18 steps to far

[The German]

The Swiss will vote this sunday on raising the minimum wage to 18 Euros per hour, which would amount to almoust 4000 Swiss Franks per month and about 20 dollars per hour (I am guessing about the dollar worth).

This goes completly against the notion on what a minimum wage should be and will have some drastic effects on the Swiss service sector and manufacturing sector economy.

In my opinion this also serves as another great example why swiss style direct democracy is nonsence.

From giving women the right to vote in the 1980s, legalising the consumtion of heroin in Geneva, criminalising sex before marrige up to the late 1970s to this nonsence here, it just shows that giving the mob legislative power and taking that power from representatives, only serves to create and further the worst possible right wing and left wing excesses.

Schweiz und Mindestlohn: Abstimmung über höchsten Mindestlohn der Welt - SPIEGEL ONLINE

 

[MaggieD]

The Swiss will vote this sunday on raising the minimum wage to 18 Euros per hour, which would amount to almoust 4000 Swiss Franks per month and about 20 dollars per hour (I am guessing about the dollar worth).

This goes completly against the notion on what a minimum wage should be and will have some drastic effects on the Swiss service sector and manufacturing sector economy.

In my opinion this also serves as another great example why swiss style direct democracy is nonsence.

From giving women the right to vote in the 1980s, legalising the consumtion of heroin in Geneva, criminalising sex before marrige up to the late 1970s to this nonsence here, it just shows that giving the mob legislative power and taking that power from representatives, only serves to create and further the worst possible right wing and left wing excesses.

Schweiz und Mindestlohn: Abstimmung über höchsten Mindestlohn der Welt - SPIEGEL ONLINE

$24.65 to be exact. Wow. Guess they won't have any McDonald's.

 

[Rainman05]

$24.65 to be exact. Wow. Guess they won't have any McDonald's.

I think the Swiss are on to something but they're doing it half-assed.

Just raising the minimum wage won't accomplish anything but what they should do, alongside that, is go in and automate as much as possible. Automate McDonalds... why not. Automate garbage collecting. Automate everything that can be automated and then get rid of as many "minimum wage" jobs as we see them today, jobs that require no educational skills or talents... and leave only those jobs. Couple this automatization with adult educational programs to retrain those under 40 to new skills that will be needed in the this century and you're golden.

But ofc, to do that you'd need people who think about such things. What the swiss are doing is half-assed populism and that's not good.

 

[joG]

The Swiss will vote this sunday on raising the minimum wage to 18 Euros per hour, which would amount to almoust 4000 Swiss Franks per month and about 20 dollars per hour (I am guessing about the dollar worth).

This goes completly against the notion on what a minimum wage should be and will have some drastic effects on the Swiss service sector and manufacturing sector economy.

In my opinion this also serves as another great example why swiss style direct democracy is nonsence.

From giving women the right to vote in the 1980s, legalising the consumtion of heroin in Geneva, criminalising sex before marrige up to the late 1970s to this nonsence here, it just shows that giving the mob legislative power and taking that power from representatives, only serves to create and further the worst possible right wing and left wing excesses.

Schweiz und Mindestlohn: Abstimmung über höchsten Mindestlohn der Welt - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Interesting. Thx for the link. I had missed it.

 

[MaggieD]

I think the Swiss are on to something but they're doing it half-assed.

Just raising the minimum wage won't accomplish anything but what they should do, alongside that, is go in and automate as much as possible. Automate McDonalds... why not. Automate garbage collecting. Automate everything that can be automated and then get rid of as many "minimum wage" jobs as we see them today, jobs that require no educational skills or talents... and leave only those jobs. Couple this automatization with adult educational programs to retrain those under 40 to new skills that will be needed in the this century and you're golden.

But ofc, to do that you'd need people who think about such things. What the swiss are doing is half-assed populism and that's not good.

Switzerland's McDonald's $12 burger:

Is the $12 McDonald's burger for real?

 

[Rainman05]

Switzerland's McDonald's $12 burger:

Is the $12 McDonald's burger for real?

True but on the other hand, with fast food gone or dying, more and more people will eat less fast food and eat proper food. The whole "food culture" and all that goes with it, lunch breaks, where people eat, will change and it may be the start a healthier lifestyle conditioning in Switzerland. It is already a country that is quite far ahead of others in terms of this food culture. Organic foods are at an all time high... meat consumption per capita is lower than say, in the USA.


But it's not the McDonalds' jobs that is a tragedy that will go extinct. You can always have people hired as waiters to diners or cafeterias that will open in their stead. It's the public works employees. Automate as much as possible in construction, in garbage collection and disposal, in other public sectors like postal workers, etc.

 

[RGacky3]

I think the Swiss are on to something but they're doing it half-assed.

Just raising the minimum wage won't accomplish anything but what they should do, alongside that, is go in and automate as much as possible. Automate McDonalds... why not. Automate garbage collecting. Automate everything that can be automated and then get rid of as many "minimum wage" jobs as we see them today, jobs that require no educational skills or talents... and leave only those jobs. Couple this automatization with adult educational programs to retrain those under 40 to new skills that will be needed in the this century and you're golden.

But ofc, to do that you'd need people who think about such things. What the swiss are doing is half-assed populism and that's not good.

If they could automade McDonalds you don't think they'd do it no matter what the wage? Do you really think People dont' make use of Technology because wages are low? Common now.

 

[MaggieD]

If they could automade McDonalds you don't think they'd do it no matter what the wage? Do you really think People dont' make use of Technology because wages are low? Common now.

It's already being done:

In this Thursday, Dec. 5, 2013 file photo, protesters rally for better wages at a Wendy's in Detroit. Fast food chains are the epicenter of the battle over the minimum wage, with employees staging protests for an increase.

As pressure has been growing to hike the minimum wage, President Obama is now taking up the cause. Meanwhile, without great fanfare, two major restaurant chains have taken the first step toward replacing low-wage staff with automation.

Applebee's and Wendy's -- automated tablets to take orders. I'd welcome them at drive-thrus. It's always amazed me that we can communicate with men on the moon better than we can thru drive-thru speakers to someone 35 feet away. Combine the poor technology with an accent, and sometimes I can't understand a word they say.

 

[RGacky3]

It's already being done:

Applebee's and Wendy's -- automated tablets to take orders. I'd welcome them at drive-thrus. It's always amazed me that we can communicate with men on the moon better than we can thru drive-thru speakers to someone 35 feet away. Combine the poor technology with an accent, and sometimes I can't understand a word they say.

Nothing to do With increases in wages.

 

[MaggieD]

Nothing to do With increases in wages.

Never said it did. Automation is coming wherever it can. Most restaurants have POS systems...this is just an extension of that.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

The Swiss will vote this sunday on raising the minimum wage to 18 Euros per hour, which would amount to almoust 4000 Swiss Franks per month and about 20 dollars per hour (I am guessing about the dollar worth).

This goes completly against the notion on what a minimum wage should be and will have some drastic effects on the Swiss service sector and manufacturing sector economy.

In my opinion this also serves as another great example why swiss style direct democracy is nonsence.

From giving women the right to vote in the 1980s, legalising the consumtion of heroin in Geneva, criminalising sex before marrige up to the late 1970s to this nonsence here, it just shows that giving the mob legislative power and taking that power from representatives, only serves to create and further the worst possible right wing and left wing excesses.

Schweiz und Mindestlohn: Abstimmung über höchsten Mindestlohn der Welt - SPIEGEL ONLINE

If they want it and they are willing to make it work then good for them.

*shrug*

That's the purpose of having different countries with different social and economic concepts: they have control over their lives and how they want it to be lived without others on the outside coming along and making changes.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Switzerland's McDonald's $12 burger:

Is the $12 McDonald's burger for real?

You know what? 5 years ago when I was in California a big mac was something like $9.00. We went to McD's for lunch one day and it was OVER $50.00 for the entire family to eat there. In Arkansas, now, it's around $30.00 and that's still a lot of money for fast food. Much cheaper to just cook at home.

 

[longview]

I cannot read the article, but wonder does the minimum wage apply to all workers,
or only Swiss workers? Could the low end jobs just be for non Swiss workers?
Ether way, I am glad they are conducting such an experiment with their economy
rather than than the US.

 

[Rainman05]

If they could automade McDonalds you don't think they'd do it no matter what the wage? Do you really think People dont' make use of Technology because wages are low? Common now.

That, and unions.

Why does industry from the USA and really all over the west move to china? Because unions are against automatization because that means some people lose their jobs. Less jobs, union bosses have less power to pressure politicians with and less money.


Also, to make something automated it is a bigger up front investment while if you hire people, while it may cost you in the long run more than that initial investment, you'll be making money as time goes on to cover your costs. This is not an uncommon business practice.

Let me put it in a more familiar way, to something I know is happening. So there is this thing on the internet called Saas = Software as a service. What that means is that if you are a company and you need a piece of software like excel (microsoft excel), so something that can work with reports, spreadsheets etc... but you don't want to buy a microsoft excel license because it's too expensive up front... so you "rent" a service from a company that does this which allows you to use a similar program for a monthly cost. Sure, in 1 year or so, you'd be spending more renting than that having to buy a license... but on the other hand, you're using that program for all that time, making money off of it while otherwise it may have taken you a bit more time to get a license for excel coz u didn't have the money. I don't know if this makes more sense to you but it does to me. So these are 2 of the main reasons why people resist automatization. Amortization of costs and unions wherever there are unions.

 

[RGacky3]

That, and unions.

Why does industry from the USA and really all over the west move to china? Because unions are against automatization because that means some people lose their jobs. Less jobs, union bosses have less power to pressure politicians with and less money.


Also, to make something automated it is a bigger up front investment while if you hire people, while it may cost you in the long run more than that initial investment, you'll be making money as time goes on to cover your costs. This is not an uncommon business practice.

Let me put it in a more familiar way, to something I know is happening. So there is this thing on the internet called Saas = Software as a service. What that means is that if you are a company and you need a piece of software like excel (microsoft excel), so something that can work with reports, spreadsheets etc... but you don't want to buy a microsoft excel license because it's too expensive up front... so you "rent" a service from a company that does this which allows you to use a similar program for a monthly cost. Sure, in 1 year or so, you'd be spending more renting than that having to buy a license... but on the other hand, you're using that program for all that time, making money off of it while otherwise it may have taken you a bit more time to get a license for excel coz u didn't have the money. I don't know if this makes more sense to you but it does to me. So these are 2 of the main reasons why people resist automatization. Amortization of costs and unions wherever there are unions.

Union's are against automatization? Where have unions in the US every actually stopped automatization? THey haven't ....

Industry moved from the US en masse in the late 1980s and the early 1990s ... the LOWEST POINT in union power up till the, Unions started being destroyed in the early 1980s.

Automization is easier for economies of scale (thus the whole idea of a free market being nonsense), so what ends up happening is if automization happens in one company, it's going to happen eventually industry wide, due to competition, and those who can't keep up get kicked out of the market, making it a larger barrier to entry into the industry as well as putting a downward pressure on wages.

This is simply the way Capitalism works.

But blaiming it on Unions is patently rediculous and the data simply don't add up.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I cannot read the article, but wonder does the minimum wage apply to all workers,
or only Swiss workers? Could the low end jobs just be for non Swiss workers?
Ether way, I am glad they are conducting such an experiment with their economy
rather than than the US.

Think $53,600 a year minimum salary.

A half-Swiss friend of mine when I did my master's in the late 80's used to go home during all the break's to work in the local supermarket rather than stay in London and take the offered work placements because he would make so much money packing shelves rather than designing and making products for industry.

As for the experiment - you need to visit Switzerland if you can afford it, streets are clean, air is good and the people are friendly and very civil. Costs are astronomical but they don't pay the same tax rates and most salaries are really high.

You need to read any German / Austrian / French articles on Switzerland with an eye on local envy of the Swiss but this BBC article is hopefully pretty neutral on the elements of the referendum.