StridentPolemic
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This is not a good case for disproving the existence of God.
This video is a makes a good case for proving that Abrahamic-religions were created and written by people no different from you or me; that they probably imagined or created their version of God, rather than scribe honest testimony. The Old Testament God has the personality of the average man living at that time, just as the Qu'ran vision of God has the personality of people living in that time and place.
I'm actually a closer to being a Deist than an Agnostic. I believe proof of an Intelligent Designer can be found in nature itself, and can be seen and examined through science and critical thought. It's absurd to think that illiterate or delusional people living thousands of years ago can tell me more about "God" than simply beholding the world of all Creation with my own eyes.
Just to clarify the word "monotheistic" means "One Diety," or "One God." So, no... technically a "religious" vision of God and "monotheism" are not necessarily the same thing.The aim of the video only claims to show how improbable a monotheistic god (religious god) is, explaining what else you have to believe, in order to accept it, hence the title of the thread and video, so no argument there. We agree that it demolishes the idea that a religious god is probable or plausible.
The word "deist" means someone who believes in a God, without subscribing to religion.I'd be curious, however, to learn how you arrived at the belief there is a deist god simply by looking at things, though.
The death of a star or planet is not "nothing." In the universe, matter is transformed into energy and energy is transformed into matter.Although I'm open to arguments about deism, I have my doubts about it as well. We know nothingness is coming, we know death of our entire planet is one day assured (Andromeda galaxy in collision course with our own, also the sun will inevitably get too close)
Life and death and transformation are simply the laws of nature. I don't think that's "proof" that the system itself was not "designed" by a thinking force. On the contrary.so that alone casts some doubt on the idea.
I agree.But if there is a kind of artificer or ultimate creator, I certainly can't imagine it's the Sistine chapel envisioned bearded robed man in the sky. I could easier envision an alien race as our universe's designer.
How did you reach such a conclusion?Usually, deist arguments come off as discomfort over ignorance about the nature of the universe around us. Because some people are uncomfortable not knowing how things work, they insert some form of god into the equation to make it all seem a bit more plausible, but that really has nothing to do with how things actually work and everything to do with making ourselves feel better about it.
Admiring physical reality and life whilst turning off one's thoughts is quite an enlightening experience. Try it sometime.The whole "look at the trees" mentality really does nothing to understand the true nature of reality, how it came into being, etc.
Again, where are you coming up with this? I see little more than assumptions.It's a feel-good patch designed to say "aha! I've figured it all out, now I don't have to think about it anymore!" But in reality, doing so simply makes you stop looking for the real answers because in your mind, you've already found them.
Imagine what life would be like if people ceased becoming so heavily entrenched in their positionalities.Imagine how life would be today if medicine had stopped looking for cures to disease by saying "all disease is caused by demons"?
Just to clarify the word "monotheistic" means "One Diety," or "One God." So, no... technically a "religious" vision of God and "monotheism" are not necessarily the same thing.
The word "deist" means someone who believes in a God, without subscribing to religion.
Many of our Founding Fathers were deists, such as Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin. People living in America at that time were escaping religious persecution from the Church of England (as well as the tyranny of the British crown). Deists simply believe in an Intelligent Designer, or Creative Origin, or Mother Nature, or whatever you want to call it. Some intelligent force that set the universe in motion. The "evidence" can be seen in the intelligent decisions made in evolution, in plant and animal eco-systems, in the perfection of mathematics and physics--the 'magic' of thought itself. The seemingly "designed" patterns in the world and beyond. But as I said, I'm also partial to Agnostic beliefs, since the evidence isn't "overwhelming." But it's there.
By definition, any "God" in any philosophy would be "alien" to the planet Earth, since it did not originate here. So either way, an "alien" intelligence is behind it all.
Get my drift?
This doesn't give a decent reason for anything...
I really love the "atheist countries are better off" strawman.
God extends a helping hand for those looking for one. How are you reaching the conclusion that God has ignored us for 100,000 years?Good. So you're able to answer how god didn't avail himself in the lives of millions spanning 100,000 years or more. Love to hear it.
Karmic propensities decide where one incarnates.Also, it seems you've figured out this god's motives for creating a situation where people choose their religions on an accident of where they're born. This should be interesting.
How are you reaching the conclusion that God has ignored us for 100,000 years?
I guess you didn't actually watch the video.
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I'm posting from my phone and it's video streaming ability is disappointing, to say the least.
However, my question was directed at you and how you reached your conclusion.
Nope. "Alien" simply means something not originating from here.technically, if alien life created it, it would not be alien because it was created by so called "alien intelligence" so would the "intelligence" not be akin to us?
You can look like a human and still originate from another planet.if we were designed by "alien intelligence" would the aliens not be like us? and why would the aliens make us differently? God made us in his image. Easy answer.
I'm posting from my phone and it's video streaming ability is disappointing, to say the least.
However, my question was directed at you and how you reached your conclusion.
Fair enough. I thought there was some confusion about that, my mistake."Theism" creates the religious context here. The god goes from being inaccessible (the deist's god), to being a god professed to be known, dictated through theology in theism.
I'm quite familiar with the difference between deism and theism. I authored this list: Why There Is No Theistic God
I don't think you really understand my position on the subject.I'm sorry but nothing about this is compelling to sell me on the idea of a creator entity/conscious artificer. It's more of the same as you said before. Because we're accustomed to being able to attribute things to a maker, lights, chairs, cars, etc. the natural impulse is to explain that we got here by design. Because things seem so complex to you personally, or you can't imagine any other way, doesn't make it any more plausible that there is a creator.
Again, don't pretend you have a magic window into other peoples thought-process. I'll correct you: what I'm doing is speculating.You're projecting your subjective perceptions and representations of reality onto a scientific question that doesn't benefit from subjective views, or wish-thinking.
Alright with me.This is a fair point. I would agree here, but have still yet to see more plausibility added to the supposition of a creator. I think if we better defined what a creator was we might find we're talking about the same thing when it comes to creation. It might be more helpful to throw out the word "god" altogether. It carries too much mythological baggage with it than is helpful.
Maybe you ought to get somewhere that you can watch the video before you start asking people things based on it.
The Hitchens hypothesis you're unwittingly referring to explains how in order to be a theist (in this instance he's referring to the monotheist's god of Abraham *Any adherent of the "big 3" religions) you have to believe that man, humans, walking upright on the planet for at least 100,000 years before the advent of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, before the Bronze Age, never got a god. In other words, since the god of the Jews, Christians and Muslims wasn't around until 2000-4000 years ago (respective each religion), then that god couldn't have availed himself to humans before then, which is at least 100,000 years (likely longer than that even). This is a problem if you want to believe you're dealing with an omniscient, benevolent god, who cares what religions you follow. It makes belief in Judaism, Christianity and Islam ludicrous. In Hitchens' words "It can't be believed by a thinking person."
Good. So you're able to answer how god didn't avail himself in the lives of millions spanning 100,000 years or more. Love to hear it.
Also, it seems you've figured out this god's motives for creating a situation where people choose their religions on an accident of where they're born. This should be interesting.
I think you should forget the straw man claim, and acknowledge the red herring you're introducing here. The two major problems the tenability of monotheism faces that I posed to you above make up the crux of the video.
But indulging your somewhat strange sidestep for a moment, Harris' point was that all relevant factors that concern life are better in Western European countries. They still stand. Not sure why you'd introduce Japan. It isn't in Western Europe.
But since we're on suicides by country (per capita) you may want to look here: List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A single person difference on average annually between Norway and the US isn't worth mentioning, especially considering so much more of Norway is rural, isolated, etc. ie: I would have expected more.
The kicker here is even if we were to say all of these suicides were caused by a religion or lack of it, which of course they're not, the top country on the list is a Christian country (80% population is Eastern Orthodox). I can't imagine how you'd see that would help your argument.
Exactly. God was before all. There would not be any planet, universe, galaxy, etc without Him. and why would the aliens "look" like humans if they were not. Find life on another planet and/or find any alien writings to verify this "alien intelligence". I have my Bible (which actually has serious historical and scientific proof backing it up) so with your seemingly easy "counter arguments" try to irrefutably back up you ideals please. Waiting for it =)Nope. "Alien" simply means something not originating from here.
People born in Canada are "aliens" when they come to America.
You can look like a human and still originate from another planet.
Easy counter-argument. "God" wasn't born on Earth in any religion or belief system.
This doesn't give a decent reason for anything, except of course to say people who think this is a decent reason to believe anything are gullible.
I really love the "atheist countries are better off" strawman. Sure, you know let's just ignore that many of the same countries have higher suicide rates. Japan is primarily atheist and their suicide rate is so high it is by itself higher than the U.S. suicide rate and homicide rate combined, amazingly the fact they have essentially no access to guns whatsoever doesn't stop them.
Also, you should totally ignore any and all deeply religious countries that are right up there with them in rate of development.
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