• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

25 years since Columbine

Irrelevant.
The right to keep and bear arms as protected by the 2nd Amendment is held by the people, regardless of their relationship to any militia.
Insertion of the "well regulated militia" into any conversation re: guns is a canard.

Mason said the militia had duties to perform. So what are they, beyond posting out of context quotes on discussion boards?

Who dictated these duties? I got news for you, the state did.
 
And today is 24 years since the Oklahoma City bombing planned and executed by Timothy McVeigh spawned by the same Evangelical Christian Nationalists that are at the core of Donald Trump's political support TODAY.

Is that what you want to do Trump supporters, align yourselves with those that spawned Timothy McVeigh?

How about the other favorites of the Evangelical Christian Nationals? You really think they are any different than the Evangelical Christian Nationals that spawned Timothy McVeigh?

Instead of spewing evangelical hate, learn the facts. His motivation wasn’t religion, but anti-government. Just as one shouldn’t talk about Muslims as if all are terrorists, the same with any religion.
 
It takes a mental problem/disorder to get oneself in the state of mind to walk into a school and start killing innocent young children. The gun did not make them do it.
Sure, and cars don't make people road rage, the anonymity of internet doesn't make people engage in cyber bullying - they're just tools or circumstances which facilitate or empower some people's worst instincts.

You think I'm not in favor of public healthcare?.....which CT hat did you pull that from?
I stereotyped you, much as you stereotyped (less accurately) advocates of gun control. Regardless of your personal views the fact is that gun control advocates being generally liberal- and left-leaning are also very likely to be in favour of universal healthcare, mental health initiatives, inclusiveness and anti-bullying initiatives, social safety nets to mitigate financial stressors and the various other measures likely to mitigate peoples' inclination to engage in mass murder. Conversely, 'second amendment' proponents in America are much more likely to oppose many if not all of those measures. If you're one of the rare few who wants healthcare, welfare, inclusiveness and guns then I guess that's something... but it's far more common that "It's mental illness we need to focus on" is a cynical diversionary 'response' from people and politicians with absolutely no intention of follow through.

Millions upon billions of people have free and ease of access to guns each and everyday and believe it or not never commit a crime or kill innocent people and actually never enters their mind.

You take away a certain type of gun, they'll use another type of gun.....take away all guns, they'll use another type of weapon. That is NOT the solution, as it's far more involved than stupid politics.
There'll always be tools or methods to kill other people, but guns are a tool whose sole and explicit purpose is death, maiming or destruction. Of game animals or targets at their most benign, but you haven't suggested that licenses should be granted specifically for hunting rifles and shooting clubs (a restriction which most gun control advocates would be perfectly happy with). Nor did you answer my question, even though you were the one who raised the topic of psychological disorders:

Would you say that wanting civilians and families to have ready access to instruments of mass murder indicates a sane and healthy mind?
 
Mason said the militia had duties to perform. So what are they, beyond posting out of context quotes on discussion boards?
Who dictated these duties? I got news for you, the state did.
Irrelevant.
The right to keep and bear arms as protected by the 2nd Amendment is held by the people, regardless of their relationship to any militia.
Insertion of the "well regulated militia" into any conversation re: guns is a canard.
 
Would you say that wanting civilians and families to have ready access to instruments of mass murder indicates a sane and healthy mind?
Yep.
The fact firearms are very good at killing people is exactly the reason our right to own them and use them is protected by the constitution; the people who placed the protections for that right into the constitution were among the sanest - and smartest - men to set foot on earth.
 
Yep.
The fact firearms are very good at killing people is exactly the reason our right to own them and use them is protected by the constitution.
Firearms were not very good at killing people in 1791, and ownership by every man and his kid is pretty much the exact opposite of "a well-regulated militia." Still, this tells us something about your mindset and what you think is good, at least (y)
 
Firearms were not very good at killing people in 1791,
That's why they were carried by every soldier in every army in Europe and North America.
Even the Indians used firearms.
and ownership by every man and his kid is pretty much the exact opposite of "a well-regulated militia."
The right to keep and bear arms as protected by the 2nd Amendment is held by the people, regardless of their relationship to any militia.
Insertion of the "well regulated militia" into any conversation re: guns is a canard.
Still, this tells us something about your mindset and what you think is good, at least (y)
Fact remains:
The fact firearms are very good at killing people is exactly the reason our right to own them and use them is protected by the constitution; the people who placed the protections for that right into the constitution were among the sanest - and smartest - men to set foot on earth.

Therefore, the plain and obvious answer to your question is: Yes.
 
I understand guns play a significant role, including ones formerly considered more appropriate for combat.
Which ones were formerly considered more appropriate for combat?

Harris’s 9mm carbine with 10 round magazines or his pump action shotgun? Or was it Klebold’s 9mm pistol and double barreled shotgun?
 
Guns are celebrated and marketed today in a way they weren't when we were younger. They are seen as a legitimate tool for conflict solving.
In the gangbanger culture.
Recently, a young fellow chose to take a gun to a riot to shoot people.
Alice. He had the rifle to protect himself and it was a good thing that he did.
He did and is thus treated by many as a celebrity

This can't be healthy.
 
That's why they were carried by every soldier in every army in Europe and North America.
Even the Indians used firearms.

The right to keep and bear arms as protected by the 2nd Amendment is held by the people, regardless of their relationship to any militia.
Insertion of the "well regulated militia" into any conversation re: guns is a canard.

Fact remains:
The fact firearms are very good at killing people is exactly the reason our right to own them and use them is protected by the constitution; the people who placed the protections for that right into the constitution were among the sanest - and smartest - men to set foot on earth.

Therefore, the plain and obvious answer to your question is: Yes.
The right to keep and bear arms belongs to "the people" in countries with quite strict gun laws like Canada and Australia too. It is a collective and circumstantial right, not an individual and universal right, as all but the most insane 2A advocates recognize with restrictions on gun ownership by felons, restrictions on carrying in some locations such as seats of government and restrictions on some 'arms' such as heavy artillery and cruise missiles. Among people mature enough to set aside any insane absolutism, it's simply a matter of quibbling over where to draw the line. And the simple fact is that in terms of firepower or potential deaths per second, what was authorized in 1791 was a lower threshold (even per capita) than what most US gun control advocates aim for today.

Pretending that your founding fathers are somehow 'on your side' even though they had absolutely zero understanding of 21st century technology or society seems like a rather extreme form of delusion all on its own, quite aside from the eagerness for families to have ready access to instruments of mass murder.
 
I think some efforts have been made that have probably made schools safer. Better physical security as well as shooter alerts and drills, better training for teachers and police.

But the root cause has not been addressed and the fact that students and their parents are fearful is heartbreaking.
Assuming there is just one root cause. There could be real arguments made for at least 3 that I can think of.
 
In the gangbanger culture.

Alice. He had the rifle to protect himself and it was a good thing that he did.

Republican Congressional leaders having family Chistmas card photos taken with everyone bearing weapons are gang-banger culture?


The sane, emotionally well-adjusted thing to do would have been to not go at all.

But you all want to glorify a killer and then wonder how a kid could shoot up a school.

What a world.
 
Republican Congressional leaders having family Chistmas card photos taken with everyone bearing weapons are gang-banger culture?
Nope. The gangbanger culture is what “progressives” protect in the name for social justice reform.
The sane, emotionally well-adjusted thing to do would have been to not go at all.
The rioters should have stayed home as well.
But you all want to glorify a killer and then wonder how a kid could shoot up a school.
Never glorified him. A jury found that he acted in lawful self defense and that just burns you up.
What a world.
 
Nope. The gangbanger culture is what “progressives” protect in the name for social justice reform.

The rioters should have stayed home as well.

Never glorified him. A jury found that he acted in lawful self defense and that just burns you up.

So obviously not just gamgbangers glorify gun culture.

I agree. I put the rioters and Rittenhouse on the same level.

He is glorified by the Republican Party.
 
Yep.
The fact firearms are very good at killing people is exactly the reason our right to own them and use them is protected by the constitution; the people who placed the protections for that right into the constitution were among the sanest - and smartest - men to set foot on earth.


They had slaves to keep under control and Native Americans to dispossess.

But otherwise, yeah, a great group of guys.
 
Irrelevant.
The right to keep and bear arms as protected by the 2nd Amendment is held by the people, regardless of their relationship to any militia.
Insertion of the "well regulated militia" into any conversation re: guns is a canard.

Why was it inserted into the Constitution?
 
Why was it inserted into the Constitution?
It makes more sense if you read the original draft of the 2A:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

1) The PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms.

2) A well armed was the best security of a free country, BUT
2.a) No-one whose religion forbid bearing arms could be forced to serve in the militia

And here is the second draft:

A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the People, being the best security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.

The Amendment would take what would become its final form in the Senate, where the religious-objector clause was finally removed and several other phrases were modified. For instance, the phrase referencing the militia as "composed of the body of the People" was struck, and the descriptor of the militia as "the best security of a free State" was modified to "necessary to the security of a free State". Several other changes were proposed and rejected, including adding limitations on a standing army "in time of peace" and adding next to the words "bear arms" the phrase "for the common defence".

So, the Senate specifically rejected the addition of "for the common defense" because the 2A protects an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT.

Edit to add source:
 
It makes more sense if you read the original draft of the 2A:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

1) The PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms.

2) A well armed was the best security of a free country, BUT
2.a) No-one whose religion forbid bearing arms could be forced to serve in the militia

And here is the second draft:

A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the People, being the best security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.

The Amendment would take what would become its final form in the Senate, where the religious-objector clause was finally removed and several other phrases were modified. For instance, the phrase referencing the militia as "composed of the body of the People" was struck, and the descriptor of the militia as "the best security of a free State" was modified to "necessary to the security of a free State". Several other changes were proposed and rejected, including adding limitations on a standing army "in time of peace" and adding next to the words "bear arms" the phrase "for the common defence".

So, the Senate specifically rejected the addition of "for the common defense" because the 2A protects an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT.

Edit to add source:

So bearing arms is strictly for serving in the militia.
 
You implied that Harris and Klebold had "ones [guns] formerly considered more appropriate for combat."

So, what did you mean by that?

That such guns are used in school shootings.
 
So bearing arms is strictly for serving in the militia.
I hope you are not a teacher.

It is very clear from every draft that the INDIVIDUAL RKBA belongs to the people. The militia is made up of the people but you are not required to be in the militia in order to keep and bear arms.
 
Back
Top Bottom