• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

2019 2nd Hottest Year On Record

I used to be one of those long-haired, tie-dyed hippy types. That's when I learned not to take conventional wisdom at face value.
Regarding plate tectonics, my favorite formulation was: In the 1960's you couldn't get a university job if you believed in plate tectonics. In the 1970's you couldn't get a university job if you didn't.

And finally, please note that perhaps the greatest thinker about scientific process in our lifetime studiously avoids "consensus."

“Observation and experience can and must drastically restrict the range of admissible scientific belief, else there would be no science. But they cannot alone determine a particular body of such belief. An apparently arbitrary element, compounded of personal and historical accident, is always a formative ingredient of the beliefs espoused by a given scientific community at a given time”
Thomas S. Kuhn, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions

You used to be a hippy type!?! Get out of town! :rock (Sometimes I wish DebatePolitics would hold a conference and we could meet each other in person. We'd wear a picture of our avatars on our chests or something. Wouldn't that be a kick? I think it would have the effect of turning down the vitriol a bit, which I find myself getting sucked into too often).

Yes, I studied Kuhn in my MA program. The picture he drew of scientific progress proceeding in stages where progress is only made when one generation is replaced by a new generation that don't have the same blinders was somewhat overdrawn in my opinion. But certainly there are examples of stodgy stubbornness preventing progress. Plate tectonics is a good example of that. But there are many, many counterexamples of theories pretty much keeping pace with new evidence. They went back and forth on the Big Bang for decades until the background cosmic radiation was discovered, at just about the exact frequency predicted.

However, at the risk of repeating myself, science just doesn't allow uncomfortable facts to go ignored over time. I don't know many human endeavors that can be said about. Eventually the evidence forces scientists, however stubborn, to eventually accept the best theory of the times. Including, as we've seen, plate tectonics. Eventually that paradigm shifts.
 
I was right about the Chinook Winds last month. They came a month early this Winter. Which means that the unusually warmer temperatures created by the Chinook Winds will be recorded in December 2019 temperatures, instead of the January 2020 temperatures, as is typical for those winds. If the Chinook Winds return back to blowing during the month of January, like they normally do, then the next time they blow will be in January 2021. That should make the year 2020 just a tad cooler than it would have been normally.

People who assume we have steady state climate over the entire earth owe themselves a study into Chinook winds. They will learn that even in particular areas, what was sub zero temperatures can rapidly rise by 50 degrees in a matter of minutes.

So why this?

Because the alarmists want you to accept earth averages, which are a myth. Can you average Earth all over?

Can you average the temperature of your home to say the Igloos of the far north?
 
[FONT="][URL="https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/01/17/were-ipccs-1990-medium-term-warming-predictions-accurate-no/"]
clip_image008-2.jpg
[/URL][/FONT]

[h=1]Were IPCC’s 1990 medium-term warming predictions accurate? No.[/h][FONT="][FONT=inherit]By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley In the increasingly vain hope of success in flogging the dead horse Global Warming, revisionists are increasingly trying to pretend that climatologists’ original predictions of doom were accurate. Here, I shall take a further look at the single most important prediction of them all: IPCC’s prediction of medium-term warming from…[/FONT]
[FONT=inherit][URL="https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/01/17/were-ipccs-1990-medium-term-warming-predictions-accurate-no/"]Continue reading →[/URL][/FONT]
[/FONT]

Much of what passes for “climate science” is just like what I have exposed here: disingenuous at best and downright dishonest at worst. If Mr Trump wins this year’s election, he will set up the red team/blue team enquiry, under a retired Federal Appeal Judge, of which the liars and fraudsters are so visibly terrified, and with which they have hitherto leaned very heavily upon him not to proceed.

Rules of evidence will be followed. Each side will be able to present its own case and cross-examine its opponents. A proper hearing of both sides using the courts’ formal rules of procedure is perhaps the only way to prevent the serial disingenuousness and dishonesty that I have highlighted here, and to fix in place the goalposts of objective truth.
Yet another Trump promise unfulfilled. Hopefully voters won't be fooled a second time...

I stipulate that there are naysayers out there. We have the internet and Google, and we can find supporters of both sides of any question. With regard to technical disputes in which it takes years of training to really fully grasp what is being explained, we mere mortals are left to decide who is right based on who we trust. Do you trust NASA and the world community of experts in this field? Or isolated individuals, who rarely turn out to be actual climate scientists, who are claiming to support a position your preexisting ideology wants to believe?

I try to think of examples where I believe in something that is ideologically compatible but is not widely accepted by the experts. I actually can't think of any. Does that mean I'm not a "free-thinker?" Maybe. Or maybe it means I'm on my guard not to bend the facts to fit my ideology.
 
You used to be a hippy type!?! Get out of town! :rock (Sometimes I wish DebatePolitics would hold a conference and we could meet each other in person. We'd wear a picture of our avatars on our chests or something. Wouldn't that be a kick? I think it would have the effect of turning down the vitriol a bit, which I find myself getting sucked into too often).

Yes, I studied Kuhn in my MA program. The picture he drew of scientific progress proceeding in stages where progress is only made when one generation is replaced by a new generation that don't have the same blinders was somewhat overdrawn in my opinion. But certainly there are examples of stodgy stubbornness preventing progress. Plate tectonics is a good example of that. But there are many, many counterexamples of theories pretty much keeping pace with new evidence. They went back and forth on the Big Bang for decades until the background cosmic radiation was discovered, at just about the exact frequency predicted.

However, at the risk of repeating myself, science just doesn't allow uncomfortable facts to go ignored over time. I don't know many human endeavors that can be said about. Eventually the evidence forces scientists, however stubborn, to eventually accept the best theory of the times. Including, as we've seen, plate tectonics. Eventually that paradigm shifts.

I never was the "hippy type" primarily having been around them from early on. I and pals loved going to SF for the Jazz and seeing slobs walking up the sidewalk so screwed up they had no idea what city they were in. It was terrible then. But to the slobs, they lived the hippy life.

I question the so called alarmist science. To me when you alarm humans, you must have a solid reason to alarm them. To alarm them over a science so few claim to understand, as were all of science climate experts on the same page, is a leap too far for me to leap.

Why. Use common sense. When the record high was set in 1913 at the enormous Death Valley, could they then declare man did that? Definitely not. Why not? It cooled down so much that today a hot day is 110 rather than 134. The evidence is not there for the alarmists.

This is why Democrats love it. They want you to suffer more fools making more rules that by god they intend for you to obey. It is part of the overall policy of making this nation suffer the fools called Democrats who so love laws they constantly churn them out forcing you to obey them alone.

Who raises hell when Trump frees us of laws?

Come on ... it is the Democrats.
 
Yet another Trump promise unfulfilled. Hopefully voters won't be fooled a second time...

I stipulate that there are naysayers out there. We have the internet and Google, and we can find supporters of both sides of any question. With regard to technical disputes in which it takes years of training to really fully grasp what is being explained, we mere mortals are left to decide who is right based on who we trust. Do you trust NASA and the world community of experts in this field? Or isolated individuals, who rarely turn out to be actual climate scientists, who are claiming to support a position your preexisting ideology wants to believe?

I try to think of examples where I believe in something that is ideologically compatible but is not widely accepted by the experts. I actually can't think of any. Does that mean I'm not a "free-thinker?" Maybe. Or maybe it means I'm on my guard not to bend the facts to fit my ideology.

What accounts for the former NASA experts saying this is not done to Earth by man? When the experts solved it mathematically, clearly man is not at fault for all of the warming.

This former NASA scientist wants this mess studied. And has been working hard for the funding and people who are willing to work on the mess.

https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201904/wielicki.cfm

Make the case for us. What is this observatory you want to build, and why do we need it?

We don’t have a climate observing system rigorously designed for collecting data over long time scales. Everybody’s been doing their own individual missions. Maybe one satellite’s spectrometer is optimized for quantifying chlorophyll in the oceans, and another is optimized for studying aerosol properties. Each satellite’s instruments are designed to measure reflected solar radiation in a range of different wavelengths, and you end up with this mess where it’s hard to compare data collected by different satellites.

So I’m proposing this: what if the countries of the world agreed to design, build, and maintain a dedicated climate observatory system? We did this with weather forecasting back in the 50’s and 60’s. For example, the UN established the World Meteorological Organization, which coordinates international infrastructure to produce and disseminate weather forecasts.

Where do things stand now?

The CLARREO Pathfinder mission that I’m leading is a small step toward standardizing climate data. It’s a spectrometer that will go on the ISS for calibrating instruments on satellites. It’ll cross the orbits of various satellites 1,300 times. During these orbit crossings, it’ll take data that correct for calibration drifts. The most common cause of these drifts is from contaminants in the instruments that get fixed on optical components by direct solar UV exposure. The effects can be larger than 10 percent over a decade or less. CLARREO will calibrate these drifts and make for a more accurate climate record in the long term.

I’ve also collaborated with Roger Cooke, an economist, to publish several papers on the long-term economic benefits of building an international observatory. We calculated a metric called value of information (VOI). VOI is essentially an estimate of the economic value of accurate climate data, assuming that the government uses it to prevent climate-related disasters. We’ve estimated that for each dollar we invest in the observatory, it will return around 50 dollars in avoided damages. The economic models we use add around a factor of 5 of uncertainty, so the return on investment ranges from about 10 dollars per dollar to 250 dollars per dollar. Working with other climate scientists, I’ve put together a whitepaper making the case for this idea for the U.S. Global Change Research Program, which is the head group of all the scientific agencies. We’ve also published several academic papers on this.

So we have all sorts of documentation that we need to build this observing system. But no one has said, dang it, it’s worth it, let’s go ahead and do it. I’ve been giving talks about building it for about five years now. It doesn’t appear to be going anywhere.
 
Sigh

I knew that particular denier nonsense would be coming.

Climate scientists have NEVER said “hottest in all of Earth’s history.” And yes, “hottest on record” it is relevant, because it is a continuation of a trend that is over 100+ years now, and it’s a result of human activity.

You have no way of verify any of that.

If it's not the hottest in all history, then there's not much relevancy.
 
People who assume we have steady state climate over the entire earth owe themselves a study into Chinook winds. They will learn that even in particular areas, what was sub zero temperatures can rapidly rise by 50 degrees in a matter of minutes.

So why this?

Because the alarmists want you to accept earth averages, which are a myth. Can you average Earth all over?

Can you average the temperature of your home to say the Igloos of the far north?

Just because you don’t understand how it’s done doesn’t mean it isn’t real.


46803bc1a7106710f6c250fe294db9e1.jpg
 
People who assume we have steady state climate over the entire earth owe themselves a study into Chinook winds.
:roll:

Climate scientists do not believe in any sort of "steady state climate." They are well aware that a) there are all sorts of natural events that influence climate, and b) human activity has overwhelmed those natural causes during the Industrial Area.

In fact, the Earth was cooling for around 6000 years, and would have continued to cool for another 19000 years, if humans hadn't emitted massive amounts of GHGs into the atmosphere.

By the way, the Chinook Winds have nothing to do with the fundamental issue, which is that an increase in greenhouse gases is trapping more heat in the Earth's atmosphere. Nor do they throw off any measurements. I.e. it isn't climate scientists who need to hit the books....


Can you average Earth all over?
Of course we can. Please, stop embarrassing yourself.


Can you average the temperature of your home to say the Igloos of the far north?
That's not how it works. Why am I not surprised that you don't know that?

There are a variety of methods for looking at global temperatures and other climate impacts. The most obvious one is that we have over 7000 temperature stations around the world; we're measuring ocean temperatures, on the surface and well below; we're measuring temperatures of the entire atmosphere; we're measuring the Earth's energy balance... the list goes on.
 
This week at the big 100 year anniversary shindig of the American Meteorological Society (AMS) there was a press release session that featured NOAA and NASA GISS talking about how their climate data says that the world in 2019 was the second warmest ever, and the decade of 2010-2019 was the hottest ever (by a few…[/FONT]

Posting articles from a climate change denial blog is not persuasive. As always seems to be the case, Anthony Watt isn't even a climate scientist. He's a meteorologist by trade--he holds no college degree. High School is his highest diploma.

And he doesn't seem very truthful:

BEST project, alleged doubling of trend by NOAA
Main article: Berkeley Earth
In March 2011 Watts visited the Berkeley Earth Temperature project (BEST), and said "I'm prepared to accept whatever result they produce, even if it proves my premise wrong."[8] In October the project released data and a draft of their paper which produced results supporting the existing scientific consensus. Watts said that its methodology was flawed, complaining that the BEST study analyzed a larger period than his own research, and that it was not yet peer reviewed.[8] Richard A. Muller, founder of BEST, later said their study directly addressed Watts' concern about the condition of weather stations; "we discovered that station quality does not affect the results. Even poor stations reflected temperature changes accurately."[58]

Around 22 July 2012, Watts heard that the BEST project was about to release further material, and decided to release a paper he and Evan Jones had been working on for about a year.[59] On 27 July he blogged that WUWT was suspended until noon on 29 July: "major announcement coming".[60] The New York Times published a summary of further draft results from BEST, including an announcement from Muller that their study now showed that humans "are almost entirely the cause" of the warming. Shortly afterwards, Watts announced his own team's draft paper which said that previously reported temperature rises had been "spuriously doubled", and made the serious accusation that NOAA had inflated the rate by erroneous adjustments to the data.[61][62] Climate scientists and other bloggers quickly found flaws in the paper. Steve McIntyre, who Watts had named as a co-author, stressed that his involvement had been "very last minute and limited". He agreed with criticisms including the point that Watts had failed to correct for time of observation bias, and noted that independent satellite temperature measurements were closer to the NOAA figures.[63]

In 2012 BEST released its series of peer-reviewed papers confirming previous results that the surface temperature is rising.[64]

None of this surprises me.
 
That's fine. Make your case. But link or source your graphs.

If that's all it took, this thread would have been about three posts long. But it never is.
 
What accounts for the former NASA experts saying this is not done to Earth by man?
Bruce Wielicki never says anything even remotely along those lines.

Here's a TED Talk which makes it very clear he agrees with the consensus. He refers to the IPCC as "the best wisdom we have on the planet for where the climate system is going, what our risks are, what our issues are;" he blasts people who proclaim that there "hasn't been warming since 1998;" he's aware of how much instrumentation has improved since the 60s; he accepts that there will be sea level rise as a result of warming; he points out that the accusations of "Climategate" were wrong, and there was no conspiracy or misdeeds; and of course, he openly states that our CO2 emissions are "pushing the planet 100 times faster than an interglacial is pushing it by our orbit around the sun. We are doing something the planet has never seen before."




This former NASA scientist wants this mess studied.
:roll:

No, what he wants is better instrumentation, and a government agency that makes climate change its number one job.

Again, I find myself unable to decide whether such quote mining is hilarious or pathetic. I think in this case, I'm going to go with pathetic, as it is so incredibly transparent and flawed.
 
I took physics both in high school and the much more advanced physics in college. The latter included using Calculus in physics discussions and solutions.

I never heard any teacher speak of some consensus.

How are theories discussed? Are all theories equal? Does the theory of evolution hold the same amount of gravitas as the crackpot theory of intelligent design? What distinguishes the two? Why do the vast majority of scientists use one and not the other when explaining phenomena in biology, geology, paleontology, and so on?
 
People who assume we have steady state climate over the entire earth owe themselves a study into Chinook winds. They will learn that even in particular areas, what was sub zero temperatures can rapidly rise by 50 degrees in a matter of minutes.
So why this?
Because the alarmists want you to accept earth averages, which are a myth. Can you average Earth all over?
Can you average the temperature of your home to say the Igloos of the far north?

Yes, of course.
 
I never was the "hippy type" primarily having been around them from early on. I and pals loved going to SF for the Jazz and seeing slobs walking up the sidewalk so screwed up they had no idea what city they were in. It was terrible then. But to the slobs, they lived the hippy life.
I question the so called alarmist science. To me when you alarm humans, you must have a solid reason to alarm them. To alarm them over a science so few claim to understand, as were all of science climate experts on the same page, is a leap too far for me to leap.
Why. Use common sense. When the record high was set in 1913 at the enormous Death Valley, could they then declare man did that? Definitely not. Why not? It cooled down so much that today a hot day is 110 rather than 134. The evidence is not there for the alarmists.
This is why Democrats love it. They want you to suffer more fools making more rules that by god they intend for you to obey. It is part of the overall policy of making this nation suffer the fools called Democrats who so love laws they constantly churn them out forcing you to obey them alone.
Who raises hell when Trump frees us of laws?
Come on ... it is the Democrats.

Who is freed from the laws? Often it's corporations. So when corporations are "freed" from laws, can we trust them to do what's right? Like the tobacco industry? Were they truthful to the public? To their customers? How about ExxonMobil? How about the pharmaceutical industry? How about DuPont? How about Ford's Pinto? How about the banking industry in general and Wells Fargo in particular?

None of this has to do with whether or not climate change is real. That's for scientists to say and for responsible people to respond to intelligently and responsibly.
 
What accounts for the former NASA experts saying this is not done to Earth by man? When the experts solved it mathematically, clearly man is not at fault for all of the warming.

Go to the NASA climate site. Then get a degree in climate science. Then publish peer-reviewed papers explaining why the overwhelming scientific consensus is wrong. If you can make a valid argument backed up with data, science will advance. Let us know how you do.
 
No, what he wants is better instrumentation, and a government agency that makes climate change its number one job.

Imagine. A climate scientist who is totally invested in exploring the full effects of climate change, asking for better instrumentation to make his work even more accurate.

Doesn't sound like a conspiracy to hide a falsehood to me.
 
I understand this viewpoint. There are lots of reasons to not take action. Asking people to sacrifice is always difficult, especially when they see other people not making similar sacrifices. Starting in on a big discussion of what's fair is not going to be fruitful.

So.

I think we won't be able to depress consumption of fossil fuels by asking for sacrifice. I just don't think people will respond. Therefore, we need to be investigation carbon recapture technologies. Technology got us into this mess, hopefully technology can pull us out.

In the meantime, we should do what we can, like reduce our use, promote alternative energy sources, and whatnot. Alternative energy is a booming industry, now employing more people than the fossil fuel industry.

And at an absolute minimum, we should stop subsidizing the fossil fuel industry. Use the money save to promote carbon recapture. Whoever builds the best mousetrap in that area will be minting money.

Other nations are not caught up in global warming stupidity. They are not going to take their tax money and throw it to socialists around the world to experiment with socialist models of sustainable growth which involve redistributing their wealth to help poor nations on earth and redesigning their governments to make them more compatible with unified worldwide socialistic rule.
 
Other nations are not caught up in global warming stupidity. They are not going to take their tax money and throw it to socialists around the world to experiment with socialist models of sustainable growth which involve redistributing their wealth to help poor nations on earth and redesigning their governments to make them more compatible with unified worldwide socialistic rule.

Actually, many nations are taking significant steps to address global warming. It's sad to watch the US, which I'm used to thinking of as setting an example for the world, be dragged backward by a political party that is anti-science.
 
Actually, many nations are taking significant steps to address global warming. It's sad to watch the US, which I'm used to thinking of as setting an example for the world, be dragged backward by a political party that is anti-science.

Yes it's said with countries like US and also Australia there politicians wants to spend billions of dollar on propping up the failing coal industry instead of taking action on climate change.

Daily chart - Donald Trump hopes to save America’s failing coal-fired power plants | Graphic detail | The Economist

Adani mine would be 'unviable' without $4.4bn in subsidies, report finds | Environment | The Guardian

While you also have positive example from around the world like for example Denmark that got 47 percent of electricity from wind power last year.

Denmark sources record 47% of power from wind in 2019 - Reuters
 
You used to be a hippy type!?! Get out of town! :rock (Sometimes I wish DebatePolitics would hold a conference and we could meet each other in person. We'd wear a picture of our avatars on our chests or something. Wouldn't that be a kick? I think it would have the effect of turning down the vitriol a bit, which I find myself getting sucked into too often).

Yes, I studied Kuhn in my MA program. The picture he drew of scientific progress proceeding in stages where progress is only made when one generation is replaced by a new generation that don't have the same blinders was somewhat overdrawn in my opinion. But certainly there are examples of stodgy stubbornness preventing progress. Plate tectonics is a good example of that. But there are many, many counterexamples of theories pretty much keeping pace with new evidence. They went back and forth on the Big Bang for decades until the background cosmic radiation was discovered, at just about the exact frequency predicted.

However, at the risk of repeating myself, science just doesn't allow uncomfortable facts to go ignored over time. I don't know many human endeavors that can be said about. Eventually the evidence forces scientists, however stubborn, to eventually accept the best theory of the times. Including, as we've seen, plate tectonics. Eventually that paradigm shifts.

As it will on climate.
 
That was never a "consensus."

Ah but there was. Memory of it survived even the 1984-ish effort of William Connolley to erase all evidence from Wikipedia. He was banned from editing at Wikipedia as a result, and the flame of truth flickers on.
 
Posting articles from a climate change denial blog is not persuasive. As always seems to be the case, Anthony Watt isn't even a climate scientist. He's a meteorologist by trade--he holds no college degree. High School is his highest diploma.

And he doesn't seem very truthful:



None of this surprises me.

I'm not sure Watts was the untruthful party.

[h=1]The Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project puts PR before peer review[/h][FONT=&quot]UPDATE: see this new story BEST: What I agree with and what I disagree with – plus a call for additional transparency to prevent “pal” review ======================================================= Readers may recall this post last week where I complained about being put in a uncomfortable quandary by an author of a new paper. Despite that, I chose to…
[/FONT]

October 20, 2011 in Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature, Climate data, Peer review, Post-normal science.
 
Back
Top Bottom