You can’t be a good Christian and a have Voted for Trump

[Cable_Extreme]

I am real. You are doing theology by sound bit and that is not sound theology.

You ignore all the verses I linked, that is not sound debating.

 

[RAMOSS]

You ignore all the verses I linked, that is not sound debating.

I could go into depth in each and every one of them.. they are in fact passages I had debated before, but somehow from manner I would expect the gish gallop. It also going into the depth required to accurately respond to each and every quote would derail this thread.

 

[Cable_Extreme]

and vote against healthcare for poor kids....yeah, Jesus was all in on that idea :roll:

I voted against killing hundreds of thousands of humans (abortion).
I voted for Guns too > socialistic mandatory healthcare.
There are so many different charities that give full rides to children of poor families.

 

[Cable_Extreme]

I could go into depth in each and every one of them.. they are in fact passages I had debated before, but somehow from manner I would expect the gish gallop. It also going into the depth required to accurately respond to each and every quote would derail this thread.

Side step the presented evidence which is not offtopic. Voting for Trump means voting against abortion, gay marriage etc... Those verses support my statements about conservatives being a better christian platform than liberals.

 

[calamity]

I voted against killing hundreds of thousands of humans (abortion).
I voted for Guns too > socialistic mandatory healthcare.
There are so many different charities that give full rides to children of poor families.

Guns...yeah, another thing Jesus said we need more of. :roll:

You sure are proving my point. Are you sure you intended to do that?

 

[Cable_Extreme]

Guns...yeah, another thing Jesus said we need more of. :roll:

You sure are proving my point. Are you sure you intended to do that?

Guns for hunting and competition/range shooting. What is anti-christian about that?

 

[Cable_Extreme]

Quote Originally Posted by Cable_Extreme View Post
I'm arguing the point of this thread, don't mistake me for a christian.

You're not arguing it very well. Maybe you should reread the title.

I meant to type don't mistake me for a judgmental christian, but I was going so fast replying to different post that I forgot it. It won't let me edit it so ignore that post.

 

[calamity]

Guns for hunting and competition/range shooting. What is anti-christian about that?

Jesus was all in on building a wall to keep desperate and hungry people out too, I am sure. :roll:

 

[TrumpPence2020]

Jesus was all in on building a wall to keep desperate and hungry people out too, I am sure. :roll:

Jesus said to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Currently. it is the job of the Federal Government to protect and defend the borders. The wall will do that. Trump and Republicans welcome Immigrants. What we don't welcome is people who break the law and illegally enter the company. Apparently you and your ilk DO welcome people who break the law and illegally enter the company. Maybe you should tear down the fence around your house and let homeless and hungry people come and go from your home - practice what you preach, lest you been seen as a hypocrite.

Jesus would have no problem with the wall. Jerusalem had a huge wall around it to protect it from enemies and Jesus never said a thing about it.

Don't use Jesus to promote your lawless leftwing extremism.

Guns for hunting and competition/range shooting. What is anti-christian about that?

Nothing at all. These people know as much about Jesus as they do about brain surgery. Its sick how people who accept all manner of filth and perversion and murder of babies occasionally trot out Jesus to try and support their extremism.

 

[calamity]

Jesus said to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Currently. it is the job of the Federal Government to protect and defend the borders. The wall will do that. Trump and Republicans welcome Immigrants. What we don't welcome is people who break the law and illegally enter the company. Apparently you and your ilk DO welcome people who break the law and illegally enter the company. Maybe you should tear down the fence around your house and let homeless and hungry people come and go from your home - practice what you preach, lest you been seen as a hypocrite.

Jesus would have no problem with the wall. Jerusalem had a huge wall around it to protect it from enemies and Jesus never said a thing about it.

Don't use Jesus to promote your lawless leftwing extremism.



Nothing at all. These people know as much about Jesus as they do about brain surgery. Its sick how people who accept all manner of filth and perversion and murder of babies occasionally trot out Jesus to try and support their extremism.

Abortion is not the "murder of babies." Clearly you are clueless on the definitions of both murder and babies.

 

[TrumpPence2020]

Abortion is not the "murder of babies." Clearly you are clueless on the definitions of both murder and babies.

I know the definition fine. You can use words like Zygote and Fetus all you want to. That is a Hitler-like tactic to dehumanize people and make it easier to murder them. Hitler called Jews vermin, all the easier to kill them. A hearty Zeig Heil to you. And of course, you totally missed the point of my post - no surprise there.

 

[upsideguy]

Christians vote for candidates who's political platform supports christian ideology. Conservative platforms are much more aligned with christian ideology than liberal platforms are.

I disagree with the above statement..... I would argue that the Republican platform tends to be contrary to the teaching of Christ, most specifically his teaching in Matthew 25...

"...31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 A stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life....”

Sorry, but the Gospel includes many challenges by Christ to care for our fellow man. He also repeatedly admonished man for his greed and love of money. The so-called Christian friendly platform of the Conservatives is about abortion (not even mentioned in the Bible), homosexuality and family. The Conservatives want to legislate morality (and usually the morality of others), where Progressive programs tend to address the teachings of Christ.... The Conservative agenda is generally one of greed (one of the things God hates) with a significant cold shoulder to those that are the 'least amongst us'.

That said, I am not trying to make the argument that one party is more Christian in its composition than the other. I am only writing to dispel this odd notion that Conservatives have an exclusive hot-line to the Kingdom.

 

[upsideguy]

Abortion is not the "murder of babies." Clearly you are clueless on the definitions of both murder and babies.

Moreover, the Bible does not speak of abortion. The reality of it is that it is a secular issue that most Christians have taken a moral stance on because it offends the sensibilities of Christians. There is nothing wrong with that. I do take exception with Christians deciding that they are better Christians because they detest abortion, and then are perfectly fine with not being advocates for many other things that the Father and Son say they detest, including greed, love of money, and ignoring the least amongst us that need help (see post #37).

It is unfortunate that many Christians do not really want to be all-in for Christ. They are more than happy in their self-righteousness, admonishing other peoples sins (speaking out on abortion or homosexuality) but are dead quiet on their sins (including greed and love of money).

 

[calamity]

Moreover, the Bible does not speak of abortion. The reality of it is that it is a secular issue that most Christians have taken a moral stance on because it offends the sensibilities of Christians. There is nothing wrong with that. I do take exception with Christians deciding that they are better Christians because they detest abortion, and then are perfectly fine with not being advocates for many other things that the Father and Son say they detest, including greed, love of money, and ignoring the least amongst us that need help (see post #37).

It is unfortunate that many Christians do not really want to be all-in for Christ. They are more than happy in their self-righteousness, admonishing other peoples sins (speaking out on abortion or homosexuality) but are dead quiet on their sins (including greed and love of money).

Yeah, I challenged one of the "new" guys up there on that. One of them came back with some silly quote in Jerimiah which had nothing to do with abortion but spoke of God knowing someone before they were conceived. :doh

 

[TrumpPence2020]

Moreover, the Bible does not speak of abortion...........

Then you are not reading it correctly. That's okay, most people don't.

QUOTE:

As the early Christian writer Tertullian pointed out, the law of Moses ordered strict penalties for causing an abortion. We read, "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [Hebrew: "so that her child comes out"], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Ex. 21:22–24).

This applies the lex talionis or "law of retribution" to abortion. The lex talionis establishes the just punishment for an injury (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life, compared to the much greater retributions that had been common before, such as life for eye, life for tooth, lives of the offender’s family for one life).

The lex talionis would already have been applied to a woman who was injured in a fight. The distinguishing point in this passage is that a pregnant woman is hurt "so that her child comes out"; the child is the focus of the lex talionis in this passage. Aborted babies must have justice, too.

This is because they, like older children, have souls, even though marred by original sin. David tells us, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5, NIV). Since sinfulness is a spiritual rather than a physical condition, David must have had a spiritual nature from the time of conception.

The same is shown in James 2:26, which tells us that "the body without the spirit is dead": The soul is the life-principle of the human body. Since from the time of conception the child’s body is alive (as shown by the fact it is growing), the child’s body must already have its spirit.

Thus, in 1995 Pope John Paul II declared that the Church’s teaching on abortion "is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church" (Evangelium Vitae 62).

source link

 

[upsideguy]

Then you are not reading it correctly. That's okay, most people don't.

QUOTE:

As the early Christian writer Tertullian pointed out, the law of Moses ordered strict penalties for causing an abortion. We read, "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [Hebrew: "so that her child comes out"], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Ex. 21:22–24).

This applies the lex talionis or "law of retribution" to abortion. The lex talionis establishes the just punishment for an injury (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life, compared to the much greater retributions that had been common before, such as life for eye, life for tooth, lives of the offender’s family for one life).

The lex talionis would already have been applied to a woman who was injured in a fight. The distinguishing point in this passage is that a pregnant woman is hurt "so that her child comes out"; the child is the focus of the lex talionis in this passage. Aborted babies must have justice, too.

This is because they, like older children, have souls, even though marred by original sin. David tells us, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5, NIV). Since sinfulness is a spiritual rather than a physical condition, David must have had a spiritual nature from the time of conception.

The same is shown in James 2:26, which tells us that "the body without the spirit is dead": The soul is the life-principle of the human body. Since from the time of conception the child’s body is alive (as shown by the fact it is growing), the child’s body must already have its spirit.

Thus, in 1995 Pope John Paul II declared that the Church’s teaching on abortion "is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church" (Evangelium Vitae 62).

source link

Thank you. I am not interested in an argument about abortion. I was merely pointing out that the issue is not directly addressed by the Bible, not that Christians have not built Biblical arguments around it.

Fundamentally, as I previously stated, abortion offends the sensibilities of Christians, for good reason, including much of what you pointed out. However, all you have produced here is a Biblical argument (citing a verse and then telling us this is what it means regarding this issue).... ok, nicely done. But there is no verse that says a woman must not abort her child. At best, you can make the argument that immorality of abortion is implicit in the Bible. It is not explicit (if it were explicit, you would not need to add commentary to tell us what the verse means as it relates to abortion).

Frankly, I am not a particularly big fan of biblical arguments. I have seen some real doozies that lead to nonsensical conclusions. They end up being Biblical rationalizations, which I believe is akin to taking the Lord's name in vain. (trying to get God to justify your thinking)

In my post, I was drawing the contrast of things that are implicit in the Bible, such as abortion, that Conservatives have embraced and declared their self-righteousness around, while ignoring many things that are explicit, including many of the words of Christ himself.

My point: there is nothing inherently Christian about the Conservative agenda.

 

[SoulFire77]

...No good Christian should vote for a Muslim, either. But, a lot of them did in '08.

(Relax, I'm just joking... Just pointing out that the president's religion only matters when you don't like him.)

 

[minnie616]

Then you are not reading it correctly. That's okay, most people don't.

QUOTE:

As the early Christian writer Tertullian pointed out, the law of Moses ordered strict penalties for causing an abortion. We read, "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [Hebrew: "so that her child comes out"], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Ex. 21:22–24

It was a miscarriage the fetus died. It was not premature.


In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: 'If a man kills any human life he will be put to death' (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.”
...............

 

[calamity]

Then you are not reading it correctly. That's okay, most people don't.

QUOTE:

As the early Christian writer Tertullian pointed out, the law of Moses ordered strict penalties for causing an abortion. We read, "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [Hebrew: "so that her child comes out"], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Ex. 21:22–24).

This applies the lex talionis or "law of retribution" to abortion. The lex talionis establishes the just punishment for an injury (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life, compared to the much greater retributions that had been common before, such as life for eye, life for tooth, lives of the offender’s family for one life).

The lex talionis would already have been applied to a woman who was injured in a fight. The distinguishing point in this passage is that a pregnant woman is hurt "so that her child comes out"; the child is the focus of the lex talionis in this passage. Aborted babies must have justice, too.

This is because they, like older children, have souls, even though marred by original sin. David tells us, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5, NIV). Since sinfulness is a spiritual rather than a physical condition, David must have had a spiritual nature from the time of conception.

The same is shown in James 2:26, which tells us that "the body without the spirit is dead": The soul is the life-principle of the human body. Since from the time of conception the child’s body is alive (as shown by the fact it is growing), the child’s body must already have its spirit.

Thus, in 1995 Pope John Paul II declared that the Church’s teaching on abortion "is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church" (Evangelium Vitae 62).

source link

You're the one not reading "it" correctly. But, you probably already know that. Doncha?

 

[TrumpPence2020]

You're the one not reading "it" correctly. But, you probably already know that. Doncha?

LOL. I quoted early Christian writer Tertullian and all the way up Pope John Paul II. If you think you know better than them then you suffer from delusions of grandeur.

 

[calamity]

LOL. I quoted early Christian writer Tertullian and all the way up Pope John Paul II. If you think you know better than them then you suffer from delusions of grandeur.

Old Testament is trumped by the new. Love they neighbor is the new rule; stone him is obsolete.

 

[CLAX1911]

Idk what part of Christianity says you must vote for a devote christian into political office... Or that you must choose a corrupt dispel of Satan woman instead......but hey, how would I know? I'm probably out of touch with that community

I wouldn't take what a non-Christian says a good Christian can do what would he know?

He's so completely uninformed he uses the term good Christian. When Christians aren't good there are need of Salvation that's the whole point of Christianity.

He wouldn't know the difference between a good Christian in the truck load of potatoes.