Why do conversations about trans people turn into discussions of kids genitals? (Almost always boys genitals)

[Fearandloathing]

Full disclosure this is a serious thread and a serious issue. I'm not pointing fingers in anyone's directions but it's something that dawned on me the other day.

In one of my classes we were discussing using people's pronouns and gender identity. This went on for about 45 minutes until someone brought up young boys genitals as a reason they shouldn't be allowed near girls if parents aren't around. The class then proceed to spend the next hour or so on this discussion. This discussion was had by a classroom of 95% cis-people and 5% trans. For those curious, I don't talk about trans issues in front of cis people because I've had a supervisor at my work openly talk about he is a "biological male" because he has a penis (in front of children no less). It dawned on me that this isn't the first time that I've seen this. For years this has been a reoccurring issue. It seems whenever discussions about trans people pop up, people inevitably start discussing kids' genitals like they deserve to know what they are. mean here is Mike Huckabee talking about how he would do very bad things to girls as a teenage boy:

10:30


While I'm sure there are trans people who talk about kids genitals, at least in my personal experience it always starts with cis people talking about kids and their genitals. Does anyone else see this happening?

I have a few 'trans' friends. The closest I have ever come to any form of conversation on genitals was my statement "I forget you have different plumbing", which my friend took as a compliment.

In the late 70's I made friends with a fellow broadcaster in Montreal who had the greatest 'radio voice' in creation. I came west several years later and hear he was, but had 'come out' as gay.
Years later, at an AA function I woman walked up to me leaving me confused until "she" spoke, in that awesomely recognizable voice. 25 years had passed but they were still the same, kind, generous and giving person they always were.

 

[PoliticalDJ101]

Except it's not intuitive. We know that children don't have a solid grasp on gender until they're about 6 or so. I'm more curious did the child actually use the words "penis and vagina"?

It was a child not much older than 6. Yes those were the child's words. There is a certain age for children's when interest in the difference between men and women increases and they eventually intuitively understand the importance of the differences. They even naturally separate themselves in play by biological sex.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

It was a child not much older than 6. Yes those were the child's words. There is a certain age for children's when interest in the difference between men and women increases and they eventually intuitively understand the importance of the differences. They even naturally separate themselves in play by biological sex.

good parenting whoever taught the kid penis and vagina. As for my experiences with talking to kids about trans issues I've never seen that come up. They usually just go whether they're a boy or a girl, not connecting genitals. Even then, they're not connecting biological sex, just genitals.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Why not simply shut them down with a good argument? Trying to disingenuously make them sound like pedos doesn't do your argument any justice. It just looks like you are deflecting and taking the argument to the person.

Meanwhile: A big part of being trans involves possibly surgery (depending on individual choice). What do you suppose they do surgery on? How are you going to talk about reassignment or hormone therapy san's genitals? If it isn't about genitals largely, why all the need for hiding and suppressing what you were born with? Be honest genitals are part of the conversation.
If you did not have the wrong genitals, you would not be trans. If you refuse to mention that reality then no one will hear your plight.

But then you led with stereotyping people that you disagree with. I get that the far right are a bunch of assholes, and say insanely stupid shit. They are a loud minority. Most people are pretty chill about trans. Because we respect other peoples decisions (unlike them). I really do not care what adults do to their bodies.

Kids though cannot make a choice about something that has not even developed yet. In all cases of trans medical procedures involving kids, it was the adults who made the decision; not the kids. In every situation except this one ethics dictates that minors brains have not developed enough to consent. The burden of consent for medical procedures is on their parents or guardians. That is the elephant in the room and the reason that many see an agenda.

This isn't an argument. This is just something I've seen in discussions with cisgender people about transgender topics. I almost always see them talking about children's genitals eventually. I as a trans woman almost never have those discussions. When it comes to talking about how to help trans kids we focus on getting them community and teaching them pride. But when cis people do it it comes down to their genitals. I don't know why and it confuses me.

Excellent OP.

The transphobes are obsessed with people's genitals, including children's genitals. They want to regulate and control these genitalia. Yes, that's as creepy as it sounds. Whatever happened to PRIVATE parts?

Here's the thing though. I don't think it's just the transphobes though it's far more blatant with them. I think even cis allies do it. It confuses me a lot because even when they're supportive it seems to pop up. The guy I mentioned from the OP? He spent 20 or so minutes defending trans people before shifting the conversation to children's genitals.

Well, that makes sense to me. What would most people think of if asked to define "he." You can't tell me that most people won't instantly think of genitals.

By the way, I don't wish to enter into the discussion about pronouns.

Genitals!=all genitals. I'm talking about mentioning children's genitals specifically. For example the class I mention in my OP? A cisgender man started talking about how 12 year old boys are going to sexually assault girls if they're left alone with them because "of hormones". I'm not looking for a debate. I'm just trying to understand the turn conversations take towards children's genitals.

"It's none of your ****ing business!"

ABOUT ****ING TIME!!!!

I know but the cis be like this lol.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

I want to know where you were and what you were generally doing and talking about when the topic came up. At work? At the grocery store? At lunch with friends? Did someone apropos of nothing just suddenly bring up kids' genitals?

This was a classroom setting where the conversation was about how language creates forces that can change the world. Standard priest marrying people in a wedding vs marrying people randomly on a street discussion. That sort of thing. The conversation was whether or not it's etiquette or a moral imperative to use pronouns. I can't remember the exact context but someone started talking about how she didn't trust her daughter with boys. Then someone pipped up the reason being due to genitals.

 

[PoliticalDJ101]

good parenting whoever taught the kid penis and vagina. As for my experiences with talking to kids about trans issues I've never seen that come up. They usually just go whether they're a boy or a girl, not connecting genitals. Even then, they're not connecting biological sex, just genitals.

Children should be taught what their body parts are called and the difference between sexes. That's called education (and only parents should be educating on these matters, not teachers). You can't just avoid teaching this to your kids to avoid allowing them to understand the difference between the sexes.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Children should be taught what their body parts are called and the difference between sexes. That's called education (and only parents should be educating on these matters, not teachers). You can't just avoid teaching this to your kids to avoid allowing them to understand the difference between the sexes.

They should be taught about their body yes. But in terms of sex? No. That's not how kids understand gender. We know this because kids gender things that don't have a sex. Last time I checked stuffed animals aren't anatomically correct. Yet if you ask a kid what their favorite stuffed animal is then they'll tell you all about them, including their gender.

 

[Lisa]

Children should be taught what their body parts are called and the difference between sexes. That's called education (and only parents should be educating on these matters, not teachers). You can't just avoid teaching this to your kids to avoid allowing them to understand the difference between the sexes.

Most parents are neither willing or able to teach a child a necessary knowledge of sex education, so the state does it t so there is a basic scientifically accurate knowledge of the subject to allow the child or teen to make the best informed decisions when they become sexually active.

 

[nota bene]

They should be taught about their body yes. But in terms of sex? No. That's not how kids understand gender. We know this because kids gender things that don't have a sex. Last time I checked stuffed animals aren't anatomically correct. Yet if you ask a kid what their favorite stuffed animal is then they'll tell you all about them, including their gender.

Well, I refer to various houseplants by gender, but it's strictly arbitrary. Whether it's a plant or a stuffed animal, this isn't the same as "gendering" people.

 

[CLAX1911]

If someone needs tio be trained to be a boy or a girl that is a very clear sing that there are deepens problems that are not addressed. Those should come natural.

They don't need to be trained to be a boy or a girl they're born that way. Ed hot boys and girls act in society. I'm speaking more about the social training which I believe in is all that there is to gender.

When you say sex are you referring to biologi9cal characteristics of the body, or the act of reproduction?

Biological sex. If I'm referring to sexual intercourse I will say intercourse from now on so there's no confusion.

Sex is far more than genitals and I have never once said otherwise.

Right, but there is it to certain type of genitals associated with a sex. Females have vaginas and males have penises. That's not to say that that's all there is because even with clothes on the sexes are dimorphic. But there is no exception to this if you have a penis you're born with one your male you'll die male.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Well, I refer to various houseplants by gender, but it's strictly arbitrary. Whether it's a plant or a stuffed animal, this isn't the same as "gendering" people.

Is it though? I mean do you know what is in other person's pants or do you just gender that person based on how they look?

 

[CLAX1911]

Your posts:








See OP for examples. If you don't believe me then see Post 114 for an example from DP.

So where was I talking about genitals?

I don't believe that an OP is correct.

Pretending there are problems that there really aren't as standard thing with a lot of people.

You seem to think people are talking about genitals when you're not so I think you probably are interpreting something that isn't there.

 

[Opossum]

Full disclosure this is a serious thread and a serious issue. I'm not pointing fingers in anyone's directions but it's something that dawned on me the other day.

In one of my classes we were discussing using people's pronouns and gender identity. This went on for about 45 minutes until someone brought up young boys genitals as a reason they shouldn't be allowed near girls if parents aren't around. The class then proceed to spend the next hour or so on this discussion. This discussion was had by a classroom of 95% cis-people and 5% trans. For those curious, I don't talk about trans issues in front of cis people because I've had a supervisor at my work openly talk about he is a "biological male" because he has a penis (in front of children no less). It dawned on me that this isn't the first time that I've seen this. For years this has been a reoccurring issue. It seems whenever discussions about trans people pop up, people inevitably start discussing kids' genitals like they deserve to know what they are. mean here is Mike Huckabee talking about how he would do very bad things to girls as a teenage boy:

10:30


While I'm sure there are trans people who talk about kids genitals, at least in my personal experience it always starts with cis people talking about kids and their genitals. Does anyone else see this happening?

Probs because people don't want dicks in the locker room with their daughters. Pretty simple and reasonable.

 

[CLAX1911]

Just when you could have educated yourself.

No education comes from John Oliver except for how to be a failure at comedy.

 

[nota bene]

Is it though? I mean do you know what is in other person's pants or do you just gender that person based on how they look?

First (see the comic strip "Calvin and Hobbes"), I don't like the verbing of nouns. But if you're asking if I assign or guess gender based on outward appearance, I would say yes, that if I walk down the street and see someone dressed as woman, my auto-assumption as I walk by is that this is a woman unless it's obvious that it's a trans-man, and sadly, it very often is. And so what? If I see someone of another race or nationality (or assume that I do) and take note of hair or skin color or manner of dress, this doesn't mean I'm making a judgment, only that I'm doing what the human brain does, which is to process--to identify and catalague. And so what if I do what every other person on the planet does?

 

[Scatty Kitty]

So where was I talking about genitals?

I don't believe that an OP is correct.

Pretending there are problems that there really aren't as standard thing with a lot of people.

You seem to think people are talking about genitals when you're not so I think you probably are interpreting something that isn't there.

Your first post in the thread was about sex.

Probs because people don't want dicks in the locker room with their daughters. Pretty simple and reasonable.

So the reason cisgender people bring up childrens' genitals is because they want to protect them? How so?

First (see the comic strip "Calvin and Hobbes"), I don't like the verbing of nouns. But if you're asking if I assign or guess gender based on outward appearance, I would say yes, that if I walk down the street and see someone dressed as woman, my auto-assumption as I walk by is that this is a woman unless it's obvious that it's a trans-man, and sadly, it very often is. And so what? If I see someone of another race or nationality (or assume that I do) and take note of hair or skin color or manner of dress, this doesn't mean I'm making a judgment, only that I'm doing what the human brain does, which is to process--to identify and catalague. And so what if I do what every other person on the planet does?

I have a couple of Calvin and Hobbes books. Not as good as I remember. I think I grew out of Sunday Morning comics. As for gender as a verb? Yeah it can be a verb. If you don't know something you can google it. Google is a verb and a noun. They're called gerunds. The reason I bring this up is because you're basing a person's gender off of their physical appearance and what you see. But you don't see genitals so you can't possibly be gendering someone based off of their genitals. So there's no need to discuss a person's genitals, because we don't gender on them. We gender using different criteria. So what's the point in bringing up genitals if we don't use them then?

 

[CLAX1911]

Your first post in the thread was about sex.

Do you think sex is nothing but genitals?

So the reason cisgender people bring up childrens' genitals

They don't. The sex of a child would say you what kind of genitals they have but it's not just talking about genitals so you're lying. That doesn't happen.

Any question you ask about this is a loaded question because I don't accept your lie

I have a couple of Calvin and Hobbes books. Not as good as I remember. I think I grew out of Sunday Morning comics. As for gender as a verb? Yeah it can be a verb. If you don't know something you can google it. Google is a verb and a noun. They're called gerunds. The reason I bring this up is because you're basing a person's gender off of their physical appearance and what you see.

Gender is absolutely physical appearance. It's the clothes you wear your hairstyle currently whether or not you wear makeup but that seems to be changing. Show me that it's anything beyond that keeping your mind how you've perceived is based on your appearance

But you don't see genitals so you can't possibly be gendering someone based off of their genitals.

Wait are we talking about gender or sex? Or are we using them as synonyms in this context?

You can tell someone sex without seeing their genitals because sexes in our species are dimorphic that means that males and females are not identical other than genitals.

So there's no need to discuss a person's genitals,

You are the only one doing that.

because we don't gender on them. We gender using different criteria. So what's the point in bringing up genitals if we don't use them then?

Yeah so if I see a man even if they're trying real hard to look like a woman I can still tell they are a man based on different criteria without seeing their genitals.

This isn't a complicated skill it's one children learn before they even go to school.

 

[CLAX1911]

First (see the comic strip "Calvin and Hobbes"), I don't like the verbing of nouns. But if you're asking if I assign or guess gender based on outward appearance, I would say yes, that if I walk down the street and see someone dressed as woman, my auto-assumption as I walk by is that this is a woman unless it's obvious that it's a trans-man, and sadly, it very often is. And so what? If I see someone of another race or nationality (or assume that I do) and take note of hair or skin color or manner of dress, this doesn't mean I'm making a judgment, only that I'm doing what the human brain does, which is to process--to identify and catalague. And so what if I do what every other person on the planet does?

This is why I don't think this is about rights anymore. I support equal rights. I want transgender people to have 100% the same rights as everyone else.

I think this is a battle about how you think.

If I see a person in a dress and they're six foot three with broad shoulders and narrow hips. And look freshly shaved. I would refer to that person that as ma'am because they are trying. And I don't want to cause them any distress. That and if they look this way they're very grateful for you recognizing their effort. But I can't think of that person as a woman they're not. And that is why I'm told I'm transphobic because I don't believe the lie.

I know this may sound a little bit strange but that's an attempt to control thought. Controlling what you say is controlling how you think.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Do you think sex is nothing but genitals?

Post 79:

Do people ask you about your genitals? Are these people possibly romantically interested. I could understand a man see a woman and asks if she's really a woman. I'm a gay guy. And if I was dating a guy that told me he was trans I couldn't be interested because that's a woman to me. A man with a vagina is not a concept that computes with me. Call me all the names you want that won't make it compute. Penis means man box means woman. Sorry. It's my limitation.

But other than that is have no interest in your genitals. Unless they are going in my mouth I don't care.

They don't. The sex of a child would say you what kind of genitals they have but it's not just talking about genitals so you're lying. That doesn't happen.

Any question you ask about this is a loaded question because I don't accept your lie

I've already shown it happening. Post 114.

Gender is absolutely physical appearance. It's the clothes you wear your hairstyle currently whether or not you wear makeup but that seems to be changing. Show me that it's anything beyond that keeping your mind how you've perceived is based on your appearance

No, you're thinking of gender appearance. Gender is a mental state. Gender appearance is how one presents themselves physically.

Wait are we talking about gender or sex? Or are we using them as synonyms in this context?

You can tell someone sex without seeing their genitals because sexes in our species are dimorphic that means that males and females are not identical other than genitals.

I don't think you know what I'm talking about here. Genitals is part of the reproductive system, and commonly referred to as sex. Gender is a mental state. The whole conversation we're having is about how physical states and mental states mix together. You can't tell what a person has simply by looking at them. There are more genetic differences within a sex then across.

You are the only one doing that.

I'm not asking you to watch the video but Mike Huckabee was talking about how he wanted to sexually harass women in the bathroom. All you have to do is look at the time skip to 10:23. Or so I can't remember on the top of my head. Also Post 114.

Yeah so if I see a man even if they're trying real hard to look like a woman I can still tell they are a man based on different criteria without seeing their genitals.

I don't think you can. Mostly because the guy in the OP who openly talked about his genitals in front of children never realized I am trans. And he said a lot of transphobic things to my face.

This isn't a complicated skill it's one children learn before they even go to school.

Do they? If so then why does it need to be taught and instilled in them that it's not okay to cross boundaries? My nephew (bless his heart) refused to put on nail polish to help him stop biting his finger nails because "that's what girls do". It doesn't sound like a skill, it just sounds like he is afraid and unable to process his feelings towards gender.

 

[CLAX1911]

Post 79:

Is that a yes

I've already shown it happening. Post 114.

You lied about me doing it so I presume you lie about other people doing it.

No, you're thinking of gender appearance. Gender is a mental state. Gender appearance is how one presents themselves physically.

Gender is appearance. Nobody should have pretended that it's a mental state that's a downward spiral into self-destruction.

I don't think you know what I'm talking about here. Genitals is part of the reproductive system, and commonly referred to as sex. Gender is a mental state.

I don't accept the claim that it's a mental state. Gender is appearance. If it's a mental state then trans people can't possibly be misgendered because nobody can know their mental state.

Think about what you're saying

The whole conversation we're having is about how physical states and mental states mix together.

No it's more like how they conflict. Trans means across or in opposition to something. So if you're transgendered and I were to buy into your mental state your mental state is in opposition to your physical appearance. You can't change your physical appearance.

You can't tell what a person has simply by looking at them.

Then how is my average so high?

There are more genetic differences within a sex then across.

That would be true if humans weren't a sexually dimorphic species they are.

I'm not asking you to watch the video but Mike Huckabee was talking about how he wanted to sexually harass women in the bathroom. All you have to do is look at the time skip to 10:23. Or so I can't remember on the top of my head. Also Post 114.

I don't have to do anything. If you can't make your appointment without me watching your video you don't get to make your point.

Find a better way.

I don't think you can. Mostly because the guy in the OP who openly talked about his genitals in front of children never realized I am trans. And he said a lot of transphobic things to my face.

I'm sorry that happened to you. But I can tell because humans are sexually dimorphic species. And that I mean there are more differences than just genitals. Sorry about this reality but it is

Do they?

Yes

If so then why does it need to be taught and instilled in them that it's not okay to cross boundaries?

When they can understand the boundary and how to respect it. It's different for different things.

My nephew (bless his heart) refused to put on nail polish to help him stop biting his finger nails because "that's what girls do". It doesn't sound like a skill, it just sounds like he is afraid and unable to process his feelings towards gender.

Maybe he doesn't want to be perceived as being girly. Painting fingernails for whatever reason is socially constructed currently in our society would be associated with women and girls.

This is social skill. I know it may not seem like one because it's rather benign, but it's not in his social world.

I'm the only reason he thinks that this is associated with girls it's because he learned from the other kids that are his peers.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Is that a yes

You lied about me doing it so I presume you lie about other people doing it.

You literally did it. I don't know what box means to you but I don't think being a woman means you have a box.

Gender is appearance. Nobody should have pretended that it's a mental state that's a downward spiral into self-destruction.

I don't accept the claim that it's a mental state. Gender is appearance. If it's a mental state then trans people can't possibly be misgendered because nobody can know their mental state.

Think about what you're saying

No it's more like how they conflict. Trans means across or in opposition to something. So if you're transgendered and I were to buy into your mental state your mental state is in opposition to your physical appearance. You can't change your physical appearance.

Yeah what you're referring to is known as the problem from the philosophical zombie. It's one of if not the key foundation behind psychology. As for how we can know that's not very hard to realize. We know how people feel. I mean we have a song about it. "If you're happy and you know it clap your hands".

Then how is my average so high?

That makes no sense.

That would be true if humans weren't a sexually dimorphic species they are.

I worked with biologists and biology teachers. Not one of them would say that.

I don't have to do anything. If you can't make your appointment without me watching your video you don't get to make your point.

That's right, you don't have to do anything. If you're not going to discuss the topic, please continue to do nothing.

Find a better way.

I did. Post 114 where someone did exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm sorry that happened to you. But I can tell because humans are sexually dimorphic species. And that I mean there are more differences than just genitals. Sorry about this reality but it is

It's not though.

Yes

When they can understand the boundary and how to respect it. It's different for different things.

Maybe he doesn't want to be perceived as being girly. Painting fingernails for whatever reason is socially constructed currently in our society would be associated with women and girls.

This is social skill. I know it may not seem like one because it's rather benign, but it's not in his social world.

I'm the only reason he thinks that this is associated with girls it's because he learned from the other kids that are his peers.

Being scared and unable to talk about something is a social skill? That doesn't sound like a skill but a safety mechanism.

 

[CLAX1911]

You literally did it. I don't know what box means to you but I don't think being a woman means you have a box.

It was in reference to sex. Sorry genitals conform to sex.

Yeah what you're referring to is known as the problem from the philosophical zombie. It's one of if not the key foundation behind psychology. As for how we can know that's not very hard to realize. We know how people feel. I mean we have a song about it. "If you're happy and you know it clap your hands".

All you can know about how people feel is how they tell you they feel. So you can't really know they can lie they can be unable to put it into words.

I don't know what any of this has to do with gender as a mental state.

That makes no sense

How is it that I can determine someone's sex based on appearance while wearing clothing with 99.9% accuracy?

I worked with biologists and biology teachers. Not one of them would say that.

I suspect this is a lie.

That's right, you don't have to do anything. If you're not going to discuss the topic, please continue to do nothing.

If the topic is something you can articulate but was not to because you want to trick me into watching a video, I never was part of that discussion and I never did anything regarding it.

I did. Post 114 where someone did exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm not going back and looking I just don't care enough.

It's not though.

Okay show me all men and women looking exactly the same other than and then you'll be right.

Being scared and unable to talk about something is a social skill? That doesn't sound like a skill but a safety mechanism.

You described a child not wanting you to polish his fingernails, not one unable to talk about something because he's afraid.

So I have no idea what you're talking about being scared of or who's being scared and of what.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

It was in reference to sex. Sorry genitals conform to sex.

All you can know about how people feel is how they tell you they feel. So you can't really know they can lie they can be unable to put it into words.

I don't know what any of this has to do with gender as a mental state.

How is it that I can determine someone's sex based on appearance while wearing clothing with 99.9% accuracy?

I suspect this is a lie.

If the topic is something you can articulate but was not to because you want to trick me into watching a video, I never was part of that discussion and I never did anything regarding it.

I'm not going back and looking I just don't care enough.

Okay show me all men and women looking exactly the same other than and then you'll be right.

You described a child not wanting you to polish his fingernails, not one unable to talk about something because he's afraid.

So I have no idea what you're talking about being scared of or who's being scared and of what.

If you don't care enough to do basic due diligence then you are not furthering the discussion. Thank you for your contribution.

 

[CLAX1911]

If you don't care enough to do basic due diligence then you are not furthering the discussion. Thank you for your contribution.

If it's incumbent upon me to do the due diligence so you can have an argument you can't discuss in the first place.

I shouldn't have to leave her at all for you to make your point if you had a point you'd make it.

That's a shame you're storming off because I won't watch your video but you do you.

 

[PoliticalDJ101]

They should be taught about their body yes. But in terms of sex? No. That's not how kids understand gender. We know this because kids gender things that don't have a sex. Last time I checked stuffed animals aren't anatomically correct. Yet if you ask a kid what their favorite stuffed animal is then they'll tell you all about them, including their gender.

According to this site, kids start learning boys bodies are different than girls around age 2 or 3

Developmental Stages of Gender in Young Children

Gender is established early in life. According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, most children have a stable sense of their gender by age four.

www.reimaginegender.org