2nd amendment sanity

[ralfy]

2A was written for a past when militias were needed for internal security by the states and to support the federal government standing army. The first was eventually replaced by police, etc., and the second by the National Guard.

As for the right to bear arms, it's a natural one, based on the right of self-defense. That means it exists even without 2A.

 

[ralfy]

About the NRA, there's an interesting article about that here, revealing that it was one of the organizations that wanted to regulate firearms use. Meanwhile, the framers wanted to enforce use through mandatory service, and one of the groups that called for unregulated use was the Black Panthers.

The Secret History of Guns

The Ku Klux Klan, Ronald Reagan, and, for most of its history, the NRA all worked to control guns. The Founding Fathers? They required gun ownership—and regulated it.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[21stcenturyrights]

The NRA has no place in this.
They have one objective, the proliferation of guns.

Wouldn't they be a logical group to lead

I never said they had to be it

But the plan is sound

Don't you agree

Gun owners must develop sane standards as law or as organization

Get it agreed to and approved

Or support sane plans from some other source

Or insane regulations will.be forced on us

Clearly thus "outlaw vs no rules " is failing

 

[21stcenturyrights]

If you are waiting for America's gun owners to do anything, you'll be waiting a while.

Ok would you support regulation like what I outlined

 

[noonereal]

Wouldn't they be a logical group to lead

I never said they had to be it

But the plan is sound

Don't you agree

Gun owners must develop sane standards as law or as organization

Get it agreed to and approved

Or support sane plans from some other source

Or insane regulations will.be forced on us

Clearly thus "outlaw vs no rules " is failing

The plan is sound to you, culturally involved as you seem to be, not to me.

Just that you say that the NRA, the most responsible group in the country for our world leading gun violence, is the logical group to lead is preposterous.

Please, you seem sincere. How do you allow yourself to post so illogical in this regard?

 

[21stcenturyrights]

The plan is sound to you, culturally involved as you seem to be, not to me.

Just that you say that the NRA, the most responsible group in the country for our world leading gun violence, is the logical group to lead is preposterous.

Please, you seem sincere. How do you allow yourself to post so illogical

Please show me where I suggested It should be the NRA,.


I believe I said the n r a or some organization similarly supportive of gun owners

But sure since you clearly know that my plan is not going to work what do you suggest

And before you suggest banning weapons let me remind you how many. Americans have weapons and how many other countries have very high civilian gun ownership and almost no crime because their standard is very similar to what I'm suggesting.

 

[noonereal]

Please show me where I suggested It should be the NRA,.


I believe I said the n r a or some organization similarly supportive of gun owners

But sure since you clearly know that my plan is not going to work what do you suggest

And before you suggest banning weapons let me remind you how many. Americans have weapons and how many other countries have very high civilian gun ownership and almost no crime because their standard is very similar to what I'm suggesting.

Check my posts. I am not typing it all out again. The idea that gun nuts should self regulate has gotten us where we are. Horror.

 

[21stcenturyrights]

Check my posts. I am not typing it all out again. The idea that gun nuts should self regulate has gotten us where we are. Horror.

Well once you define anyone that owns a weapon as a gun nut

The rest of your comments kind of have less validity

What's gotten us to? Where we are is both republican and democrat parties being given ultimate control in this country instead of there being fair and open elections with many ideas

But where we are right now and where we need to be is the purpose of this exact thread

I think the two standards I laid out from how you will be allowed to not have a gun are pretty much should be obvious to everyone

According to the second amendment americans can have guns

According to sweden and many other countries it is okay for properly trained civilians to have firearms

Only in america where properly trained is not a requirement

Do we have such absurd gun violence


So if we had a standard that said if you are trained and certified on the weapon.


And there's nothing in your background. Medical history. Social media posts et cetera indicating you have an extreme violet tendency

It would go a huge way to improve a number of people who lawfully possess firearms who shouldn't

In that where is any kind of an agenda that you could object it

Unless your belief is that every firearm should be removed and then we're simply living in fantasy world

Which neither can happen nor should happen

 

[noonereal]

Well once you define anyone that owns a weapon as a gun nut

The rest of your comments kind of have less validity

What's gotten us to? Where we are is both republican and democrat parties being given ultimate control in this country instead of there being fair and open elections with many ideas

But where we are right now and where we need to be is the purpose of this exact thread

I think the two standards I laid out from how you will be allowed to not have a gun are pretty much should be obvious to everyone

According to the second amendment americans can have guns

According to sweden and many other countries it is okay for properly trained civilians to have firearms

Only in america where properly trained is not a requirement

Do we have such absurd gun violence


So if we had a standard that said if you are trained and certified on the weapon.


And there's nothing in your background. Medical history. Social media posts et cetera indicating you have an extreme violet tendency

It would go a huge way to improve a number of people who lawfully possess firearms who shouldn't

In that where is any kind of an agenda that you could object it

Unless your belief is that every firearm should be removed and then we're simply living in fantasy world

Which neither can happen nor should happen

Omfg

We have too many guns, too many bullets. The capacities are to big. We have weapons with ridiculous rapid fire capabilities. Bullets are too powerful.

What does trying do to address this?

Now you want to ban people who have broken no laws from owning guns? And you think this is gun control?

We need all of the above addressed, they we need limits on guns. One shotgun, one rifle, one hand gun.

Licensed, registered, minimum age requirements, insurance, training certificates.

Its not so ridiculous as have the NRA make money on training classes so they can sell more guns.

 

[21stcenturyrights]

Omfg

We have too many guns, too many bullets. The capacities are to big. We have weapons with ridiculous rapid fire capabilities. Bullets are too powerful.

What does trying do to address this?

Now you want to ban people who have broken no laws from owning guns? And you think this is gun control?

We need all of the above addressed, they we need limits on guns. One shotgun, one rifle, one hand gun.

Licensed, registered, minimum age requirements, insurance, training certificates.

Its not so ridiculous as have the NRA make money on training classes so they can sell more guns.

So you decided we have in your words too many guns too many bullets

Personally I might be inclined to agree with that

But you realize globally many countries allow any kind of weapon to be owned by civilians and they don't have these problems


In the era that I grew up it was quite common to have quite an arsenal in your home


But you also learned from the time you were up to your father's kneecap. How to be safe with weapons and if you were not safe with them? You. Probably no Longer had your ass


So you're saying one of each of those 3 types of weapons? For what scientific reason what basis are you backing that up with and it won per person one per household one per building





But who makes the decision on what's too many

Without infringing on the constitutional rights



If we take the opposite approach which i'm suggesting the more Fair common logical, and actually executable approach


And set standards that say you must prove you know how to use the weapon and there must be no reason to believe you would not be safe with it




Without it becoming inringing

 

[donhughesmusic]

If I want to buy a firearm and I have a choice of going to a store that makes me jump through their arbitrary hoops to buy their product and another store that doesn't make me jump through those hoops, guess where I'm going. (Hint...I don't like jumping through hoops.)

It wouldn't be the gun store's hoops, it would be the hoops that the law outlines.

 

[21stcenturyrights]

It wouldn't be the gun store's hoops, it would be the hoops that the law outlines.

Well you're talking about the mechanism period i'm talking about what the standards should be

Whether it is a membership standard or a legal standard


My point is simple there are two things which should prevent you from possessing ammunition or firearms

If you're not qualified and trained on the weapon in question you can neither buy. The weapon possess the weapon hold the weapon use the weapon or purchase or utilize its ammunition

And 2 if the certifying person has determined. There's anything in your background that indicates you could be a problem having a weapon or having that level of weapon you also don't get it


Otherwise I don't see a lot of mass shootings and gun crime and sweetened where every adult is required to own a firearm and Be certified in its use.doing it.

 

[vegas giants]

I am the most socially liberal person

And yet the most legally and physically conservative

I own guns but I don't have orgasms over them

I believe in the second amendment but I also Believe we need sane systems to stop the craziness that is happening with our almost unregulated access to weapons

And I don't believe it should be governmental regulation


I'm a real estate broker and the board of realtors has created a wonderful management system that puts better controls more effectively than our licensing system

The n r a and other second amendment supporters need to develop a system that is checks and balances that makes sure

People know how to use the guns safely they understand them and they're trained on them

That some competent person has verified the individual buying them is not a threat does not have dangerous things on their social media

Is keeping a low bar extremely low

But it does not have to be a law because you work at the same way. The board of realtors works the m l s

A lot of People are licensed agents who are not realtors

They can deal real estate every day of the week. But they can't use the multiple listing service they cannot rely on the board of realtors for anything

And people in the residential real estate space would never buy from a non realtor


The n r a or some gun organization needs to do the same thing

Create a standard and get gun shops and gun and busias to sign on and support and get certified by the standard

And pretty soon if every gun shop or most of them says you must be a member in order to buy here

That anybody that wants guns is going to become a member and that means they're gonna go through the training process that membership requires

If individuals say we only want to deal with member gun shops

Then guess what every gun shop is going to become a member

And then when the crazies come and say they Have this wonderful idea The infringes

We can say but no our members are already certified in all these different ways. You can't possibly mean us

Remember in most states attorneys are not state licensed

The bar is the only rule

Or we could just try gun control

 

[21stcenturyrights]

Or we could just try gun control

OK well I've shown you? What I think the version of gun control should be what specifically do you think it is

And define that within the grounds of what would be saying if you were actually a gun enthusiast trained and safe in using weapons

And also make sure your rule doesn't automatically fall into the line of a clear infringement which is unconstitutional

 

[vegas giants]

OK well I've shown you? What I think the version of gun control should be what specifically do you think it is

And define that within the grounds of what would be saying if you were actually a gun enthusiast trained and safe in using weapons

And also make sure your rule doesn't automatically fall into the line of a clear infringement which is unconstitutional

Let me get this straight. You want to develop a system that has not been shown to be effective anywhere on earth with guns and you want to do it in the country with the most guns on the planet.


Is that right?

 

[21stcenturyrights]

Let me get this straight. You want to develop a system that has not been shown to be effective anywhere on earth with guns and you want to do it in the country with the most guns on the planet.


Is that right?

1. no. not close.

2. have you heard of sweden? Required firearm ownership?

3 gun RIGHTS (shall not be infringed. the only right with that term) are a FACT.

4. I ask again. your suggestion?

 

[21stcenturyrights]

Or we could just try gun control

Which is what in your definitioN?

 

[natman]

I am the most socially liberal person

And yet the most legally and physically conservative

I own guns but I don't have orgasms over them

I believe in the second amendment but I also Believe we need sane systems to stop the craziness that is happening with our almost unregulated access to weapons

And I don't believe it should be governmental regulation


I'm a real estate broker and the board of realtors has created a wonderful management system that puts better controls more effectively than our licensing system

The n r a and other second amendment supporters need to develop a system that is checks and balances that makes sure

People know how to use the guns safely they understand them and they're trained on them

That some competent person has verified the individual buying them is not a threat does not have dangerous things on their social media

Is keeping a low bar extremely low

But it does not have to be a law because you work at the same way. The board of realtors works the m l s

A lot of People are licensed agents who are not realtors

They can deal real estate every day of the week. But they can't use the multiple listing service they cannot rely on the board of realtors for anything

And people in the residential real estate space would never buy from a non realtor


The n r a or some gun organization needs to do the same thing

Create a standard and get gun shops and gun and busias to sign on and support and get certified by the standard

And pretty soon if every gun shop or most of them says you must be a member in order to buy here

That anybody that wants guns is going to become a member and that means they're gonna go through the training process that membership requires

If individuals say we only want to deal with member gun shops

Then guess what every gun shop is going to become a member

And then when the crazies come and say they Have this wonderful idea The infringes

We can say but no our members are already certified in all these different ways. You can't possibly mean us

Remember in most states attorneys are not state licensed

The bar is the only rule

Nice sentiments and I like the spirit of your proposal, but gun dealers are already HIGHLY regulated by the government. Each gun sale has to follow a detailed procedure and the paper trail is regularly and thoroughly audited by Federal agents. The problem isn't "untrained" gun dealers. If there is an issue at the gun dealer level, it's from a very few deliberately dishonest dealers, and those don't remain in business very long.

 

[RF667799]

Omfg

We have too many guns, too many bullets. The capacities are to big. We have weapons with ridiculous rapid fire capabilities. Bullets are too powerful.

What does trying do to address this?

Now you want to ban people who have broken no laws from owning guns? And you think this is gun control?

We need all of the above addressed, they we need limits on guns. One shotgun, one rifle, one hand gun.

Licensed, registered, minimum age requirements, insurance, training certificates.

Its not so ridiculous as have the NRA make money on training classes so they can sell more guns.

No, I need at least five rifles. And several shotguns. I don't know exactly how many pistols I need, but they aren't that large so there's always room for more.

What sort of power limit would you set for "bullets"? It's really unclear what you are saying, and I doubt you know what you're talking about, but go ahead and give it a shot.

 

[donhughesmusic]

If you're not qualified and trained on the weapon in question you can neither buy. The weapon possess the weapon hold the weapon use the weapon or purchase or utilize its ammunition

So... then are you for military style training in order to purchase a military style weapon (keep in mind that military training also includes psych tests)?

 

[noonereal]

No, I need at least five rifles. And several shotguns. I don't know exactly how many pistols I need, but they aren't that large so there's always room for more.

What sort of power limit would you set for "bullets"? It's really unclear what you are saying, and I doubt you know what you're talking about, but go ahead and give it a shot.

and the reason you need scores of guns? Have you sprouted multiple hands?

 

[donhughesmusic]

No, I need at least five rifles. And several shotguns. I don't know exactly how many pistols I need, but they aren't that large so there's always room for more.

You say you need 5 rifles and several shotguns, but you refuse to say what the purpose is of each gun that you own. Make people understand. What is the the purpose of Rifle 1, Rifle 2, Rifle 3, Rifle 4, Rifle 5, and each shotgun that you own?

 

[Ginger Ale]

You're suggesting that the NRA and Gun Nutts....regulate themselves?

LOL. Oh I think that ship has SAILED long long ago. Thats pretty much what they've been doing: regulating themselves. Which is why theres no real regulation to speak of.

Yeah, proofs in the pudding there.

 

[RF667799]

So... then are you for military style training in order to purchase a military style weapon (keep in mind that military training also includes psych tests)?

Seriously? That kind of surprises me. I knew a few seriously warped people in the Army. I guess whatever was unearthed in whatever psych test they had, wasn't disqualifying.

 

[21stcenturyrights]

Nice sentiments and I like the spirit of your proposal, but gun dealers are already HIGHLY regulated by the government. Each gun sale has to follow a detailed procedure and the paper trail is regularly and thoroughly audited by Federal agents. The problem isn't "untrained" gun dealers. If there is an issue at the gun dealer level, it's from a very few deliberately dishonest dealers, and those don't remain in business very long.

So, what would be wrong with making what I suggest part of their process? either by law or by a membership. And (As im sure you see) I am not saying it's a PROBLEM for the gun dealers, but they are a key component in any program's success and probaly have the most knowledge.