Wokism idolizes socialism. They will be hoist by their own petard if history is any guide

[RealityChecker]

Wokism has captured the Democrat party and it is just another name for Marxism, socialism, and communism.

Why do the woke folks believe in socialism? Do they value safety over freedom? Are they not aware of the long and sordid history of the economic malaise and oppression of individual liberty that occur every time the socialists get control of the government? This young lady (Mario Bello) describes the reality of what happened to Venezuela when their people elected Hugo Chavez. This young refugee from Venezuela tells us how the progressive left zealots of Chavez and now Maduro have ruined Venezuela:

Maria Bello, Venezuela | PragerU

Maria Bello shares her journey from Venezuela's socialism to fighting for freedom in the U.S.

www.prageru.com

 

[Mr Person]

Socialism is government ownership of the means of production.

@RealityChecker has yet again shown that people who constantly bray about it do not have a clue what it is.

Wokism has captured the Democrat party and it is just another name for Marxism, socialism, and communism.

Those are all just names of potatoes.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Now this is an original thread, clearly well thought out, lucid, detailed, with a clear understanding of terms, and a totally unbiased presentation.

(cough cough)

 

[the Avatar]

Now this is an original thread, clearly well thought out, lucid, detailed, with a clear understanding of terms, and a totally unbiased presentation.

(cough cough)

Seriously, having a little internet crusade is one thing, but this thread is just a variation of the same topic that's still on the first page of the same subforum.

Couldn't we have at least waited until the "why do woke people shut down ideas they dislike?" thread hit the second page, or maybe just combine the two threads?

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Wokism has captured the Democrat party and it is just another name for Marxism, socialism, and communism.

Why do the woke folks believe in socialism? Do they value safety over freedom? Are they not aware of the long and sordid history of the economic malaise and oppression of individual liberty that occur every time the socialists get control of the government? This young lady (Mario Bello) describes the reality of what happened to Venezuela when their people elected Hugo Chavez. This young refugee from Venezuela tells us how the progressive left zealots of Chavez and now Maduro have ruined Venezuela:

Maria Bello, Venezuela | PragerU

Maria Bello shares her journey from Venezuela's socialism to fighting for freedom in the U.S.

www.prageru.com

What do you mean by 'every time the socialists get control of the government'?

Do you mean how more progressive nations like Norway and Sweden have higher standards of living across the board? Since the mixed economy Nordic Model is what the woke folk want, I can only assume that the Nordic Model is what you are labeling as 'socialism.'

Can you give us some examples of how Norway and Sweden have 'economic malaise and oppression of individual liberty'?

 

[JMB802]

Wokism has captured the Democrat party and it is just another name for Marxism, socialism, and communism.

Why do the woke folks believe in socialism? Do they value safety over freedom? Are they not aware of the long and sordid history of the economic malaise and oppression of individual liberty that occur every time the socialists get control of the government? This young lady (Mario Bello) describes the reality of what happened to Venezuela when their people elected Hugo Chavez. This young refugee from Venezuela tells us how the progressive left zealots of Chavez and now Maduro have ruined Venezuela:

Maria Bello, Venezuela | PragerU

Maria Bello shares her journey from Venezuela's socialism to fighting for freedom in the U.S.

www.prageru.com

Jeez, how many "scare the conservatives" buzzwords can be crammed into one thread title and one comment?

 

[RealityChecker]

Socialism is government ownership of the means of production.

Right and the Democrats are clearly moving us in that direction. Do you deny that reality? Are the BLM founders "woke" socialists?

@RealityChecker has yet again shown that people who constantly bray about it do not have a clue what it is.

I understand what socialism is and Maria Bello saw what happened in Venezuela when the socialist took over. It was nothing new as we have seen the same thing happen in every country where Marxist ideology has gained power.

Those are all just names of potatoes.

???????????????????????????????

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Are they not aware of the long and sordid history of the economic malaise and oppression of individual liberty that occur every time the socialists get control of the government?

Since apparently we are just using anecdotes instead of making an argument, then I'll just point to Rojava or the Zapatista movement in Mexico as ask you why you deny the success of these communist movements in securing individual liberty and rights?

 

[RealityChecker]

Seriously, having a little internet crusade is one thing, but this thread is just a variation of the same topic that's still on the first page of the same subforum.

Couldn't we have at least waited until the "why do woke people shut down ideas they dislike?" thread hit the second page, or maybe just combine the two threads?

Too much of good thing? Maybe just focus on one. You could start with something other than insulting the messenger.

 

[JMB802]

Too much of good thing? Maybe just focus on one. You could start with something other than insulting the messenger.

Read the comment again. It's an observation about the messageS, not the messenger.

 

[RealityChecker]

Since apparently we are just using anecdotes instead of making an argument, then I'll just point to Rojava or the Zapatista movement in Mexico as ask you why you deny the success of these communist movements in securing individual liberty and rights?

The Zapaista movement is not Marxists but more based on tribalism and perhaps religious liberty iof people who are being oppressed. The Kurds and Zapaistas are more like the Uighurs who are opposing Chinese Communist domination.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

The Zapaista movement is not Marxists but more based on tribalism and perhaps religious liberty iof people who are being oppressed. The Kurds and Zapaistas are more like the Uighurs who are opposing Chinese Communist domination.

Do you have any...reason to believe that? Are you really going to tell me that these guys...

Neozapatismo is generally held to be based on anarchism, Mayan tradition, Marxism,[6][7] the thoughts of Emiliano Zapata, and the thoughts of Subcomandante Insurgente Galeano. Neozapatismo has been influenced by libertarian socialism, libertarian Marxism (including autonomism), social anarchism, anarcho-communism, anarcho-collectivism, anarcho-syndicalism, communalism, direct democracy, and radical democracy. (Source)

...are NOT Marxists? Well...ok then. I Guess that makes Bernie some kind of right wing Facist by that standard.

On Rojava:

The autonomous region is ruled by a coalition which bases its policy ambitions to a large extent on democratic libertarian socialist ideology of democratic confederalism and have been described as pursuing a model of economy that blends co-operative and market enterprise, through a system of local councils in minority, cultural and religious representation. The AANES has by far the highest average salaries and standard of living throughout Syria, with salaries being twice as large as in regime controlled Syria; following the collapse of the Syrian Pound the AANES doubled salaries to maintain inflation, and allow for good wages. (Source)

If that isn't communism then I guess I'm not a communist.

 

[RealityChecker]

What do you mean by 'every time the socialists get control of the government'?

When the Marxist and fascist ideologues get control of the government they tend to silence those who oppose their authority to take away the property rights and individual rights of their citizens.

Do you mean how more progressive nations like Norway and Sweden have higher standards of living across the board? Since the mixed economy Nordic Model is what the woke folk want, I can only assume that the Nordic Model is what you are labeling as 'socialism.'

Actually, if you listen to the BLM founders they do not want capitalism and seek to take away the individual rights of others who do not share their vision. AOC and her squad are not fans of free enterprise and free speech either. Sweden actually went too far toward collectivism and is doing far better by putting limits on their confiscation of the property and wealth of their citizens.

Can you give us some examples of how Norway and Sweden have 'economic malaise and oppression of individual liberty'?

About half of millennials now say they prefer socialism to capitalism! They see themselves as woke. It is true AOC claims her policies more closely resemble those of Norway, Finland, and Sweden. However, Sweden’s experiment with even more socialist policies proved economically disastrous. So Sweden's economic success in recent decades is actually largely the result of market-based reforms and lower taxes. Trump was in fact doing similar types of reforms in the USA.

Until the mid-1900s, Sweden had a highly competitive market-based economy. By 1970 Sweden had achieved the world’s fourth-highest per capita income. Then the increasingly radical Social Democratic governments starting raising taxes, running far more of the economy through the government. Their tax and spend policies combined with far more government regulation made them far more socialist than other Western European countries. The result was their economic slowed and capital started fleeing to less taxed and regulated countries. By the early 1990s, Sweden’s per capita income ranking had dropped to 14th overall. Economic growth sputtered from 1970 to the early 1990s with about a 1% slower growth rate seen in the rest of Europe and a full 2% slower than in the U.S.. Now under the 16 years of Bush and Obama we saw the US economic growth slow significantly. With the Trump tax cuts and less regulation we saw the US economy pick up and start to grow faster.

Clearly we need some government regulations and we need some taxes but as we saw with Sweden there is a real danger to going too far to the progressive left, even if one does not go all the way to communism it is clear increasing government and taxes will slow the economy. That is why I voted for Trump and see Biden and AOC as a bad for America. That is reality.

 

[mrjurrs]

Wokism has captured the Democrat party and it is just another name for Marxism, socialism, and communism.

Why do the woke folks believe in socialism? Do they value safety over freedom? Are they not aware of the long and sordid history of the economic malaise and oppression of individual liberty that occur every time the socialists get control of the government? This young lady (Mario Bello) describes the reality of what happened to Venezuela when their people elected Hugo Chavez. This young refugee from Venezuela tells us how the progressive left zealots of Chavez and now Maduro have ruined Venezuela:

Maria Bello, Venezuela | PragerU

Maria Bello shares her journey from Venezuela's socialism to fighting for freedom in the U.S.

www.prageru.com

Prager U?


Is this only a socialistic governments characteristics?
"Political corruption, chronic shortages of food and medicine, closure of businesses, unemployment, deterioration of productivity, authoritarianism, human rights violations, gross economic mismanagement and high dependence on oil have also contributed to the worsening crisis."

Bribery and Corruption

As businesses continue to expand globally into new and emerging markets, bribery and corruption risks have increased exponentially. Bribery and Corruption offers a comprehensive look at this growing problem, and at the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA) and other international anti-bribery and...

www.google.com

 

[Nomad4Ever]

The result was their economic slowed and capital started fleeing to less taxed and regulated countries. By the early 1990s, Sweden’s per capita income ranking had dropped to 14th overall.

What is per capita income? Do you mean average income? Or perhaps GDP per capita?

 

[RealityChecker]

Do you have any...reason to believe that? Are you really going to tell me that these guys...

...are NOT Marxists? Well...ok then. I Guess that makes Bernie some kind of right wing Facist by that standard.

I have no idea how one can be a "libertarian Marxist", a "libertarian socialist", an anarchist and a collectivist or communist, etc. all at the same time.

On Rojava: If that isn't communism then I guess I'm not a communist.

Well the Syrian Kurds are certainly oppressed people. Kurds are also oppressed in Iran, Turkey, and Iraq. However, I do not see them as communists or Marxist any more than I see the Uighurs, who are being oppressed by communists as communists.

 

[RealityChecker]

Prager U?
View attachment 67353029

Is this only a socialistic governments characteristics?
"Political corruption, chronic shortages of food and medicine, closure of businesses, unemployment, deterioration of productivity, authoritarianism, human rights violations, gross economic mismanagement and high dependence on oil have also contributed to the worsening crisis."

Bribery and Corruption

As businesses continue to expand globally into new and emerging markets, bribery and corruption risks have increased exponentially. Bribery and Corruption offers a comprehensive look at this growing problem, and at the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA) and other international anti-bribery and...

www.google.com

You seem to think I am a fan of cronyism? I am not. I have stated many times I oppose corrupt politicians of both parties in part because they cater to the the needs of the very rich and big corporations. Government aided monopolies and oligarchs are not my idea of free enterprise and individual liberty. Cronyism is sadly corruption supported by both corrupt political parties.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I have no idea how one can be a "libertarian Marxist", a "libertarian socialist", an anarchist and a collectivist or communist, etc. all at the same time.

Then, respectfully, maybe you don't fully understand what all those terms mean? I assure you these are very related ideas. All the first anarchists were Marxists.

However, I do not see them communists or Marxist any more than I see the Uighurs, who are being oppressed by communists as communists.

Well, they see themselves as Marxists. The Uighurs aren't Marxists...or a political movement? All kurds are not communist. Rojava is communist. They have a system of collective ownership and community councils. That like, definitionally communist. Please educate me how collective ownership isn't communism.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

When the Marxist and fascist ideologues get control of the government they tend to silence those who oppose their authority to take away the property rights and individual rights of their citizens.

Actually, if you listen to the BLM founders they do not want capitalism and seek to take away the individual rights of others who do not share their vision. AOC and her squad are not fans of free enterprise and free speech either. Sweden actually went too far toward collectivism and is doing far better by putting limits on their confiscation of the property and wealth of their citizens.

About half of millennials now say they prefer socialism to capitalism! They see themselves as woke. It is true AOC claims her policies more closely resemble those of Norway, Finland, and Sweden. However, Sweden’s experiment with even more socialist policies proved economically disastrous. So Sweden's economic success in recent decades is actually largely the result of market-based reforms and lower taxes. Trump was in fact doing similar types of reforms in the USA.

Until the mid-1900s, Sweden had a highly competitive market-based economy. By 1970 Sweden had achieved the world’s fourth-highest per capita income. Then the increasingly radical Social Democratic governments starting raising taxes, running far more of the economy through the government. Their tax and spend policies combined with far more government regulation made them far more socialist than other Western European countries. The result was their economic slowed and capital started fleeing to less taxed and regulated countries. By the early 1990s, Sweden’s per capita income ranking had dropped to 14th overall. Economic growth sputtered from 1970 to the early 1990s with about a 1% slower growth rate seen in the rest of Europe and a full 2% slower than in the U.S.. Now under the 16 years of Bush and Obama we saw the US economic growth slow significantly. With the Trump tax cuts and less regulation we saw the US economy pick up and start to grow faster.

Clearly we need some government regulations and we need some taxes but as we saw with Sweden there is a real danger to going too far to the progressive left, even if one does not go all the way to communism it is clear increasing government and taxes will slow the economy. That is why I voted for Trump and see Biden and AOC as a bad for America. That is reality.

So your dire warnings about how terrible life will be if people embrace socialism is about how life in the US would become more like living in Norway?

Those of us who have been to Norway aren't exactly shaking in our boots at the prospect.

 

[Grand Mal]

Wokism has captured the Democrat party and it is just another name for Marxism, socialism, and communism.

Why do the woke folks believe in socialism? Do they value safety over freedom? Are they not aware of the long and sordid history of the economic malaise and oppression of individual liberty that occur every time the socialists get control of the government? This young lady (Mario Bello) describes the reality of what happened to Venezuela when their people elected Hugo Chavez. This young refugee from Venezuela tells us how the progressive left zealots of Chavez and now Maduro have ruined Venezuela:

Maria Bello, Venezuela | PragerU

Maria Bello shares her journey from Venezuela's socialism to fighting for freedom in the U.S.

www.prageru.com

Okay, just so we're on the same page, what does 'woke' mean to you? Because as far as I know it has nothing to do with political or economic philosophy. To me, It's just a kind of over-reacting obsession with social justice issues, involving well- meaning but sometimes misguided people.
What do you say 'woke' means?

 

[RealityChecker]

So your dire warnings about how terrible life will be if people embrace socialism is about how life in the US would become more like living in Norway?

Those of us who have been to Norway aren't exactly shaking in our boots at the prospect.

Hum, seems you want to extol the virtue of Norway now instead of Sweden. Well FYI Norway has a huge sovereign wealth fund that continues to grow. It was not derived from high taxes but largely derived from its North Sea petroleum reserves. As a result this sovereign wealth fund helps fund a generous welfare state without the high taxes that would seriously undermine capitalism and individual liberty. Alaska actually is the only state that pays its residents instead of taxing them. Alaska derives those funds from selling its petroleum reserves like Norway does.

 

[Grand Mal]

When the Marxist and fascist ideologues get control of the government they tend to silence those who oppose their authority to take away the property rights and individual rights of their citizens.

Actually, if you listen to the BLM founders they do not want capitalism and seek to take away the individual rights of others who do not share their vision. AOC and her squad are not fans of free enterprise and free speech either. Sweden actually went too far toward collectivism and is doing far better by putting limits on their confiscation of the property and wealth of their citizens.

About half of millennials now say they prefer socialism to capitalism! They see themselves as woke. It is true AOC claims her policies more closely resemble those of Norway, Finland, and Sweden. However, Sweden’s experiment with even more socialist policies proved economically disastrous. So Sweden's economic success in recent decades is actually largely the result of market-based reforms and lower taxes. Trump was in fact doing similar types of reforms in the USA.

Until the mid-1900s, Sweden had a highly competitive market-based economy. By 1970 Sweden had achieved the world’s fourth-highest per capita income. Then the increasingly radical Social Democratic governments starting raising taxes, running far more of the economy through the government. Their tax and spend policies combined with far more government regulation made them far more socialist than other Western European countries. The result was their economic slowed and capital started fleeing to less taxed and regulated countries. By the early 1990s, Sweden’s per capita income ranking had dropped to 14th overall. Economic growth sputtered from 1970 to the early 1990s with about a 1% slower growth rate seen in the rest of Europe and a full 2% slower than in the U.S.. Now under the 16 years of Bush and Obama we saw the US economic growth slow significantly. With the Trump tax cuts and less regulation we saw the US economy pick up and start to grow faster.

Clearly we need some government regulations and we need some taxes but as we saw with Sweden there is a real danger to going too far to the progressive left, even if one does not go all the way to communism it is clear increasing government and taxes will slow the economy. That is why I voted for Trump and see Biden and AOC as a bad for America. That is reality.

There's no point in talking about per capita income if in one of your examples 1% of the population make 30 times the average. Per capita assumes income is divided evenly among the population. Average citizens of a country with a lower per capita income but smaller disparity are much better off than citizens of a country with a higher per capita but the vast majority of the income is confined to 1 or 2%.

 

[Grand Mal]

Hum, seems you want to extol the virtue of Norway now instead of Sweden. Well FYI Norway has a huge sovereign wealth fund that continues to grow. It was not derived from high taxes but largely derived from its North Sea petroleum reserves. As a result this sovereign wealth fund helps fund a generous welfare state without the high taxes that would seriously undermine capitalism and individual liberty. Alaska actually is the only state that pays its residents instead of taxing them. Alaska derives those funds from selling its petroleum reserves like Norway does.

Does that make Alaska socialist or Norway free-market capitalist?

 

[RealityChecker]

Okay, just so we're on the same page, what does 'woke' mean to you? Because as far as I know it has nothing to do with political or economic philosophy. To me, It's just a kind of over-reacting obsession with social justice issues, involving well- meaning but sometimes misguided people.
What do you say 'woke' means?

Well according to Wikipedia: "Woke is a term, originating in the United States, that originally referred to awareness about racial prejudice and discrimination. It subsequently came to encompass an awareness of other issues of social inequality, for instance, regarding gender and sexual orientation. Since the late 2010s, it has also been used as a general term for left-wing political movements and perspectives emphasizing the identity politics of people of color, LGBT people, and women.""

So the BLM and Antifa folks see themselves as woke and seek to impose their American-style of identity politics and socialism on those who do not share their dubious ideology. If that means riots, murdering cops, destroying businesses, silencing or "cancelling" those who do not share their cult-like ideology they are good with that. Most of the woke folks see free enterprise as evil and free speech and other individual liberties sort of the way the Taliban do. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Hum, seems you want to extol the virtue of Norway now instead of Sweden. Well FYI Norway has a huge sovereign wealth fund that continues to grow. It was not derived from high taxes but largely derived from its North Sea petroleum reserves. As a result this sovereign wealth fund helps fund a generous welfare state without the high taxes that would seriously undermine capitalism and individual liberty. Alaska actually is the only state that pays its residents instead of taxing them. Alaska derives those funds from selling its petroleum reserves like Norway does.

Or Sweden, if you prefer. Living conditions in Sweden are better on average than in the US.

Where's the dire consequences? Where's the Swedish gulag? Where's the mass starvation?