Why Fatah and Hamas have lost the right to speak for the Palestinians

Evilroddy said:

The Supreme Powers are the IDF and the IAF along with American political protection when the State of Israel periodically decides to level parts or all of Gaza. There is little point rebuilding buildings which will just be blown up again. From the Palestinian perspective, going underground makes perfect sense. They are trying to make all of Gaza into a Maginot Line which can't be bypassed by the Israeli Military.

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Wow.

Just wow.

Blaming Israel for Hamas not rebuilding homes and infrastructure.

I suppose the Londoners that suffered the blitz didn't rebuild. Hiroshima. Last time I visited it was rebuilt. Ditto just about every city that has suffered destruction.

Sorry. Ain't buying it.

Evilroddy said:

Yes, by making war repeatedly and by militarily occupying the lands which Palestinians live on and by pushing Palestinians off their lands with illegal Israeli settlements and now by attempting to illegally annex large chunks of Palestinians' lands. This is a war of resistance from the Palestinian POV and they're digging in for the long bitter fight in order to cost the State of Israel as much blood and treasure as they can before they are displaced from their lands and their national patrimony.

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Has zero to do with Hamas and their squandering of Palestinian assets.

And "making war repeatedly"?

Might be a rocket or two that prompted retaliation dontcha think?

What would you call thousands of rocket and mortar attacks against innocent civilians?

Hmmm?

What nation would accept such a thing without retaliation?

Evilroddy said:

They are employing Palestinians in building military infrastructure just as the Soviets did in Lennigrad during the Great Patriotic War against their ruthless foe.

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While ignoring what is really needed. Civilian infrastructure. Hell. Hamas could build bomb shelters for the Palestinians and I would be OK with it. But they don't.

BTW - You are in rare form with your hyperbole.

Evilroddy said:

In war with the State of Israel, killing Jews, Christians and even the occasional Israeli Arab Muslim is somewhat unavoidable. That's why war is a losing strategy for everyone, Jew or Palestinian Arab.

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It is doubly a losing strategy when war will NOT result in a win.

Evilroddy said:

It takes two combatants to tango and as yet the Palestinians will not capitulate so the State of Israel continues to kill dispropotionately. Thus the killing on both sides will continue until one power rethinks its policies or the other power is all but exterminated. Surely there is a better way and thus the world should use maximum non-military pressure on both sides to stop the fighting and to come to the negotiating table without any preconditions in order to find a solution which both sides dislike but can live with. But that won't happen because the present Government of Israel wants all the lands between the Jordan River and the Meditteranean Sea as part of Eretz Israel and it wants those lands without the Palestinians who are living on those lands. Even if we can't name what's going on by forum rules everybody understands what's going on in the region.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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Ah, the "disproportionate" shibboleth. AKA 'Not enough dead Jews" defense.

One reason the deaths are disproportionate is that Israel cares enough for their people to construct bomb/rocket shelters in areas within rocket range of Gaza. Something Hamas could do with the concrete from one of their tunnels.

Another reason the deaths are disproportionate is that Israel cares enough to invest heavily in anti rocket technology. Another reason the deaths are disproportionate is that Israel does not force their own to remain in targeted buildings. Another reason the deaths are disproportionate is that Israel is not interesting in making martyrs of their own people. Another reason the deaths are disproportionate is that Hamas continues to bring a knife to a gunfight.

Face it. Hamas is more interested in making martyrs than making improvements.

oneworld2 said:

I don't see anyone here advocating an arms embargo on the state terrorist on the Israeli side.

You seem to think that a virtually defenceless people should be slaughtered and abused , year in year out , by the state terrorists of a vastly superior hitech military machine that is replenished and updated every year so as to be able to inflict more and more death and destruction on that defencless and trapped population around half of which are kids.

So don't have the temerity to try to lecture me on who should and who shouldn't be armed as though you have some kind of moral argument backing you up because you haven't.

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The “I know you are but what am I” defence to advocating for a terrorist organization?

Now do al-quaeda given your views of US “state terrorism”?

Monstrous.


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TypicalRussian said:

You just admitted the state was Britain, LOL

Well Egypt was In Israel before the Arabs, do Egyptians now have the right to land they had 4000 years ago?NO, same with the Jews, they left that area and the arabs moved in, when the Jews came back they set up zionist systems of ethnic cleansing

Israeli settlements?-All i have to say, there is certainly ethnic cleansing of Arabs

The American Media is not trustworthy either, because RT disagrees with you, doesnt mean it is not credible

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Reading comprehension. The State was the mandate. Which was “administered” by Britain. So it wasn’t theirs with free title. And in any event, since you are drifting, Britain clearly wasn’t Arab, so your propaganda map is still wrong even if the point you are arguing is right.

Hint: that means your argument has lost.

Re Israeli communities, there have been zero Palestinians systematically forced out of the territories while at the same time the population has expanded significantly. That isn’t “certainly ethnic cleansing” - you must take us for Russians to be willing to believe your nonsense assertion over our lying eyes.

RT isn’t credible because it is a Russian propaganda outlet. This isn’t hard.




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TypicalRussian said:

Makes sense

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Nice little circle ... game you guys have going on.

Sorry for the butthurt. I’m sure you are used to playing in your little bubbles where you don’t get called out for your nonsense.


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CJ 2.0 said:

Nice little circle ... game you guys have going on.

Sorry for the butthurt. I’m sure you are used to playing in your little bubbles where you don’t get called out for your nonsense.


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Oh please, Israel is not good

CJ 2.0 said:

Reading comprehension. The State was the mandate. Which was “administered” by Britain. So it wasn’t theirs with free title. And in any event, since you are drifting, Britain clearly wasn’t Arab, so your propaganda map is still wrong even if the point you are arguing is right.

Hint: that means your argument has lost.

Re Israeli communities, there have been zero Palestinians systematically forced out of the territories while at the same time the population has expanded significantly. That isn’t “certainly ethnic cleansing” - you must take us for Russians to be willing to believe your nonsense assertion over our lying eyes.

RT isn’t credible because it is a Russian propaganda outlet. This isn’t hard.




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Britain mandated it and created the state, that is a fact

Israeli settlements, they are completely illegal but Jews kick out Palestinians and settle there, then they blockade Gaza and people starve to death, but "why are they supporting terrorism???" Maybe because you bomb them and take away their rights!!

Anything can be labeled as propoganda

Dont like a source-ITS propoganda!!

Fledermaus said:

Another reason the deaths are disproportionate is that Israel cares enough to invest heavily in anti rocket technology. Another reason the deaths are disproportionate is that Israel does not force their own to remain in targeted buildings. Another reason the deaths are disproportionate is that Israel is not interesting in making martyrs of their own people. Another reason the deaths are disproportionate is that Hamas continues to bring a knife to a gunfight.

Face it. Hamas is more interested in making martyrs than making improvements.

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Yup. That pretty much sums it up.

For those who have never seen the HAMAS charter, here is their bottom line:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)".

This is a war driven by religious hatred on a scale that Westerners simply can't fathom.

TypicalRussian said:

Oh please, Israel is not good

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Wow. Compelling. Also not even remotely related to that little ... discussion you guys were having.

Sort of fun to watch the incessant drift as you guys lose on one concrete point after another.


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TypicalRussian said:

Britain mandated it and created the state, that is a fact

Israeli settlements, they are completely illegal but Jews kick out Palestinians and settle there, then they blockade Gaza and people starve to death, but "why are they supporting terrorism???" Maybe because you bomb them and take away their rights!!

Anything can be labeled as propoganda

Dont like a source-ITS propoganda!!

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Lol. No Britain did not mandate it. The league of nations created the mandate and appointed Britain as mandatory.

I know fact-based efforts are not typically a strong suit but please do try to keep it together.

You posted propaganda about lands the Palestinians controlled and then lost. As you move further and further away from that propaganda claim, it is important o watch the drift as you clutch at straws to show you are “right” about something. Anything at all will do. But yet, still such trouble...

Most Jewish communities in the wb were on land where no one was living. Therefore no one was “kicked out” because by definition if no one is living there, no one would have been kicked out.

I’m gonna hazard a guess you’ve never actually been there and so have no idea what you are actually talking about.

Meanwhile, they supported terrorism since long before the occupation, and in fact Arab efforts to destroy Israel contributed directly to that occupation in the first place.

As for propaganda, RT is like the textbook definition of propaganda. Like pravda or various mouthpieces of the Chinese government. This isn’t really hard, you know. Only a certain kind of people really have any trouble seeing this. Incidentally, what do you think about your president for life? I know you mist see that as off topic, but it really isn’t...

CJ 2.0 said:

Lol. No Britain did not mandate it. The league of nations created the mandate and appointed Britain as mandatory.

I know fact-based efforts are not typically a strong suit but please do try to keep it together.

You posted propaganda about lands the Palestinians controlled and then lost. As you move further and further away from that propaganda claim, it is important o watch the drift as you clutch at straws to show you are “right” about something. Anything at all will do. But yet, still such trouble...

Most Jewish communities in the wb were on land where no one was living. Therefore no one was “kicked out” because by definition if no one is living there, no one would have been kicked out.

I’m gonna hazard a guess you’ve never actually been there and so have no idea what you are actually talking about.

Meanwhile, they supported terrorism since long before the occupation, and in fact Arab efforts to destroy Israel contributed directly to that occupation in the first place.

As for propaganda, RT is like the textbook definition of propaganda. Like pravda or various mouthpieces of the Chinese government. This isn’t really hard, you know. Only a certain kind of people really have any trouble seeing this. Incidentally, what do you think about your president for life? I know you mist see that as off topic, but it really isn’t...

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No britain didnt mandate it but was the mandatory-really thats conflicting

During the 1948 Palestine war, around 720,000 Palestinian Arabs out of the 900,000 who lived in the territories that became Israel fled or were expelled from their homes. The causes of this exodus are controversial and debated by historians. In his own words, Ilan Pappé "want to make the case for the paradigm of ethnic cleansing and use it to replace the paradigm of war as the basis for the scholarly research of, and public debate about, 1948."[1]

The thesis of the book is that the forced move of Palestinians to the Arab world was an objective of the Zionist movement and a must for the desired character of the Jewish state. According to Pappé, the 1948 Palestinian exodus resulted from a planned ethnic cleansing of Palestine that was implemented by the Zionist movement leaders, mainly David Ben-Gurion and the other ten members of his "consultancy group" as referred to by Pappé. The book argues that the ethnic cleansing was put into effect through systematic expulsions of about 500 Arab villages, as well as terrorist attacks executed mainly by members of the Irgun and Haganah troops against the civilian population. Ilan Pappé also refers to Plan Dalet and to the village files as a proof of the planned expulsions.[2]

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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Wikipedia

This is common knowledge, that Israel would not exist without ethnic cleansing, they immigrated millions of Jews over to kick out the Muslims living there and then with help of the US destroy them

Pornography as Israel's Weapon of Choice | The Muslim Skeptic

They are pumping inter-racial porn into the Palestinians on their TV sets, do you know how fuc*ed up that it?

Give me proof that RT is propaganda, every news source could be propoganda

CJ 2.0 said:

Wow. Compelling. Also not even remotely related to that little ... discussion you guys were having.

Sort of fun to watch the incessant drift as you guys lose on one concrete point after another.


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Im sure it was fun to watch intelligent discussions, something you could never do, you love reading our posts SO MUCH, your in love with them

Now, THATS cute:blowup::blowup::blowup::blowup:

CJ 2.0 said:

The “I know you are but what am I” defence to advocating for a terrorist organization?

Now do al-quaeda given your views of US “state terrorism”?

Monstrous.


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The terrorists of Hamas engage in retail terrorism due to their limitations, the state of Israel engages in wholesale state terrorism due to its capacity.

Only size and capability are different but both are terrorists imo

Didn;t understand the second sentance so didn't respond

Monstrous indeed !!

oneworld2 said:

The terrorists of Hamas engage in retail terrorism due to their limitations, the state of Israel engages in wholesale state terrorism due to its capacity.

Only size and capability are different but both are terrorists imo

Didn;t understand the second sentance so didn't respond

Monstrous indeed !!

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Here's a simple question for you. If Palestinians stopped shooting at Israel, would the shooting stop?

stevecanuck said:

Here's a simple question for you. If Palestinians stopped shooting at Israel, would the shooting stop?

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The shooting might stop but the ongoing repression and subjugation of the Palestinians themselves wouldn't.

Here's one for you Steve.

Do you think that a people living under a foreign military occupation or siege that denies them their HRs on a daily basis have the right to resist that domination up to and including armed conflict to achieve national liberation ?

stevecanuck said:

This is a war driven by religious hatred on a scale that Westerners simply can't fathom.

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Nope, it is driven by a national liberaion struggle. The Arabs didn't hate the Jews because they were Jewish anynore than the native Indians of Latin America hated the Spanish because they were Catholics.

You seem like a reasonably astute person, I don't see why you cannot work that out for yourself

oneworld2 said:

The shooting might stop but the ongoing repression and subjugation of the Palestinians themselves wouldn't.

Here's one for you Steve.

Do you think that a people living under a foreign military occupation or siege that denies them their HRs on a daily basis have the right to resist that domination up to and including armed conflict to achieve national liberation ?

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If the terrorism stopped, IOW if HAMAS ripped up their charter, then the process of living in peace could begin. If the Palestinians ever recognized Israel, you might be amazed at how quickly their lives would improve, and all with the full support and aid of Israel.

oneworld2 said:

Nope, it is driven by a national liberaion struggle. The Arabs didn't hate the Jews because they were Jewish anynore than the native Indians of Latin America hated the Spanish because they were Catholics.

You seem like a reasonably astute person, I don't see why you cannot work that out for yourself

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These are direct quotes from the charter of HAMAS. The hatred of Jews because they are Jews will jump off the page and smite thine argument. If the word 'Israelis' were used instead of 'Jews', you could continue to stand by your claim, but as you can plainly see, that is not the case.

-Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious.
- "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
- "But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
- The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.
- In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children.
- We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women."
- Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."
- the fight with the warmongering Jews.


The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

stevecanuck said:

If the terrorism stopped, IOW if HAMAS ripped up their charter, then the process of living in peace could begin. If the Palestinians ever recognized Israel, you might be amazed at how quickly their lives would improve, and all with the full support and aid of Israel.

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I answered your question but you evidently swerved the one put to you. Why ?

There was terrorism before Hamas and Hamas are not the only group that have not given away their right , and it is a right , to engage in armed conflict so as to achieve national liberation.

You obviously single out Hamas because they are the modern day cover all scapegoat as to why the conflict continues/doen't appear to be resolvable for people who don't understand the situation and are fed that line by people/outlets with an agenda to confuse the issie imo

Would you insist that the Likud should likewise be forced/volunteer to cease their steadfast rejection of the creation of a Palestinian state in the OPTs ?

stevecanuck said:

These are direct quotes from the charter of HAMAS. The hatred of Jews because they are Jews will jump off the page and smite thine argument. If the word 'Israelis' were used instead of 'Jews', you could continue to stand by your claim, but as you can plainly see, that is not the case.

-Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious.
- "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
- "But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
- The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.
- In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children.
- We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women."
- Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."
- the fight with the warmongering Jews.


The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

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" Smite thine argument " ?? Have I just dropped through a portal into the year 400 BC ?

Did you skip over this telling line from it ?

" In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine "

Why would they say Israelis when around 20% of Israelis are not Jews at all ?

But let's stick with your thesis and say that , and I believe this pans out globally unfortunately , they do NOW hate the Jews because of the crimes committed against them , not by world Jewry , but by the Jewish nation in it's bid to usurp their land and deny them their HRs/national right to self determination. Is that surprising ?

Do you think the Latin American Indian peoples hated the Spanish because they were Catholics or because the Spanish conquered and abused them ? Have a stab at it.

oneworld2 said:

" Smite thine argument " ?? Have I just dropped through a portal into the year 400 BC ?

Did you skip over this telling line from it ?

" In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine "

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Nope. It's there.

Why would they say Israelis when around 20% of Israelis are not Jews at all ?

But let's stick with your thesis and say that , and I believe this pans out globally unfortunately , they do NOW hate the Jews because of the crimes committed against them , not by world Jewry , but by the Jewish nation in it's bid to usurp their land and deny them their HRs/national right to self determination. Is that surprising ?

Do you think the Latin American Indian peoples hated the Spanish because they were Catholics or because the Spanish conquered and abused them ? Have a stab at it.

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If you can read those quotes from the charter and try to claim that they don't hate the Jews for being Jews, then your bias is too strong to overcome. Step back. Read those again.

oneworld2 said:

" Smite thine argument " ?? Have I just dropped through a portal into the year 400 BC ?

Did you skip over this telling line from it ?

" In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine "

Why would they say Israelis when around 20% of Israelis are not Jews at all ?

But let's stick with your thesis and say that , and I believe this pans out globally unfortunately , they do NOW hate the Jews because of the crimes committed against them , not by world Jewry , but by the Jewish nation in it's bid to usurp their land and deny them their HRs/national right to self determination. Is that surprising ?

Do you think the Latin American Indian peoples hated the Spanish because they were Catholics or because the Spanish conquered and abused them ? Have a stab at it.

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Btw, that charter copies the tone of the Qur'an. Read the quotes from the Qur'an in there and you'll see they do not stand out.

stevecanuck said:

Nope. It's there.



If you can read those quotes from the charter and try to claim that they don't hate the Jews for being Jews, then your bias is too strong to overcome. Step back. Read those again.

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You obviously have no intention of answering the questions put to you by others because you KNOW that to answer them honestly would scupper your arguments.

stevecanuck said:

Btw, that charter copies the tone of the Qur'an. Read the quotes from the Qur'an in there and you'll see they do not stand out.

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The conflict between Zionists and Palestinians predates Hamas by nearly a century. Thus your insistance that all the problems stem from them and peace is unobtainable because of them is ridiculous. You should be honest and come clean about how your post 9/11 view of Muslims is the motor behind your views and explanations but my guess is you won't.

oneworld2 said:

The conflict between Zionists and Palestinians predates Hamas by nearly a century. Thus your insistance that all the problems stem from them and peace is unobtainable because of them is ridiculous. You should be honest and come clean about how your post 9/11 view of Muslims is the motor behind your views and explanations but my guess is you won't.

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Nope. I'm not saying all the problems stem from Hamas. I'm using their charter to demonstrate that pure, visceral hatred of Jews is the problem.

stevecanuck said:

Nope. I'm not saying all the problems stem from Hamas. I'm using their charter to demonstrate that pure, visceral hatred of Jews is the problem.

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your post from earlier

stevecanuck said:

If the terrorism stopped, IOW if HAMAS ripped up their charter, then the process of living in peace could begin.

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That statement excludes so many other problems and serves to exonerate the acts/policies of so many different factions/actors it can only be seen as a statement coming from someone with an anti Muslim agenda. I could go through this bit by bit and thoroughly rubbish your claims but it would be in vain because it is your own extremism that is the problem here imo

That charter came after nearly a century of Zionist Arab antagonisms that saw the Palestinians living as unpeople thoughout the region. Stateless , rights less, abused on a mass scale ( ongoing ) and pawns in so many outside and internal agendas and all because of the advent of Zionism. Is it surprising that it shows a distinct hatred of Jews ? Is that unreasonable ?

I'm giving you a chance of a reasonable discussion here and if you carry on refusing to answer the questions that get thrown up there's no real point in continuing. If you want in then answer them, if you want out because of your fixed anti Muslim stance then say so and stop wasting other peoples time. Sound fair ?