long enough to know that there's no such thing as job security.

My, my, my. So bitter. It must be really hard for such a smart person as yourself to be humiliated by those young dimwit bimbos.

Unless you're sucking the bosses d!ck, is that what you do baby? I don't see how losing you're job isn't a possibility otherwise.

Maybe you should try it. It's probably the only way you will ever get ahead. :tongue4:

In my case, the boss seldom gets downsized unless the company goes down and my company is doing quite well, thank you. :lol:

Yeah, the drug companies are evil. I used to clean temp housing in CO. One of the clients was the VP of Amgen Pharmacuticals his last day in the house he threw a huge party, no big deal but the bag of marajuana I found in the mess said a lot about him and his co. I'll bet he's greasing some politician's palm right now to keep his 'party favors' illegal so his business doesn't suffer.

Maybe if you had kissed him the right way, he would have put you in charge of party favors.

So you were bragging about helping someone and now you're going back to the same useless argument?

Just pointing out that it is possible to help people instead of just shouting about how the government should steal from others to pay your expenses.

I'm done with you TOJ, congrats you're first on my ignore list.:2wave:

I'm so honored. Mission accomplished. :2wave:

 

[Saboteur]

Well damn Sweetie, I sure hate it that you are so upset. Don't you want to kiss and make up?

Not really.

If you want to change the way it works, you could send a letter to your Congressmen. I'm sure you can make a big difference.

Trying is better than just giving up.

Oh Sweetie, you shouldn't hate yourself, You can't help it. Self hatred is so distructive. You need to do something to boast your self-esteem. I bet if you payed for your own healthcare it would really help your confidence.

See, this is why I don't like you. I don't know how many times I've said that I do pay for my own healthcare. If you want to talk about this and get respect from me how about you actually read my posts.

Are those state or federal bills? I have voted in referendums but never on an actual bill.

Well, they're state bills, I voted to raise property taxes in MN in '04 so schools could get more money. It passed because a lot of other people voted for it too. Get it? Probably not.:roll:

Yeah, the USPS is so efficient and well run they have to have a monopoly to stay in business.

Hey, they do a great job of getting local mail out overnight and state to state in a couple of days, been like that for years too. And they don't have a monopoly, there's FEDEX and UPS and DHL. Not mention fax machines and email. They stay in business because people still use their service, duh.

Are you seriously putting forth the public school system as an example of a well run govenment system? Now that is a hoot.

Well, they taught you to read and write and do math. They gave you the opportunity to learn about art, politics, music and science. Are you saying that you didn't benefit from your schooling? Well then, it shows.

Oh Sweetie, you shouldn't start calling folks nasty names. It's just not nice. Didn't your moma tell you?

I only respect folks who return it. You're just a stupid kid who has a problem with keeping their lies straight.

My, my, my. So bitter. It must be really hard for such a smart person as yourself to be humiliated by those young dimwit bimbos.

I actually tested out of a lot of classes, dizzy bitches like you do not humiliate me, they p!ss me off. But you wouldn't get that just like you don't get how you're going to turn into the fat old lady you don't understand in the cubicle next to you.:2razz:

Maybe you should try it. It's probably the only way you will ever get ahead. :tongue4:

I knew it.

In my case, the boss seldom gets downsized unless the company goes down and my company is doing quite well, thank you. :lol:

BullSh!t! You've just opened a big hole in your cred. You've told me that you're 24 and the kind of business you claim to be in doesn't just get started by a 24 year old. Plus, I thought you'd "probably get a raise and a bonus" if UHC happened. That sounds like someone would have to decide that for you. Also you mentioned before that you had a presentation, bosses don't give presentations they hear them. LIAR LIAR LIAR!

Maybe if you had kissed him the right way, he would have put you in charge of party favors.

Never met the guy, BTW lame try at making me out to be gay.

Just pointing out that it is possible to help people instead of just shouting about how the government should steal from others to pay your expenses.

Well if you weren't so stupid and actually read my posts you'd find out I help people all the time. I like doing it and paying for your own healthcare through taxes is not stealing and that childish argument is so fu<king lame it just proves that you aren't who you say you are!

I'm so honored. Mission accomplished. :2wave:

Aww fu<k it one of those guys that has to have the last word. So now maybe I'll stalk you and subscribe to your user name instead so I can go around proving what a stupid LIAR you are every time you post!

 

[TOJ]

Not really.

Well damn, I was hoping you were willing to give it another try.

Trying is better than just giving up.

So keep trying.

See, this is why I don't like you. I don't know how many times I've said that I do pay for my own healthcare. If you want to talk about this and get respect from me how about you actually read my posts.

Maybe you do pay for your own way now but your posts show you would like someone else to foot the bill.

Well, they're state bills, I voted to raise property taxes in MN in '04 so schools could get more money. It passed because a lot of other people voted for it too. Get it? Probably not.:roll:

What state?

Hey, they do a great job of getting local mail out overnight and state to state in a couple of days, been like that for years too. And they don't have a monopoly, there's FEDEX and UPS and DHL. Not mention fax machines and email. They stay in business because people still use their service, duh.

Try putting a letter in a #10 envelope and sending it via UPS, FedEx, or DHL. The USPS is the only game in town for standard mail. FedEx, UPS, et al can only handle packages and documents. If something absolutely, positively has to be there on time, you do not use USPS.

Well, they taught you to read and write and do math. They gave you the opportunity to learn about art, politics, music and science. Are you saying that you didn't benefit from your schooling? Well then, it shows.

Actually my mother, father, and sisters taught me to read well before I started formal school. IMO, the kids in government schools learn in spite of the school not because of it.

I only respect folks who return it. You're just a stupid kid who has a problem with keeping their lies straight.

And which lies would that be? I may have said some things with tongue planted firmly in cheek or you have have read something into my post that was not there but don't think I have lied to you.

I actually tested out of a lot of classes, dizzy bitches like you do not humiliate me, they p!ss me off. But you wouldn't get that just like you don't get how you're going to turn into the fat old lady you don't understand in the cubicle next to you.:2razz:

Didn't I point out how bright you are? Although, it must be humiliating when those dizzy bitches get the promotions you should have gotten.

I knew it.

Knew what? That you should do your boss? The next time you see your boss, run up to him, kiss him full on the lips (a little tongue would be a nice touch) and look him straight in the eyes and tell him how much you love him. Maybe then you would get that promotion you have been cheated out of by those dizzy bitches.

BullSh!t! You've just opened a big hole in your cred. You've told me that you're 24 and the kind of business you claim to be in doesn't just get started by a 24 year old. Plus, I thought you'd "probably get a raise and a bonus" if UHC happened. That sounds like someone would have to decide that for you. Also you mentioned before that you had a presentation, bosses don't give presentations they hear them. LIAR LIAR LIAR!

Poor baby, you really need to take a peek out of that box to which you have confined yourself. Bosses don't give presentations, eh. You might what to tell Steve Balmer. He must not have gotten that memo.

You don't have to be an old fart to develop something a lot of people like and want. When you do that, people will give you a shitpot full of money to build the company because they want to go along for the ride. The only downside is you have to report to a Board of Directors. In my case, since I am the principle creative person in the company and my family members and I have controlling interest in the company, I do now worry my pretty head about being downsized.

Never met the guy, BTW lame try at making me out to be gay.

Just trying to give you some suggestions on how you might get ahead. Seems nothing else has worked.

Well if you weren't so stupid and actually read my posts you'd find out I help people all the time. I like doing it and paying for your own healthcare through taxes is not stealing and that childish argument is so fu<king lame it just proves that you aren't who you say you are!

From your posts on this and other threads, you seem to be more of a taker than a giver.

Aww fu<k it one of those guys that has to have the last word. So now maybe I'll stalk you and subscribe to your user name instead so I can go around proving what a stupid LIAR you are every time you post!

You should probably be trying to improve your lot in life insead of hanging out in an online chat room, but you do what you think is best. :2wave:

 

[Saboteur]

Well damn, I was hoping you were willing to give it another try.

"Maybe in another life when we are both cats." - Penelope Cruz in 'Vanilla Sky'

So keep trying.

Yeah me and the army of folks behind Obama are.

Maybe you do pay for your own way now but your posts show you would like someone else to foot the bill.

My real motive is to get covrage for people who don't have insurance and can't get it. Also, it would be nice to not be a slave to my job for benefits. I also think that my employer would treat all it's employees better if they knew none of us were dependant our benefits. See some of us can't afford our monthly perscriptions at full price for the 3 month waiting period most employers have before they enroll you in their plan.

What state?

MN = Minnesota. perhaps they're not bills and something else.

Try putting a letter in a #10 envelope and sending it via UPS, FedEx, or DHL. The USPS is the only game in town for standard mail. FedEx, UPS, et al can only handle packages and documents. If something absolutely, positively has to be there on time, you do not use USPS.

I work in a shipping department I've done it. FEDEX will pretty much take anything my company gives them regardless of packaging.

Actually my mother, father, and sisters taught me to read well before I started formal school. IMO, the kids in government schools learn in spite of the school not because of it.

I don't know where you grew up but my home town had schools that made the nation's top 10.

And which lies would that be? I may have said some things with tongue planted firmly in cheek or you have have read something into my post that was not there but don't think I have lied to you.

Well I don't believe that you're a 24 year old entrapenuer.

Didn't I point out how bright you are? Although, it must be humiliating when those dizzy bitches get the promotions you should have gotten.

It's not humiliating for me if someone gets promoted ahead of me that's the luck of the draw. The ditzs' I'm talking about are my customers not my coworkers. They don't hire a lot of women in the shipping world.

Knew what? That you should do your boss? The next time you see your boss, run up to him, kiss him full on the lips (a little tongue would be a nice touch) and look him straight in the eyes and tell him how much you love him. Maybe then you would get that promotion you have been cheated out of by those dizzy bitches.

Maybe if I grew some ta ta's I'd get more attention. But I really don't want a desk job.

Poor baby, you really need to take a peek out of that box to which you have confined yourself. Bosses don't give presentations, eh. You might what to tell Steve Balmer. He must not have gotten that memo.

Who the hell is Steve Balmer? Wait don't answer, I don't care. I've worked in the corporate world long enough to know how things work.

You don't have to be an old fart to develop something a lot of people like and want. When you do that, people will give you a shitpot full of money to build the company because they want to go along for the ride. The only downside is you have to report to a Board of Directors. In my case, since I am the principle creative person in the company and my family members and I have controlling interest in the company, I do now worry my pretty head about being downsized.

Sorry still don't believe it. Now your from Hawaii but don't live there and you've developed some uber peice of expensive medical equipment and now your family lives on the continent with you and controls the business? Sure.

Just trying to give you some suggestions on how you might get ahead. Seems nothing else has worked.

Well if you read my posts you'd know that I was a self taught wedding photographer for 10 years and cleared $70,000.00 most years. But no benefits come with that so I applied for my own. And silly me, I dislocated my hip when I was 5 and now have a preexisting condition that the insurance co. I applied with thought would give me problems later in loife so no go. Further once one company turns you down none of the other ones are going to touch you.

From your posts on this and other threads, you seem to be more of a taker than a giver.

Ha, sure rivrat is about as easy to communicate with as a brick wall and Right of Center, I think, got banned. Then WICrippler just gave up and Kasmos turned around and is playing nice with me most of the time. But hey I guess I can see it that way too. Though I know you posted on the 'should doctors be allowed to refuse treatment based on moral beleifs' (or somthing like that) thread. You should check out my entries there. Like everybody I have good days and bad days.

You should probably be trying to improve your lot in life insead of hanging out in an online chat room, but you do what you think is best. :2wave:

Do you think I wanted to give up my dream job and take a $35,000 a year pay cut just so I could be enslaved for benefits? That wouldn't have happened if the taxes I paid in then, for pretty much nothing BTW, were paying for my healthcare. That's right my healthcare I'm not saying you should pay for me, I'm saying what I pay in taxes could go to my healthcare... and your's if you needed it.

And I won't be mean to you really, I apologize for that, just don't call me sweetie anymore. I don't like it.