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AND that is the crux of it really, it's a moral choice.
Do you let people die, or risk people dying for the comfort of someone you have a pretty good clue is a terrorist.
For me, the answer is, no, you save lives and prevent the terrorist from carrying out his attack.
Would I prefer we never have to use such, CERTAINLY I do. However, they force it on us, not the other way around.
Obviously, I would frame the issue differently, but yeah, it's a moral choice. I see nothing to gain from condemning people who where trying to do what they felt is right, even though I am disappointed that they chose to do what they did.
I also think that this debate is good for the country in the long run. We need to decide as a nation what is and is not acceptable, and make our laws as clear as possible in that regard.
See, you and I have a different outlook on this... terrorist are evil, period, and deserve condemnation. No matter what they think.. they are wrong.
See, you and I have a different outlook on this... terrorist are evil, period, and deserve condemnation. No matter what they think.. they are wrong.
OK, saying that terrorism is wrong is one thing.
Saying that torture is right? Not only is that another thing, it is wrong.
It also helps the terrorists recruit by giving them propoganda.
You pick up arms, we WILL kill you. You put them down, we WILL talk to you. Why is torture any part of that conversation?
Hmmm...not sure where that came from. I have a very similar view on what you just stated. Terrorists are evil, period, and deserve condemnation. Yup, I agree with that statement 100 %. I would also say I have no sympathy for any terrorist who was tortured. I think though that this is looking at the issue from the wrong end. When it comes to torture, we need to look at ourselves, not at whom we torture, if you understand what I am saying.
With it, we are no better than those who would do us harm.
So you're willing to let people die, even yourself or your family... so that someone caught on a battlefield in another country or by our intelligence services... can get his day in court.
As I clearly stated earlier:
First, you have to prove the individual is a terrorist and wasn't simply turned in by a neighbor that hates him, in order to receive a wad of blood money from George Bush.
There's a reason the individuals in Gitmo haven't been tried. It's because we cannot prove they are terrorists. If we could, they'd all have been tried and executed by now, wouldn't they?
I ask again, how's that going? :roll:
The epic failure of your logic is, the terrorist have ZERO desire to talk to you, don't fear death, and ANYTHING we do other then submit to their cause and convert inspires them.
I know that is an alien concept to some, but that's reality, welcome to it.
And again, if your life was in my hands in a ticking time bomb situation with a bad guy in custody... you'd go home alive.
Where as I'd be buried with all the rest killed because you and others like you, are more afraid of hurting a terrorist then saving innocent people from death.
Obviously, I would frame the issue differently, but yeah, it's a moral choice.
I also think that this debate is good for the country in the long run. We need to decide as a nation what is and is not acceptable, and make our laws as clear as possible in that regard.
It is indeed a moral choice. However, you also have to factor in that it doesn't work. I know it makes a group of people feel real macho to torture someone but, that's all it is. It does not work.
Our laws are very clear on this. Torture, and specifically waterboarding, is illegal.
It is indeed a moral choice. However, you also have to factor in that it doesn't work. I know it makes a group of people feel real macho to torture someone but, that's all it is. It does not work.
Our laws are very clear on this. Torture, and specifically waterboarding, is illegal.
It doesn't work, and even if it did I regard the argument from utility as a logical fallacy.
Religion "works", communism "works", slavery "works", that is no more to the point at ALL.
Its immoral, its illegal, it creates more terrorists,it produces bad intelligence and puts agents on wild goose chases, it makes us no better than them, and I don't care if it would save my life. I for one would rather remain worthy of survival.
Wait hold up....
You're willing to execute them?
But not torture them?
No, ADK and others are right, "torturing people" for the sake torture is pointless and doesn't work.
Encouraging people through physical methods to divulge information does work...
But they don't want to admit that.
A better thought experiment for this thread would be "and what if this person tortured was an American citizen? And had their rights violated for your life?"
What in the hell are you going on about here? No, seriously, I'm confused.
Torture "works" occasionally with its prime goal, to extract information. It is not efficient, it is not reliable, it is not full proof, but it CAN actually recover useful inforamtion. Does that mean we should do it, or that it's good? No. All it means is that a statement that "It does not work" as an absolute fact is fraudulent and incorrect.
How does this relate to Religion. What instance about "religion" do you mean works? Same with communism? Same with Slavery?
And all this has to do with the fact that "It does not work" as an absolute is wrong....how? Hell, you're not even talking about it in a general sense. Torture 100 years ago created more terrorists? Torture, if done 50 years from now in a theoretical war with China will magically create "terrorists". You're talking in a little box which is why you speak about it with such vested interest and with emotional bias due to your distaste/hatred for the former administration.
My life > their rights.
See, that was easy. Because unlike you, I don't see someone that wishes harm and death on others as deserving of being treated nicely.
My life > their rights.
See, that was easy. Because unlike you, I don't see someone that wishes harm and death on others as deserving of being treated nicely.
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