Why is the life of someone in Gaza more important than anywhere else? [W:13]

[Sababa]

Recently, there has been harsh criticism and protest of Israel's actions to attempt to stop the daily rocket attacks from Gaza that have been going on for years. The new found furor over this was the kidnap and killing of 3 Jewish teens by people loyal to Hamas. The world stood in shock as Hamas cheered their kidnap and death. It shone a light on a problem that had been ongoing and disruptive for Israelis and people visiting the land. Rockets were a normal way of life. Asking anyone who lives in southern Israel and I bet they can tell you where the nearest bomb shelter is at any given moment. But the 2 to 3 times daily rocket attacks stepped up when Israel decided the PA wasn't doing enough to secure the return of the 3 teens and went into the West Bank to root out Hamas and find the boys. They were dead sparking an immediate and emotional response world wide. Then a group of yahoos from Israel attacked and killed a Palestinian boy and we had a new equation. Peace advocates on both sides called for calm and a chance to resolve this and Hamas stepped up their rocket campaign to which Israel responded with bombings.

Now here is the thing, whenever Israel responds the world notices and suddenly it is called genocide. Mostly that is done by the mind-numblingly ignorant of what genocide is. You see genocide is a systematic destruction or uprooting of a people. If Israel was committing genocide then why are they sending in humanitarian aid? Why are they warning the Palestinians of both where they will bomb and that they were going to move in with ground troops? Why do they treat Palestinian injured in their hospitals? Why do they allow pro-Palestinian parties to serve in elected office? Seems like a pretty dumb genocide.

But more to that would fall on deaf ears.

But here is the question: Where were those people who march in Berlin, Washington, London and Paris who are claiming this is a human rights issue when genocide is actually going on in places in the world? If they care about people and not just attacking Israel or for some by extension all Jews, then why aren't you working to stop the systematic genocide in Syria? Iraq? Parts of Africa? Where are you trying to save the lives of the people of South and Central America? It is clear that if you truly wanted to have your voice heard you should be making noise at many places around the world where the oppressed aren't elected to office and build beachfront resorts.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Manc Skipper]

In what form of morality is the killing of over 200 children "Unimaginable restraint?"

 

[Serenity]

Moderator's Warning:

Thread moved to the ME Forum. ML is now in effect.

 

[CJ 2.0]

In what form of morality is the killing of over 200 children "Unimaginable restraint?"

you got a source for that?

And how exactly are you classifying the 16 year old terrorists who infiltrated Israel through tunnels to murder school children or the 13 year old suicide bomber who rushed Israeli soldiers?

 

[Serenity]

Why is the life of someone in Gaza more important than anywhere else?

It's not.

The life of someone in Gaza is not more important than anyone else. It's EQUAL to any other civilian life in ANY country. It's clear that some on both sides of the debate feel that one life is more worthy than the other, but it is not. I am obviously not talking about combatants here, i am talking about all innocent civilians dead as a result of this conflict. Each innocent life lost is just as valuable as the other.

 

[CJ 2.0]

It's not.

The life of someone in Gaza is not more important than anyone else. It's EQUAL to any other civilian life in ANY country. It's clear that some on both sides of the debate feel that one life is more worthy than the other, but it is not. I am obviously not talking about combatants here, i am talking about all innocent civilians dead as a result of this conflict. Each innocent life lost is just as valuable as the other.

Serenity, I don't think anyone doubts your sincerity. I think what the opening poster is pointing out is that Palestinian civilian casualties always generate more vehemence, more denunciations, than civilian casualties in Syria or Iraq or elsewhere. It is pointing out the rather obvious thing that while undoubtedly you would still care, most "pro-Palestinians" so tied up into knots about this conflict would care far, far less if it were the Jordanians or the Egyptians that were fighting against Hamas in Gaza and the Jews were not in the picture.

He could point to the horrible, horrible things done to millions of people of palestinian descent kept stateless and in internment camps in lebanon and elsewhere, about the hundreds of thousands cleansed from Kuwait, about the Jordanian army killing more Palestinian civilians in a month in 1970 than Israel has ever killed, and draw a distinction that the only thing that makes so many of these people care about Palestinian civilian casualties in this conflict is that the Jews are on the other side, fighting to protect their citizens and their independence from an enemy who has never stopped trying to undo what was done in 1948.

And he would not be wrong.

 

[joG]

....Where were those people who march in Berlin, Washington, London and Paris who are claiming this is a human rights issue when genocide is actually going on in places in the world? If they care about people and not just attacking Israel or for some by extension all Jews, then why aren't you working to stop the systematic genocide in Syria? Iraq? Parts of Africa? Where are you trying to save the lives of the people of South and Central America? It is clear that if you truly wanted to have your voice heard you should be making noise at many places around the world where the oppressed aren't elected to office and build beachfront resorts.

Or am I missing something?

You are missing something. Most of the demonstrators have anti Israeli and many even anti Jewish sentiments. A few are peaceniks that hate people trying to enforce security as warmongers. You would be surprised how many of this latter type live in Europe. But mostly the demonstrators are less stupid and benign.

 

[hammer2]

Just look at the UN's response to Israel over the years and compare. If you knew nothing of world events you would think Israel was comparable to any past tyrant bent on world domination.


Wonder if there would be a cry for the Jooos if the Arabs were actually able to win every once in a while?

 

[Serenity]

Serenity, I don't think anyone doubts your sincerity. I think what the opening poster is pointing out is that Palestinian civilian casualties always generate more vehemence, more denunciations, than civilian casualties in Syria or Iraq or elsewhere. It is pointing out the rather obvious thing that while undoubtedly you would still care, most "pro-Palestinians" so tied up into knots about this conflict would care far, far less if it were the Jordanians or the Egyptians that were fighting against Hamas in Gaza and the Jews were not in the picture.

He could point to the horrible, horrible things done to millions of people of palestinian descent kept stateless and in internment camps in lebanon and elsewhere, about the hundreds of thousands cleansed from Kuwait, about the Jordanian army killing more Palestinian civilians in a month in 1970 than Israel has ever killed, and draw a distinction that the only thing that makes so many of these people care about Palestinian civilian casualties in this conflict is that the Jews are on the other side, fighting to protect their citizens and their independence from an enemy who has never stopped trying to undo what was done in 1948.

And he would not be wrong.

I don't think it's fair to say "most" CJ but there absolutely are a lot of people who have jumped on the Pro-Palestinian band wagon because they think it's the "cool" thing to do or to use the Palestinian people whilst pretending to support them to mask their hatred of Israel and her people. They do a terrible job of it and are very transparent, that is undeniable. Personally i despise people like that because their behaviour makes it so difficult for discussion to stay on track and evolve into positive discussions for those that do have a genuine desire to hopefully one day see a peaceful resolution between the two parties.

It doesn't hurt everyone to be a little self-critical, to take a step back and realise that the way they discuss Israel and the Palestinians, in some instances, will create an ugly enviroment. It's an emotional subject for many and we would be a lot better off if those that honestly didn't give a rats about the people involved for the right reasons would stay out of the discussions.

 

[brothern]

Or am I missing something?

... who have jumped on the Pro-Palestinian band wagon because they think it's the "cool" thing to do or to use the Palestinian people whilst pretending to support them to mask their hatred of Israel and her people.

Israel is a first world nation and Palestine is not.

Rich guy starts kicking a hobo in the face in the street. What's the response?

 

[CJ 2.0]

I don't think it's fair to say "most" CJ but there absolutely are a lot of people who have jumped on the Pro-Palestinian band wagon because they think it's the "cool" thing to do or to use the Palestinian people whilst pretending to support them to mask their hatred of Israel and her people.

See, I actually think it is most. These folks don't really care about the Palestinians because they never, ever stand up for the Palestinians. Except when they get to stand up to the Jews.

Now I know a good chunk of those aren't explicitly lining up to oppose Jewish efforts to protect themselves because of hatred for Jews. Many of them do it because they are reactionary anti-Americans and have drawn a very close identity connection between the US and Israel (which I can't avoid concluding is in part because of classic anti-semetic beliefs about Jewish control).

But few if any of them are doing it because they actually give a damn about the Palestinians. Otherwise you would see them out every day protesting how Palestinians are treated in lebanon - held stateless for generation after generation in internment camps, how they are treated by gulf states, how they are treated by their own "leadership".

It is silence. Always silence. Until it is about the Jews.

They do a terrible job of it and are very transparent, that is undeniable. Personally i despise people like that because their behaviour makes it so difficult for discussion to stay on track and evolve into positive discussions for those that do have a genuine desire to hopefully one day see a peaceful resolution between the two parties.

Efforts by anti-Israel folks, like those we see on this forum and like we see continually in international fora, where everything Jews do to defend themselves is attacked and Palestinian depravity and war crimes are excused, is one of the prime drivers of continuation of this conflict. Because until the Palestinians reconcile to the Jews' continued control over Israel and reconcile to compromise, they have no chance of a better life for their children. And all of these world efforts by "pro-Palestinians" simply act to make Palestinian weillingness to compromise more remote.

It doesn't hurt everyone to be a little self-critical, to take a step back and realise that the way they discuss Israel and the Palestinians, in some instances, will create an ugly enviroment. It's an emotional subject for many and we would be a lot better off if those that honestly didn't give a rats about the people involved for the right reasons would stay out of the discussions.

They do care about the people. They care about the Jews having an indpeendent state and the Americans "oppressing" people or whatever. They just don't actually care about the Palestinians and certainly do not care enough to take a good look at the root cause of the problem and then start acting to advance policy that will be able to fix things.

 

[CJ 2.0]

By way of example and to build on my earlier post, following is a Jerusalem Post editorial:

End game | JPost | Israel News

It advocates that Israel needs to continue with its efforts to deal with these tunnels but that any long term solution that will spare Gaza civilians 2 or 3 or 4 years from now will need to involve a demilitarlization of Gaza. This would also allow aid and development effrots to flow into the territory, which will improve quality of like for people in Gaza and allow a more responsible party to take control and start ferrying Gaza's population to a more reasonable mindset.

This to me seems like a litmus test. If someone opposes this approach, I don't see how they can pretend they care even a little bit about Palestinian civilians. They are in this because they support the fight against the Jews. Nothing less.

 

[Serenity]

Moderator's Warning:

Moved to "Israel/Palestine/Hamas political debate and discussion specific to the current military activity" sub-forum.