10 yr old shot two weeks after 2 yr old

[DebateChallenge]

But it is still a goal worth achieving and a possibility.

A possibility? Only in your wildest wet pipe dream.

A goal worth achieving would be for the entire USA to have the same kind of gun laws as West Virginia.

 

[DebateChallenge]

It is not misuse, handguns are designed to kill people. They have no other valid use.

Hunting, target shooting.

 

[Rich2018]

Right but that doesn't mean that the NICS background check doesn't work, and there have in fact been new legislation put in place to try and help improve the NICS.

"The Fix NICS Act of 2017 is a United States federal law passed as part of the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2018 signed as Pub.L.115-141 by President Donald Trump on March 23, 2018. The law applies penalties to government agencies for not reporting to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."

Fix NICS Act of 2017 - Wikipedia.

The Department of Justice recently released its first report on the Fix NICS Act, finding,
"-There was an increase of over six million records in the three national databases searched with every NICS check – a 6.2 percent increase.

-The number of Firearm Retrieval Referrals (FRRs) – where a prohibited person is able to purchase a firearm because the background check could not be concluded within three business days due to incomplete records – decreased each month in comparison to the same month during the previous year, for an average monthly decline of 102 FRRs.

-With the exception of one month, there was an increase in the percentage of NICS checks resulting in an immediate determination – not requiring a delay for further research – compared to the previous year."

It's unreasonable to believe that any database is going to be flawless and work every time or that every government employee (in this case anyone responsible for inputting data into any of the databases under the NICS check) or even any employee in general is going to do their job to the T every time. But the NICS background check has served well since 1994. According to a study by the Department of Justice, between 1994 and 2014, federal, state, and local agencies conducted background checks on more than 180 million firearm applications and denied 2.82 million gun sales to prohibited purchasers. To date, the background check system has blocked over 3 million firearm sales to prohibited purchasers.

Source: Karberg JC, Frandsen RJ, Durso JM, et al. "Background Checks for Firearm Transfers, 2013-2014." Bureau of Justice Statistics. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/bcft1314st.pdf. Published June 2016. Accessed November 19, 2019.

There will be some cases where applicants possibly slip through the cracks, and I don't think we should just shrug that off either. Improvements should be made to improve the accuracy and efficiency of the NICS background system. But it is a Federal background check, like you called for.

Now could you please specify the loopholes you were referring to in your previous post?

Well had the database been truly national - the guy concerned wouldn't have got his gun and the shooting he was responsible for wouldn't have happened.

 

[Premium Paper]

Well had the database been truly national - the guy concerned wouldn't have got his gun and the shooting he was responsible for wouldn't have happened.

Dude I literally just gave you factual evidence and you're relying on one single anecdote for your entire argument. You're giving me a single lined response and expect that to be a good enough, empirically backed argument. I just conceded that the NICS background check isn't perfect. However, I provided to you empirical evidence about how it is being better enforced, specifically through the Fix NICS Act of 2017. On top of that I provided data from the report provided by the Department of Justice about the efficiency and affects of the Fix NICS Act. Don't try to argue with a single anecdote and then double down on the anecdote when your argument is contradicted by evidence.

Now once again I ask you, can you please specify the loopholes you were referring to in your original post that I quoted, or are we going to keep dodging around the question?

Not to mention the database IS "truly national". It's a federal background check. You legally cannot skip it anywhere in the United States and if you want to argue that go ahead, I'm ready to debate whatever it is you want to argue about regarding it.

 

[Premium Paper]

Hunting, target shooting.

I've never in my life seen a handgun be used for hunting, if we're being completely honest. A handgun would be a horrible choice of firearm to use for hunting game. It's inaccurate at mid - far distances and with big game doesn't produce nearly enough power to be efficient. Long rifles are used for hunting, not handguns. Target shooting however, yeah. I've gone to the range plenty of times with handguns for shooting targets.

 

[jaeger19]

Well had the database been truly national - the guy concerned wouldn't have got his gun and the shooting he was responsible for wouldn't have happened.

Not true.

 

[RF667799]

I've never in my life seen a handgun be used for hunting, if we're being completely honest. A handgun would be a horrible choice of firearm to use for hunting game. It's inaccurate at mid - far distances and with big game doesn't produce nearly enough power to be efficient. Long rifles are used for hunting, not handguns. Target shooting however, yeah. I've gone to the range plenty of times with handguns for shooting targets.

We had a special season just for handgun deer hunting. I believe that currently they have incorporated it into the muzzleloading season. Not sure though, since I haven't hunted in quite awhile.

 

[Premium Paper]

We had a special season just for handgun deer hunting. I believe that currently they have incorporated it into the muzzleloading season. Not sure though, since I haven't hunted in quite awhile.

Right, a special season but I ask you, for normal hunting, would you use a handgun, or a long gun? I highly suspect that most would use a long rifle for hunting deer over a pistol or revolver.

 

[RF667799]

Right, a special season but I ask you, for normal hunting, would you use a handgun, or a long gun? I highly suspect that most would use a long rifle for hunting deer over a pistol or revolver.

Depends on the personal choice of the person hunting. After all, some choose to use a bow or a crossbow. Obviously, enough use handguns that the laws reflect their use. Like I said, I think that handguns are now incorporated into the rest of the firearms season.

Hunting

Deer Hunting
•Legal Firearms
•Shotguns, loaded with slugs only, of not larger than 10 gauge nor smaller than 20 gauge, not capable of firing more than 3 consecutive slugs; or
•Single or double barreled muzzleloading rifles of at least .45 caliber shooting a single projectile through a barrel of at least sixteen inches in length; or
•Centerfire revolvers or centerfire single-shot handguns of .30 caliber or larger with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches.

 

[Premium Paper]

Depends on the personal choice of the person hunting. After all, some choose to use a bow or a crossbow. Obviously, enough use handguns that the laws reflect their use. Like I said, I think that handguns are now incorporated into the rest of the firearms season.

Hunting

No no I don't doubt that handguns aren't used, and looking online it doesn't appear to be that hunters are going out with standard Colt 1911s or Glock 17s. It appears as though if someone were to hunt with a handgun it'd be a specialty pistol, usually with a long barrel and a scope on it. Handguns like these aren't usually the one's found with a homeowner who may use handguns to defend themselves. My point being, the argument was made that handguns have other uses besides killing people, such as hunting and target shooting. My counter-argument focused on hunting, and that most pistols being used for self-defense aren't being used for hunting deer.

 

[RF667799]

No no I don't doubt that handguns aren't used, and looking online it doesn't appear to be that hunters are going out with standard Colt 1911s or Glock 17s. It appears as though if someone were to hunt with a handgun it'd be a specialty pistol, usually with a long barrel and a scope on it. Handguns like these aren't usually the one's found with a homeowner who may use handguns to defend themselves. My point being, the argument was made that handguns have other uses besides killing people, such as hunting and target shooting. My counter-argument focused on hunting, and that most pistols being used for self-defense aren't being used for hunting deer.

I can mostly agree that some handguns aren't particularly suited for hunting. However, I wouldn't say that all handguns used for hunting are specialty guns either. A regular old revolver like a K-frame .357 Mag would make an adequate hunting gun in my view, and has been widely employed as a self defense gun since it was first manufactured.

 

[Premium Paper]

I can mostly agree that some handguns aren't particularly suited for hunting. However, I wouldn't say that all handguns used for hunting are specialty guns either. A regular old revolver like a K-frame .357 Mag would make an adequate hunting gun in my view, and has been widely employed as a self defense gun since it was first manufactured.

Right, the .357 Mag has been used for both hunting and self defense, however my guess is that if it is being used for hunting, the .357 has a longer barrel and some sort of sight attached to it to make it useful for longer ranges, similar to the firearm pictured below.

More than likely, if it's being used in home defense, it at the least does not have the scope on it. I would be very hard pressed to believe that most handguns in general, if being used for hunting, are being used without any sort of longer range scope on it.

 

[jaeger19]

No no I don't doubt that handguns aren't used, and looking online it doesn't appear to be that hunters are going out with standard Colt 1911s or Glock 17s. It appears as though if someone were to hunt with a handgun it'd be a specialty pistol, usually with a long barrel and a scope on it. Handguns like these aren't usually the one's found with a homeowner who may use handguns to defend themselves. My point being, the argument was made that handguns have other uses besides killing people, such as hunting and target shooting. My counter-argument focused on hunting, and that most pistols being used for self-defense aren't being used for hunting deer.

Again not true. Handguns that are used in defense are also commonly used as hunting firearms. The .357 revolver.. the .44 revolver..

Even 9mm glocks are used in hunting.

Not to mention that tons of .22 pistols that are used for small game hunting..and are also used for defense.

 

[jaeger19]

Right, the .357 Magnum has been used for both hunting and self defense, however my guess is that if it is being used for hunting, the .357 has a longer barrel and some sort of sight attached to it to make it useful for longer ranges, similar to the firearm pictured below.



More than likely, if it's being used in home defense, it at the least does not have the scope on it.

Or not...



Sorry dude but this is one of those cases where you spoke without knowledge. Probably best to just admit you were wrong

 

[RF667799]

Right, the .357 Magnum has been used for both hunting and self defense, however my guess is that if it is being used for hunting, the .357 has a longer barrel and some sort of sight attached to it to make it useful for longer ranges.

Depends on the conditions. Also, a scope is an aid in sighting but it doesn't extend the ballistic capabilities of a handgun. I wouldn't be comfortable shooting at a deer beyond about 50 yards with a .357.. Indeed, in the types of areas I use to hunt, it would be exceptionally rare to even get an opportunity beyond that. I would feel quite comfortable with a six inch .357 Mod 19 within those 50 yards though. I would even prefer it to a scoped pistol. But then, I'm the guy who always refused to use sights on my hunting bow as well.

 

[Premium Paper]

Or not...

View attachment 67268471

Sorry dude but this is one of those cases where you spoke without knowledge. Probably best to just admit you were wrong

I don't know if I'm entirely wrong yet though. I haven't seen enough evidence (not that I've provided much either) to convince me that handguns are even commonly used for sporting, much less a standard pistol. I'm trying to find statistics on it as of now, however. I'm still continuing with my assumption that if a handgun were to be used in hunting, it would more commonly have a longer barrel and a scope on it.

 

[jaeger19]

Depends on the conditions. Also, a scope is an aid in sighting but it doesn't extend the ballistic capabilities of a handgun. I wouldn't be comfortable shooting at a deer beyond about 50 yards with a .357.. Indeed, in the types of areas I use to hunt, it would be exceptionally rare to even get an opportunity beyond that. I would feel quite comfortable with a six inch .357 Mod 19 within those 50 yards though. I would even prefer it to a scoped pistol. But then, I'm the guy who always refused to use sights on my hunting bow as well.

Just so folks know.. its common using the .357 to easily hit metal targets much smaller than deer out to 200 yards with open sights and production guns. Its called international metallic handgun silhouette. Shot it when I was 14 till 19.

My weapon was a .44 magnum with a 7 inch barrel. Which by the way I used for deer hunting.

 

[RF667799]

Just so folks know.. its common using the .357 to easily hit metal targets much smaller than deer out to 200 yards with open sights and production guns. Its called international metallic handgun silhouette. Shot it when I was 14 till 19.

My weapon was a .44 magnum with a 7 inch barrel. Which by the way I used for deer hunting.

I'll stick with 50 yards as my personal limit if I ever go hunting again. I tried silhouette in a class for .22 handguns once. I wasn't very good at it.

 

[RF667799]

I don't know if I'm entirely wrong yet though. I haven't seen enough evidence (not that I've provided much either) to convince me that handguns are even commonly used for sporting, much less a standard pistol. I'm trying to find statistics on it as of now, however. I'm still continuing with my assumption that if a handgun were to be used in hunting, it would more commonly have a longer barrel and a scope on it.

Even then it would still be a handgun and would not support the proposition that the only purpose of handguns is to kill people.

 

[jaeger19]

I don't know if I'm entirely wrong yet though. I haven't seen enough evidence (not that I've provided much either) to convince me that handguns are even commonly used for sporting, much less a standard pistol. I'm trying to find statistics on it as of now, however. I'm still continuing with my assumption that if a handgun were to be used in hunting, it would more commonly have a longer barrel and a scope on it.

And as said.. your assumption would be wrong. I easily showed a picture with a standard .357. and you are forgetting the numbers of small game hunted with handguns..

I think you also are making the wrong assumption about what handguns are used for defense. The reality is that most people use whatever handgun they have available for defense.
and often.. the handgun they use for defense? Is also the handgun they use for plinking and for hunting..

Be it the .357 with a 5-6 inch barrel..

Or the .22 browning, they carry when they go rabbit hunting.

.

 

[jaeger19]

I'll stick with 50 yards as my personal limit if I ever go hunting again. I tried silhouette in a class for .22 handguns once. I wasn't very good at it.

:2wave: no worries.

I just had flashbacks to a fellow I knew in college who when he found out I owned and shot firearms.. said "well I shoot to"...then he asked what I owned and I told him I had a .44 magnum in a ruger superblackhawk and he said "so that goes what.. like 50 yards"...

And I stated that I routinely knocked over silhouettes at 200 meters. and he announced to all those around that I was " a liar"...because handguns couldn't go that far.

This premium paper reminds me of that guy.

 

[Premium Paper]

Even then it would still be a handgun and would not support the proposition that the only purpose of handguns is to kill people.

I didn't make that claim either. The claim I would make is that the most common use for handguns is for self-defense and target shooting, not deer hunting. I'm looking at a website now that talks about deer hunting and different factors to consider for what weapon you should choose for deer hunting and it doesn't even mention hand guns of any sort.

6 Factors in Weapon Choice for Deer Firearms Season | Bone Collector

This one here does mention handguns, and supports my original idea that if one were to use a handgun, it'd generally have a scope on it.
"When using a handgun, hunters should choose a firearm that has an optical sight or adjustable iron sights. Using a handgun for hunting is often a good idea when the land is rugged and a hunter may need both hands for climbing or maneuvering through the terrain."

Types of Hunting - Gun, Bow, Muzzleloader - American Hunting Lease Association

When getting these websites I searched for "what types of weapons are commonly used in hunting"

Wikipedia also mentions my distinctions between a handgun used for hunting and a handgun used for personal defense,
"Hunting handguns differ from defensive handguns in a number of ways; hunting handguns usually have longer barrels, better sights (often mounting telescopic sights or red dot sights), and, depending on the game, will fire a much more powerful cartridge."

Hunting weapon - Wikipedia

So no, I still don't believe my arguments are wrong.

 

[Premium Paper]

:2wave: no worries.

I just had flashbacks to a fellow I knew in college who when he found out I owned and shot firearms.. said "well I shoot to"...then he asked what I owned and I told him I had a .44 magnum in a ruger superblackhawk and he said "so that goes what.. like 50 yards"...

And I stated that I routinely knocked over silhouettes at 200 meters. and he announced to all those around that I was " a liar"...because handguns couldn't go that far.

This premium paper reminds me of that guy.

Except I didn't claim that handguns couldn't be used for hunting, nor that you were lying. I will concede that handguns can be used for mid-far range hunting, but, as I've shown before through various websites, they generally have a longer barrel and a scope.

Here's another website that mentions handguns for hunting. I'll quote the important part for you and bold what corresponds to my arguments.

"Some hunters add scopes or red-dot sights to their handguns when hunting. This can help make them more accurate. Most handguns used for hunting are designed specifically for it or for target shooting. These models have longer, heavier barrels to improve accuracy."

Hunting Weapons 101 Gander Outdoors

Edit: Look you guys can keep making arguments from your own personal anecdotes but that isn't going to persuade me into believing what you're saying. Saying that you've used a handgun with no scope on it or heavier barrel isn't going to make me believe that handguns that have no scope or heavier barrel are commonly used for hunting. I've provided three websites that mention handguns for hunting. All of them mention that the handguns that are being used for hunting more than likely will have either a heavier barrel, a telescopic scope/red dot sight, or both (both a scope and a heavier barrel).

 

[RF667799]

I didn't make that claim either. The claim I would make is that the most common use for handguns is for self-defense and target shooting, not deer hunting. I'm looking at a website now that talks about deer hunting and different factors to consider for what weapon you should choose for deer hunting and it doesn't even mention hand guns of any sort.

6 Factors in Weapon Choice for Deer Firearms Season | Bone Collector

This one here does mention handguns, and supports my original idea that if one were to use a handgun, it'd generally have a scope on it.
"When using a handgun, hunters should choose a firearm that has an optical sight or adjustable iron sights. Using a handgun for hunting is often a good idea when the land is rugged and a hunter may need both hands for climbing or maneuvering through the terrain."

Types of Hunting - Gun, Bow, Muzzleloader - American Hunting Lease Association

When getting these websites I searched for "what types of weapons are commonly used in hunting"

Wikipedia also mentions my distinctions between a handgun used for hunting and a handgun used for personal defense,
"Hunting handguns differ from defensive handguns in a number of ways; hunting handguns usually have longer barrels, better sights (often mounting telescopic sights or red dot sights), and, depending on the game, will fire a much more powerful cartridge."

Hunting weapon - Wikipedia

So no, I still don't believe my arguments are wrong.

I agree that handgun hunting isn't as popular as hunting with a rifle or shotgun. Bowhunting isn't either. Those are more difficult disciplines being one reason.

 

[RF667799]

:2wave: no worries.

I just had flashbacks to a fellow I knew in college who when he found out I owned and shot firearms.. said "well I shoot to"...then he asked what I owned and I told him I had a .44 magnum in a ruger superblackhawk and he said "so that goes what.. like 50 yards"...

And I stated that I routinely knocked over silhouettes at 200 meters. and he announced to all those around that I was " a liar"...because handguns couldn't go that far.

This premium paper reminds me of that guy.

When I was in my early 20's, I went camping along with three friends on an isolated stretch of the Mississippi River. There was a channel marker buoy about 300 yards offshore. By the end of the weekend, all of us could pretty consistently bang on that buoy with every pistol we had in camp. I myself had a 6" S&W K22 Masterpiece, a 6" S&W Mod 19 and an Ortgies pistol in .32 ACP. I don't remember what the other guys had except one Ruger Mark-whatever .22.