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Why my parents just got arrested in Madison, WI

Simon W. Moon said:
The article mentions that there were hundreds of dismissed citations.
That interests me.

What were the citations for I wonder.
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This seems to be an ever-increasing scenario. Issue a boatload of citations and arrests, then they get dismissed or the people released later. The cynical part of me believes this is an intentional intimidation tactic.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
The fake part would be that they were trying to make things look worse than it really was. They were engaging in a planned operation that manipulates the the authorities to make them look like they are acting like a fascist state.
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There's a really easy way for the authorities to fox the protesters attmepts at making them look like fascists, and that is to not act like fascists. Either people have the right to peaceful protest or they don't. Clearly in Wisconsin, that's a right that has been taken away.
 

In theory I agree with you.



If I showed up everyday at a just about any public building and sang a tune at noon, sooner or later someone would complain. If I got enough complaints the person in charge of the building would need to do something. It wouldnt matter what I was singing (well unless I was using profanity). The protesters and supporters are simply using their own bias to ignore basic common sense. My common sense tells me that eventually if I were to duplicate what these people are doing that I would end up getting sited for it. All the protesters need to do is not have more than 20 protesters and then no permit is required.

A fascist state wouldnt allow any protesters at all and would dispense any that tried. There would be beatings and deaths. And the state ran media wouldnt have told us anything about it. And if they did they would have lied and said things like 'Armed terrorists try to attack the rotunda killing dozens blah blah blah'. If you think what is going on in Madison is fascism then you need to learn a lot more about fascism. That being said I dont like Walker and most of what he does, but I dont live in that state so that isnt my fight. I have my own governor to deal with here in New Mexico.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
A fascist state wouldnt allow any protesters at all and would dispense any that tried. There would be beatings and deaths.
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You know that not everybody who speaks out in a fascist state gets offed, don't you? Franco's Spain, Perón's Argentina, even in Mussolini's Italy there were protest movements and opposition groups and they weren't all liquidated. You don't have to take things to the ultimate extreme for them to be facets of a fascistic attitude.
 

So you are claiming what exactly, that Wisconsin is a fascist state o do you just perceive that some people have fascistic attitude?


The title fascism isnt seriously used much anymore for the fact that it is just a form of Godwin's law. The people that do throw that word around usually are hyper partisans or at the very least wanting to sensationalize and alienate a side. Make the situation appear to be dire and needing of direct immediate action to stave off disaster. That means if one is going to accuse a government of being fascist they need more than innuendo and biased opinions. Take those solidarity singers for example their goal is nothing short of a political take over caused by manipulating tools that buy into accusations of fascism and the likes.

So which definition of fascism are you using? Or is it just that some actions seem fascist? And that it would help a certain movement if people viewed those actions as fascist?

Again I will point out that I am not a walker supporter, hell Im not even a political party supporter. From my point of view the guilty are walker, political parties and the protesters. Most likely Wisconsin would be better off without all of them there.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
So you are claiming what exactly, that Wisconsin is a fascist state o do you just perceive that some people have fascistic attitude?
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I'm just saying they are behaving somewhat fascistically towards a bunch of elderly, peaceful protesters who have every right to protest. They are infringing on their right to free speech and free assembly. Am I saying Wisconsin is a fascist state? Don't be so silly!


That's hilarious. Do you always get so hysterical about peaceful protest. Saying that what they are doing is 'a political take-over' is exactly the sort of excuse that Erdogan used in Istanbul last month and that Mubarak used against the peaceful gatherings in Tahrir Square. Pretending that a peaceful protest is the same as an attempted coup d'etat is the tactic of demagogues everywhere, just not usually in the USA.
 
What is Mubarak doing now? Thats right he was ousted some would call what happened to him a political take over. Now dont jump to insane conclusions by that observation. I never supported the guy nor Erdogan (or walker). So you trying to align me with them was very fallacious. Which took your argument down a notch or two. *not to mention you calling me hysterical



Ok lets explore who and what these protesters are up to.

What are they protesting? Is it politically motivated?
1. Save AFT Wisconsin
2. They want Walker ousted.

3. but most people seemed to have forgotten what the protest was about and now they concentrate on free speech and the right to assemble.


Who are the protesters?

Solidairty sing along action members belong too: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...gmJfKfctskWcRFMiA&sig2=c2ZDFkYYjGcznTGkrbyanQ

https://www.facebook.com/SolidaritySingAlong/info

Which isnt just a group of elderly concerned citizens. Your description is entirely misleading.

Here this is from their site:


And here is a list of all of the organizations http://www.wnpj.org/pdf/directory2010.pdf

It turns out that a lot of these groups that make up the membership of Wisconsin Network for Peace and Justice are not just politically left but far left at that.

And as it turns out they do indeed have a replacement in mind for walker obviously that would be none other than Peter Barca (see their facebook)

I just love their very leftist logo here


Bottom line its a political movement that wants a leftist government to replace the one that we have.
 

It matters not one jot whether they are far left or far right, unless you intend that normal civil rights may only be claimed by those of whose politics you approve. I notice you're not trying to claim that they have been using violence and as far as I can see they've been breaking no laws.

The fact is that most concerted protest movements want change, want perhaps to change policies or change administrations. So what? Isn't that the only reason for political action anyway? What you appear to be saying is that what they want is unacceptable to you, it's okay to prevent them from protesting. I do hope you don't have the temerity to claim to believe in free speech. Your post reads like something from a reds under the bed witch hunt. "I'm Joe McCarthy and I approve this message".

I just love their very leftist logo here
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It's funny how right-wingers loved that logo when the Poles were using it against the Soviets. Back then, according to one R. Reagan it was "a beacon of hope and resistence to tyranny". Now solidarity appears to have gone out of fashion. That you write a post like the one above and still think that you are some kind of moderate shows just how out of whack the American political spectrum is with the rest of the world.
 
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Well I am not a walker (or a Republican/tea partier) supporter so of course Im not toting that line.

Some people see it as a fight for civil rights and some do not. Either way all public building have rules which the public must obey. If those rules are not Constitutional then that is up to the courts (as we have already seen). And that means that the system isnt broken there are Constitutional rights.

AH yes pull out the Joe McCarthy attack, of gee you really got me there.

Guess what no one stopped anyone from protesting, you just want everyone to believe thats what happened. Last I looked the sing alongs are still happening on the days planned in fact if they were to buy a permit they could have even more people there. Yoiu are sensationalizing this to make it appear that the government is fascist its hyperbole nonsense.


I am not a moderate that is just your assumption. I am a unaffiliated voter nothing more nothing less. I pick and choose what I feel is right I dont try to fit into some cookie cutter ideology. I never liked Reagan or hell just about any president. So make up word games all you want it has nothing to do with me as a individual. I equally dont like socialism and a slew of other failed philosophies (including all religions).

I guess you had no defense for the fact that the entire sing along/occupy is an entirely onesided leftist thing that you had to move to attacking me accusing me of of McCarthyism being a bad moderate closet right winger to steer me away from the fact you had no argument against what I said?

Guess what I have the liberty and the freedom to like and dislike what I want. I also have the right to say what I want as well. You dont like it I get that but at least come up with something original. There is nothing wrong with me a American with Constitutional rights to reject a Leftist movement that operates by trying to deceive fellow Americans and make it sound as if this country is fascist and to further try to say that they speak for me. ANd then If I disagree with that position they then tell me that I am locking arms with the enemy just because I dont support their leftist cause. I guess iuf aint with the leftist then I must be a right winger? Bwhahaha you couldnt be farther from the truth. ANd it would be truly funny if you werent all trying the same tactic over and over again. It is because of such behavior by Leftist that I hate their movement so much.

So go ahead keep telling me what I am it just builds my resolve.
 

Only you know what you are. All we here can know for sure is what you say and what you advocate. Without having to twist a single word we can surmise that:
  1. You believe that these protests are the exclusive preserve of the 'far left'.
  2. That you believe Walker is right in arresting people for peacefully protesting in a public place.
  3. That you believe that there is something subversive in arguing for the right of union organisation.
  4. That you believe that people who believe in alternatives to militarism, prison reform, sustainable agriculture, renewable energy and immigrants' rights are "not just politically left but far left at that."
  5. That you equate a peaceful, daily sing-along in the state capitol's rotunda with an attempt to overthrow the state.
  6. You think that because the protests persist, that "Guess what no one stopped anyone from protesting, you just want everyone to believe thats what happened." Well, that article in the OP makes it very clear that at least 22 people were forcibly stopped from protesting

Even if it were an exclusively left-wing protest, which I don't buy for a second, then the McCarthy analogy would be even more apt than it was already. He used the same tactic you are using by claiming that anything may be legitimately supressed if it smacks of left-wing politics.

The only assumptions I'm making about your politics from your arguments here is that you believe that the State has the right to supress with physical force protests it finds annoying. To me that is authoritarian and fascistic. I'm not saying the state of Wisconsin is a fascist state, just that its governor appears to be using the coercive power of his office to limit freedom of expression.
 
And the sing-alongs in the Wisconsin Capitol goes on.

Update:

Aug.6,2013




Read more:

Another 22 singers cited as Wisconsin Capitol protest crackdown goes on | Star Tribune
 
1 through 6 you got wrong, I would explain each one to you but I doubt that you would listen. I guess though that you missed that part where I have repeatable asserted that I do not support walker or anything that he has done? But to you I did, which says everything to me. It says that it honesty isnt your strong point.

The thing that gets me though is that leftists like yourself believe that lying in someones face is a good tactic. Seriously I know what i said and I know what I think, you trying to paint a dishonest picture and demanding that I must be that way is a extremely ineffective way to convince me that your claims are worth listening too. It tells me that dishonesty is rampant in the left just as it is in the right. Which is why both sides is loosing public support.


Damn you just dont quit with the dishonest crap do you? I never claimed a allegiance with that idiot walker. Never even came close to anything that you are saying that I said.

What I did say though is that nothing is being suppressed. This protest has been going on for a couple years now and the only time we hear about it nationally is when people get arrested. WHich is why protesters try to get arrested so that it will be on the news. Its a old tactic. Dont try to pretend that no one knows that tactic.

People dont show up religiously for a couple years to sing in the rotunda because they dont want attention. They want the attention so that their message gets out. And getting arrested does that job well. That is the main plan of the occupiers.

Lets go to the source Mass Civil Disobedience Sing Along at Wisconsin Capitol of this on going political action called the solidarity sing along.

Face it right wingers do not run around with their left fist in the air. My point is that the protest at the rotunda in Madison is entirely a leftist endeavor. I am opposed to such movements not because they are leftist but because they fight for ideological dominance. Just the same you dont see anyone but right wingers and far rightists at tea party protests, again my distaste if for ideological dominance movements. SO when you try to place me into one of those sides I find your argument lets just say lacking.

I support the concept of workers joining together to hash out labor deals with their employers. But modern labor unions are not representative of the workers. They quickly became just another bureaucracy screwing over the worker. I cant blindly support labor unions knowing their history of corruption and poor performance. That doesnt mean that I think that labor doesnt deserve better. ANd it by no way means that I am on that idiot walkers side. The problem with protests like in Madison is that their goal isnt really just to help workers it intends to change the government to a biased political model. And they dont give a **** at all about what the voters actually want. If they did they would be courting the voters not alienating them by taking over the voters public building. I mean in 2014 walker is up for reelection. If the protesters want to oust walker they need votes to do that. But they think that singing about it in the rotunda is going to gain those votes because of the arrests. The tactic is to make walker look like a dictator which is why you have used words like fascist and mentioned actual dictators to try and relate them to walker. ANd the tactic is obvious in some of the movements websites like this one: Solidarity Singers | Scott Walker Watch


Perhaps though after the court looks at the Constitutional issues on Jan 13th things will change? Its odd though here we have due process playing out but none of the supporters seem to be really wanting to talk about that.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
1 through 6 you got wrong, I would explain each one to you but I doubt that you would listen.
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Why don't I help you do it in your own words:

1. You believe that these protests are the exclusive preserve of the 'far left'. Proof: from this very post: "Face it right wingers do not run around with their left fist in the air. My point is that the protest at the rotunda in Madison is entirely a leftist endeavor." Did I get that wrong?

2. That you believe Walker is right in arresting people for peacefully protesting in a public place.
From Post #128: "If I showed up everyday at a just about any public building and sang a tune at noon, sooner or later someone would complain. If I got enough complaints the person in charge of the building would need to do something." So, you're saying Walker needed 'to do something'. If not having the protesters arrested, what else are you suggesting he should have done?

3. That you believe that there is something subversive in arguing for the right of union organisation.
From this post: "But modern labor unions are not representative of the workers. They quickly became just another bureaucracy screwing over the worker. I cant blindly support labor unions knowing their history of corruption and poor performance." I think that has been precisely Walkers line throughout his tussles with the AFL. So, if you don't think they represent the workers any more, what do you believe is their function? And is it subversive or not?

4. That you believe that people who believe in alternatives to militarism, prison reform, sustainable agriculture, renewable energy and immigrants' rights are "not just politically left but far left at that." I don't think I need to cite anything else. That's a direct quote from you at the end btw., from Post #132. If I'm wrong on that then clearly you are not in control of what your own fingers are typing.

5. That you equate a peaceful, daily sing-along in the state capitol's rotunda with an attempt to overthrow the state.
From Post #132: "Which isnt just a group of elderly concerned citizens. Your description is entirely misleading.... Bottom line its a political movement that wants a leftist government to replace the one that we have." Note the "we" here. Who is 'we'? You've already said you're in NM, half a continent away, and you've been very adamant that you have no pony in the Wisconsin race. So, you see it as a movement with wider ambitions than Wisconsin. Perhaps the Solidarity Singers want to overthrow the federal government too. I don't think I was wrong in invoking the memory of reds under the bed scare tactics.

6. You think that because the protests persist, that "Guess what no one stopped anyone from protesting, you just want everyone to believe thats what happened." Well, that article in the OP makes it very clear that at least 22 people were forcibly stopped from protesting. So, if the purpose of the arrests isn't to prevent the protesters from protesting, what was it for? As I said before and repeat, just because the protesters persist does not mean that the authorities aren't attempting to stop them.

I think I got 1 through 6 absolutely right and this is the proof. I've never claimed you are a Walker supporter, just that you have supported some of his arguments and tactics. I've no doubt you think him an idiot, but you clearly have a far harsher judgement of the Solidarity Singers. You don't seem to me to be taking a very independent line on this at all.
 
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Even though I think Scott Walker has done a wonderful job in Wisconsin. I think the big government statists who want to gather in the capital building shouldn't need a permit to do it.
 
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