Why I don't "understand" complaints about vaccine mandates

[BrotherFease]

The objection seems to involve around tribalism rather than sound reasoning. Mark me down as a "yes" for vaccine mandates and vaccine "passports".

Here me out people:

States require children to get vaccinated for at least 8 different vaccines to attend a school.

Your family dog/cat has to get their rabies shots every 3 years or so.

Hospital and nursing home employees have to get 8 different vaccines in order to work.

Everybody was required to get the Small Pox and Polio vaccine or have to pay fines.

Why is it bad to add a 9th or a 10th vaccine to the list? Covid is killing and hospitalizing people everyday.

 

[snakestretcher]

It's political now; Biden is in office so anything he does or says must therefore be automatically protested against, irrespective of its validity, by the opposition.

 

[Gaius46]

Well some of us don’t think the Federal government has the legal authority to mandate vaccines in certain circumstances and insuring that the government only does things it’s legally allowed to actually matters.

 

[snakestretcher]

Well some of us don’t think the Federal government has the legal authority to mandate vaccines in certain circumstances and insuring that the government only does things it’s legally allowed to actually matters.

Precedent informs us that your government does, in fact, have that authority.

A Supreme Court case that originated in Mass. could provide a legal precedent for President Biden’s vaccine mandates, experts say - The Boston Globe

In the wake of President Biden’s sweeping new federal vaccine mandates and claims by some Republican lawmakers that the rules are unconstitutional, experts say legal challenges to the measure are likely to be unsuccessful because of the precedent established by a century-old Massachusetts case.

www.bostonglobe.com

The U.S. Has A Long Precedent For Vaccine Mandates

NPR's Asma Khalid speaks to professor of global health law, Lawrence Gostin, about the history of vaccine mandates in the U.S.

www.npr.org

The Surprisingly Strong Supreme Court Precedent Supporting Vaccine Mandates

In 1905, the high court made a fateful ruling with eerie parallels to today: One person’s liberty can’t trump everyone else’s.

www.politico.com

 

[BrotherFease]

Well some of us don’t think the Federal government has the legal authority to mandate vaccines in certain circumstances and insuring that the government only does things it’s legally allowed to actually matters.

Biden's mandates only pertains to people who do business with the federal government.

 

[Gaius46]

Precedent informs us that the government does, in fact, have that authority.

A Supreme Court case that originated in Mass. could provide a legal precedent for President Biden’s vaccine mandates, experts say - The Boston Globe

In the wake of President Biden’s sweeping new federal vaccine mandates and claims by some Republican lawmakers that the rules are unconstitutional, experts say legal challenges to the measure are likely to be unsuccessful because of the precedent established by a century-old Massachusetts case.

www.bostonglobe.com

The U.S. Has A Long Precedent For Vaccine Mandates

NPR's Asma Khalid speaks to professor of global health law, Lawrence Gostin, about the history of vaccine mandates in the U.S.

www.npr.org

The Surprisingly Strong Supreme Court Precedent Supporting Vaccine Mandates

In 1905, the high court made a fateful ruling with eerie parallels to today: One person’s liberty can’t trump everyone else’s.

www.politico.com

I’m aware of Jacobson. That gave a state the authority to mandate vaccines within a state and would similarly give the Federal government the ability to mandate vaccines on Federal land.

That’s all well and good but the employer mandate can’t be authorized by that because companies by and large reside on state land, not Federal land. For the employer mandate the Feds are using the emergency power that OSHA had under the OSHA law. That has never been used for a pathogen and it’s very much an open question whether that use is legal.

 

[Gaius46]

Biden's mandates only pertains to people who do business with the federal government.

No it doesn’t. The mandate for employers who have more than 100 employees applies to all employers regardless of whether they do business with the feds or not.

 

[snakestretcher]

I’m aware of Jacobson. That gave a state the authority to mandate vaccines within a state and would similarly give the Federal government the ability to mandate vaccines on Federal land.

That’s all well and good but the employer mandate can’t be authorized by that because companies by and large reside on state land, not Federal land. For the employer mandate the Feds are using the emergency power that OSHA had under the OSHA law. That has never been used for a pathogen and it’s very much an open question whether that use is legal.

Yes, and I expect many long, drawn-out and convoluted legal arguments from both sides should a mandate be considered. We'll see.

 

[Blue Dog]

The virus was politicized. All issues stem from that starting point.

 

[Gaius46]

Yes, and I expect many long, drawn-out and convoluted legal arguments from both sides should a mandate be considered. We'll see.

Agree.

 

[CaughtInThe]

It's political and the extremists are dying.

We can't help them.

 

[code1211]

The objection seems to involve around tribalism rather than sound reasoning. Mark me down as a "yes" for vaccine mandates and vaccine "passports".

Here me out people:

States require children to get vaccinated for at least 8 different vaccines to attend a school.

Your family dog/cat has to get their rabies shots every 3 years or so.

Hospital and nursing home employees have to get 8 different vaccines in order to work.

Everybody was required to get the Small Pox and Polio vaccine or have to pay fines.

Why is it bad to add a 9th or a 10th vaccine to the list? Covid is killing and hospitalizing people everyday.

This vaccine is not actually a vaccine. it's more like an inoculation. It does not endow immunity like that given by the polio vaccine. Just enhanced resistance.

It is not legal to inject this into kids. Seems odd, but there it is.

Is the Flu "Vaccine" mandatory? This seems to be closer to a parallel.

The most damaging problems rising from Covid nationally are the results of the responses to slow the spread of the virus by government, not the virus itself.

I have chosen to be inoculated. I am not certain that the government has the authority to force compliance on this matter.

 

[CaughtInThe]

This vaccine is not actually a vaccine. it's more like an inoculation. It does not endow immunity like that given by the polio vaccine. Just enhanced resistance.

It is not legal to inject this into kids. Seems odd, but there it is.

Is the Flu "Vaccine" mandatory? This seems to be closer to a parallel.

The most damaging problems rising from Covid nationally are the results of the responses to slow the spread of the virus by government, not the virus itself.

Yeah, the problem isn't that COVID is killing a whole shit load of humans it's that our government is mandating vaccines so that it won't kill as many humans.

Do you remember the year you became an extremist?

 

[Artymoon]

Do you remember the year you became an extremist?

So forcing people to put something into their body against their will is not extreme? That would have been called tyrannical a short time ago...

 

[CaughtInThe]

So forcing people to put something into their body against their will is not extreme? That would have been called tyrannical a short time ago...

i'll let you read this and then let you answer...



Statewide, Texas students in kindergarten-12th grade are required to be vaccinated against:

• Diphtheria/tetanus/pertussis
• Polio
• Measles/mumps/rubella
• Hepatitis A and B and
• Varicella
• After a student turns 11, they are required to be vaccinated against meningococcal meningitis.

 

[Artymoon]

i'll let you read this and then let you answer...



Statewide, Texas students in kindergarten-12th grade are required to be vaccinated against:

• Diphtheria/tetanus/pertussis
• Polio
• Measles/mumps/rubella
• Hepatitis A and B and
• Varicella
• After a student turns 11, they are required to be vaccinated against meningococcal meningitis.

And in most states you can opt out of the vaccines for medical, religious and philosophical reasons. But most people (myself included) will take them as they have a long history of known benefits and effects.

By comparison, this shot doesn't prevent you from getting Covid anymore than the Flu shot prevents you from getting the Flu. Also, there is little known about mid to long term effects. But sure, add me to your list of extremists.

 

[Gaius46]

This vaccine is not actually a vaccine. it's more like an inoculation. It does not endow immunity like that given by the polio vaccine. Just enhanced resistance.

It is not legal to inject this into kids. Seems odd, but there it is.

Is the Flu "Vaccine" mandatory? This seems to be closer to a parallel.

The most damaging problems rising from Covid nationally are the results of the responses to slow the spread of the virus by government, not the virus itself.

I have chosen to be inoculated. I am not certain that the government has the authority to force compliance on this matter.

You’re misunderstand the terms. The CDC and WHO both give the accepted definitions of the terms on their websites.

No vaccine gives immunity. All vaccines stimulate the body to produce an immune response. So yes the covid vaccine is a vaccine.

 

[Visbek]

The objection seems to involve around tribalism rather than sound reasoning.

Yeah, that's about half of it.

The other half is that historically, Americans have been reluctant to deal properly with pandemics and new vaccines.

 

[snakestretcher]

This vaccine is not actually a vaccine. it's more like an inoculation. It does not endow immunity like that given by the polio vaccine. Just enhanced resistance.

It is not legal to inject this into kids. Seems odd, but there it is.

Is the Flu "Vaccine" mandatory? This seems to be closer to a parallel.

The most damaging problems rising from Covid nationally are the results of the responses to slow the spread of the virus by government, not the virus itself.

I have chosen to be inoculated. I am not certain that the government has the authority to force compliance on this matter.

Vaccination and inoculation are used interchangeably for the same procedure...

Vaccination vs. Immunization vs. Inoculation: What's the Difference?

If we’re being pedantic here (and we are), ‘vaccination’ and ‘immunization’ shouldn't be used interchangeably.

www.mentalfloss.com

All vaccines contain a version of the original pathogen to stimulate an immune response.

 

[Mach]

Why is it bad to add a 9th or a 10th vaccine to the list? Covid is killing and hospitalizing people everyday.

It's not. They have been whipped up into a frenzy by social media and right wing media that is making this all about "big bad government" trying to control you.

 

[tshade]

The objection seems to involve around tribalism rather than sound reasoning. Mark me down as a "yes" for vaccine mandates and vaccine "passports".

Here me out people:

States require children to get vaccinated for at least 8 different vaccines to attend a school.

Your family dog/cat has to get their rabies shots every 3 years or so.

Hospital and nursing home employees have to get 8 different vaccines in order to work.

Everybody was required to get the Small Pox and Polio vaccine or have to pay fines.

Why is it bad to add a 9th or a 10th vaccine to the list? Covid is killing and hospitalizing people everyday.

LOL--------you are making a giant mistake. You assume that Trumpers make decisions based on reason/logic

 

[AJG]

This vaccine is not actually a vaccine. it's more like an inoculation. It does not endow immunity like that given by the polio vaccine. Just enhanced resistance.

I see this claim being made a lot on this board, but I'm curious where it comes from? There is in fact plenty of evidence that the vaccines do prevent infection:

Infection rates have shown that those who are fully vaccinated are almost four times less likely to get infected with COVID-19.

Fully vaccinated people 4 times less likely to contract COVID-19, 14 times less likely to be hospitalized, experts say

LOS ANGELES (KTLA) — As COVID-19 continues to surge and the delta variant spreads in Los Angeles County, health officials are seeing more breakthrough cases in those who are fully vaccinated,…

www.wfla.com

People who have received both doses of a Covid-19 vaccine are half as likely to be infected with the delta coronavirus variant than those who have not been vaccinated, according to a new study led by researchers at Imperial College London, though the scientists warned a new vaccine targeting the infectious delta variant may be needed to combat concerns over vaccine efficacy.

Fully Vaccinated Half As Likely To Catch Delta Covid Variant And Less Likely To Infect Others, Study Finds

There is a one in 13 chance unvaccinated people will get infected with Covid-19 if exposed to someone with the virus, the researchers found.

www.forbes.com

 

[armycowboy]

The objection seems to involve around tribalism rather than sound reasoning. Mark me down as a "yes" for vaccine mandates and vaccine "passports".

Here me out people:

States require children to get vaccinated for at least 8 different vaccines to attend a school.

Your family dog/cat has to get their rabies shots every 3 years or so.

Hospital and nursing home employees have to get 8 different vaccines in order to work.

Everybody was required to get the Small Pox and Polio vaccine or have to pay fines.

Why is it bad to add a 9th or a 10th vaccine to the list? Covid is killing and hospitalizing people everyday.

As others have said, it's all about politics now. Over the course of my 20+ years in the Army, I can't count how many vaccines I had to take. I really don't know what the big deal is.

 

[CaughtInThe]

And in most states you can opt out of the vaccines for medical, religious and philosophical reasons. But most people (myself included) will take them as they have a long history of known benefits and effects.

By comparison, this shot doesn't prevent you from getting Covid anymore than the Flu shot prevents you from getting the Flu. Also, there is little known about mid to long term effects. But sure, add me to your list of extremists.

do you get to go to school in Texas with polio? why in the hell is Texas being like a dictator??


and, yeah, the COVID vaccines only prevent death (in almost all cases). it's a real bummer.

 

[Noodlegawd]

The objection seems to involve around tribalism rather than sound reasoning. Mark me down as a "yes" for vaccine mandates and vaccine "passports".

Here me out people:

States require children to get vaccinated for at least 8 different vaccines to attend a school.

Your family dog/cat has to get their rabies shots every 3 years or so.

Hospital and nursing home employees have to get 8 different vaccines in order to work.

Everybody was required to get the Small Pox and Polio vaccine or have to pay fines.

Why is it bad to add a 9th or a 10th vaccine to the list? Covid is killing and hospitalizing people everyday.

Only two reasons have any sense of validity:

1. The speed at which the vaccines were tested and approved.
2. Lack of trust in politicians and public health officials, who have been caught on multiple occasions flaunting their own safety rules and on at least one occasion lying to us, or at least saying things that were later shown to be inaccurate, "for our own good."

Granted, neither of these things is enough, in my opinion, to rationally choose not to get vaccinated, but other people are more susceptible to misinformation that can push them over the edge.