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You can't prove that there's not a God!

watsup

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That's the claim fairly constantly made by Sherlock and the other theists, especially when challenged to come up with evidence for their particular "God". So let's take a little deeper look. The following information is from "Introduction to Philosophy", an online textbook by Philip A. Pecorino, Ph, D, Professor of Philosophy, Queensborough Community College, CUNY. The article is titled BURDEN OF PROOF and here are some of the key points:

"Most people as young children appear to have a “commonsense” understanding of the burden of proof. When young people hear a claim being made and it is, in their minds and experience, an extraordinary claim being made, quite often the response is one of asking for something to support the claim. The most common retorts are along the line of “Prove it”, “What makes you say that”, “Sow me” or something like “Oh, yeah?”. Somewhere along the way too many humans lose that sense and too often suspend their inclination to accept the principles underlying the “Burden of Proof”."

It would behoove those engaged in debate to forego the "prove it" bit in debate unless mathematics is the subject. Other than that, the key to support of any statement or entity is EVIDENCE. "Prove it" is more of a fifth grade taunt than it is serious debate.

"The burden of proof is always on the claim that X exists rather than on the claim that X does not exist. It is a fallacy to claim that X exists unless you prove that there is no X. What is improper is for a person to claim that "X exists" and when asked to prove it, then the person who made the claim uses as a defense of "X exists" the next claim that no one has proven that X does not exist."

Sound familiar, theists?

Read the entire two paragraphs below, don't just stop after the last sentence of the first paragraph. The second follows the first for full understanding:

"If a person claims that X exists and is real then the burden is on that person to supply some support for that claim, some evidence or proof that others can and should examine before accepting it. It is incorrect to think that X exists and is real until someone can prove that there is no X. It is also wrong to think that just because you can not prove that X exists that does not mean that X does not exist and therefore X does exist.

Why is it that the burden is on the person who makes the claim? Well think whether or not it is a better way to proceed through life to accept anything and everything that people claim to be so. Experience should instruct every thinking human that there is a high probability that not everything that people claim to be true is actually true . Some claims might be made with the claimant aware that the claim is not true and some claims might be made with the claimant thinking that they are true but being mistaken (side note: that is Trump defined, especially the first phrase) . As it is for most humans not a very good idea to proceed through life based on beliefs that are false and thinking things to be true when they are not, most humans and those who would use reason to guide them will want some evidence and reasoning to support a claim being asserted to be true. So the burden is on those who make claims to offer reason and evidence in support of those claims."


Last sentence: SO THE BURDEN IS ON THOSE WHO MAKE CLAIMS TO OFFER REASON AND EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF THOSE CLAIMS. Positive claims, that is.
So please, theists, acknowledge that the BURDEN OF PROOF is on you to show evidence for your God and not on the atheist to "prove" that there is no such entity.

For more: https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/intro_text/chapter 3 religion/Burden-of-Proof.htm

Very interesting article and should be required reading for those interested in participating in RATIONAL debat



 
There is no evidence for or against some form of God. Lack of evidence is not evidence to the contrary.
 
There is no evidence for or against some form of God. Lack of evidence is not evidence to the contrary.
The null hypothesis is no god exists that can be shown to exist, since it makes the least number of unfalsifiable premises.
 
True.
You can't prove that something doesn't exist.

Is there proof Leprechauns don't exist?
Is there proof Orc's don't exist?

The only thing you can say is that there is no proof those things do exist.

Nothing wrong with that.
 
There is no evidence for or against some form of God. Lack of evidence is not evidence to the contrary.

Lack of evidence in the case of a God, wood fairies, or Santa Claus leads to the logical conclusion that no such entity actually exists.
 
"For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable." Romans 1:20
 
"For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable." Romans 1:20

The universe is not evidence of a God. The universe is only evidence of the universe, per se.
 
Lack of evidence in the case of a God, wood fairies, or Santa Claus leads to the logical conclusion that no such entity actually exists.

Lack of evidence is not evidence to the contrary. Your suggestion that a lack of evidence implies that some form of God doesn't exist is illogical.
 
The null hypothesis is no god exists that can be shown to exist, since it makes the least number of unfalsifiable premises.

I think it's kind of weak to try to fight for one being more or less plausible than the other. We are talking about what is currently unknowable. It's arrogant for a person to believe they know the unknowable either way. In that way theists and atheists/anti-theists are very similar.
 
NASB - generally judged to be the most accurate English translation of the Hebrew and Greek text

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
 
I think it's kind of weak to try to fight for one being more or less plausible than the other. We are talking about what is currently unknowable. It's arrogant for a person to believe they know the unknowable either way. In that way theists and atheists are very similar.
Not really. There is no legitimate scientific purpose for introducing a god and trying to explain how it interacts with the universe and other conjecture about it's physical composition or whether it only exists interdimensionally, etc. None of those things can be tested or investigated with the current evidence on offer, and when we try, it doesn't matter what excuse the theist comes up with, for all intents and purposes of learning useful knowledge and constructing accurate models of our universe, this alleged god might even as well not exist. So you assume it doesn't until evidence comes along that can falsify or support the hypothesis.
 
The universe is not evidence of a God. The universe is only evidence of the universe, per se.
Right...let me give you a scenario...suppose you are driving down the road...and there's a sign that says “Detour-Turn Left” but you don't see it...a police officer stops you and starts writing you a ticket...you try to argue that you did not see the sign but your words mean little to the officer because the sign is in plain view and there is nothing wrong with your vision...besides, as a driver, you have the responsibility for seeing and heeding such signs...it is the same with the evidence of God in nature...that “sign” is in plain view...as reasoning creatures, as you like to say, we are capable of reasoning on this matter/seeing it...there is no excuse for ignoring it...
 
Read the entire two paragraphs below, don't just stop after the last sentence of the first paragrap
We're only human.

I have never grasped, why atheists think I should care what they want.

I suspect they just want me to waste time on them. They're insistent on wasting time. If they're so intelligent they should understand that life is short. They're not even looking forward to an afterlife. For atheists, it's death and then nothing — forever. It is beyond me why someone like that would want to argue about the afterlife...unless they have doubts..

The uncertainty of an atheist sounds like a nightmare, doesn't it?
 
NASB - generally judged to be the most accurate English translation of the Hebrew and Greek text

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Which means exactly the same... :rolleyes:
 
Not really. There is no legitimate scientific purpose for introducing a god and trying to explain how it interacts with the universe and other conjecture about it's physical composition or whether it only exists interdimensionally, etc. None of those things can be tested or investigated with the current evidence on offer, and when we try, it doesn't matter what excuse the theist comes up with, for all intents and purposes of learning useful knowledge and constructing accurate models of our universe, this alleged god might even as well not exist. So you assume it doesn't until evidence comes along that can falsify or support the hypothesis.

I think if something supernatural exists it's a lot more hands off than people assume. I also don't think it values humanity any more than any other space dust. I understand what you're saying, but your argument almost suggests this isn't a science discussion at all, in which case atheists shouldn't wield science like a sword and shield in an attempt to brutalize theists.
 
The onus is on a theist to prove that it his version of God that is the correct and only one out there.
 
The onus is on a theist to prove that it his version of God that is the correct and only one out there.

What about an agnostic that is truly neutral due to lack of sufficient evidence?
 
I think if something supernatural exists it's a lot more hands off than people assume. I also don't think it values humanity any more than any other space dust. I understand what you're saying, but your argument almost suggests this isn't a science discussion at all, in which case atheists shouldn't wield science like a sword and shield in an attempt to brutalize theists.
It isn't a science discussion if the scientific process can not be used to investigate it, which is what theists keep saying. As for science being a sword and shield to wield against theists,,that is more a natural progression of events since science first started shining a spotlight into the darkness of our knowledge. Before science, that darkness was filled with gods and demons and all sorts of supernatural stuff, and as we learned more, the darkness for God to hide in became smaller and smaller, and religion and science became natural opponents. Religion tries to keep areas of knowledge dark for God to hide in, science keeps marching on spreading knowledge and providing useful models we use to advance humanity.
 
Anyone who wants to believe in an invisible entity is welcome to as far as I'm concerned, it does not mean I have to prove there is no god. I'm secure in my non beliefs.
 
It isn't a science discussion if the scientific process can not be used to investigate it, which is what theists keep saying. As for science being a sword and shield to wield against theists,,that is more a natural progression of events since science first started shining a spotlight into the darkness of our knowledge. Before science, that darkness was filled with gods and demons and all sorts of supernatural stuff, and as we learned more, the darkness for God to hide in became smaller and smaller, and religion and science became natural opponents. Religion tries to keep areas of knowledge dark for God to hide in, science keeps marching on spreading knowledge and providing useful models we use to advance humanity.

If you start a brawl and force somebody to choose between their faith and science their choice will often disappoint you. I think a more gentle approach from many atheists would go a long way.
 
We're only human.

[snip]... They're not even looking forward to an afterlife. For atheists, it's death and then nothing — forever...[snip]

The uncertainty of an atheist sounds like a nightmare, doesn't it?

How is that uncertainty? Sounds like it covers everything to me.
 
If you start a brawl and force somebody to choose between their faith and science their choice will often disappoint you. I think a more gentle approach from many atheists would go a long way.
It isn't atheists' or science's job to treat those who want to continue believing in the mythos with kid gloves, but to treat reality as it is. I don't care to make people choose, people can and do easily accept both. I'm more concerned with those that do actively resist obvious, scientific truths to everybody's detriment, and will pull no punches exposing their irrelevance.
 
What about an agnostic that is truly neutral due to lack of sufficient evidence?
Does it sound as though one can sit on the fence with God?

“See, I do put before you today life and good, and death and bad. " Deuteronomy 3015
 
It isn't atheists' or science's job to treat those who want to continue believing in the mythos with kid gloves, but to treat reality as it is. I don't care to make people choose, people can and do easily accept both. I'm more concerned with those that do actively resist obvious, scientific truths to everybody's detriment, and will pull no punches exposing their irrelevance.

It's a lot more than just treating reality as it is for a lot of atheists. I used to be one of them when I was a younger man. There is a lot of condescension and outright rudeness involved a lot of times. Atheists aren't obligated to be kind and respectful, but while being unwilling to do that I'm not sure what they hope to achieve through conversation with theists.
 
Maybe it's just cathartic to scream at somebody you think is dumber than you.
 
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