Why Fatah and Hamas have lost the right to speak for the Palestinians

[Fledermaus]

Most Palestinians, including myself, have been living for many years under the illusion that the leaders of the Fatah and Hamas movements can agree on a common agenda for political and resistance work to achieve the legitimate goals of the Palestinian people of defeating the Israeli occupation and establishing a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.
Why Fatah and Hamas have lost the right to speak for the Palestinians || AW

Looks like the Palestinians are tiring of their own entities.

 

[ecofarm]

Development proceeds despite terrorist regimes (Hamas) and eventually, with outside assistance, overcomes the terrorist regime. Hamas will eventually fall. It's a matter of time.

 

[Manc Skipper]

If they don't speak for them who does? Kushner? It's only to a deaf ear anyway.

 

[oneworld2]

Israel knows how to manipulate those decision makers and enlist their cooperation by sometimes releasing the funds allocated to the Palestinian Authority that it had seized, or by allowing truckloads of cement, iron and goods through the Gaza crossing.

That the Palestinian factions have let down their people in a huge way is obvious to any that have been paying attention over the past three decades but the above quote is a crucial piece of that jigsaw.

The tactic of divide and conquer/control has been part of the Palestine question since at least the Balfour Declaration. To think it is not still being played out there with Israel , the US , the Arab states, the EU etc etc all playing their part in manipulating the situation between the Palestinian factions is fooling themselves imo.

Recall Israel gave tacit support to Hamas when it first appeared so as to undermine the then PLO which had determined to negotiate a two state solution based on the 67 borders .

After the first Gulf War with the PLO decision to support Saddam spectacularly backfiring they decided to become collaborators to the occupation so as to be recognized by the outsiders as the rightful leaders of the Palestinian people.

Their outright self serving corruption in the post Oslo years led to arise in support for Hamas within the Palestinians themselves culminating in the 2006 election victory in the Palestinian elections.

The rejection of that result and the failed coup has led to the stalemate between the two main factions Hamas and Fatah and the rightful despair for the rank and file Palestinians.

A disunited and infighting Palestinian national representative actually suits Israel and , if you follow the events when a reconciliation effort is made, is the preferred situation. They can then claim , with legitimacy , that they don't have a negotiating partner with the tongue in cheek audacity needed to keep a straight face that it is the situation they want and have worked to achieve in the first place.

The quote at the top basically endorses the above in it's most basic form and is imo an accurate take on the situation

 

[Fledermaus]

If they don't speak for them who does? Kushner? It's only to a deaf ear anyway.

They need something other than Hamas who has stolen their goods and pilfered their monies.

 

[Apocalypse]

Development proceeds despite terrorist regimes (Hamas) and eventually, with outside assistance, overcomes the terrorist regime. Hamas will eventually fall. It's a matter of time.

It will either fall or renounce violence. The question then will be how to prevent the next barbaric terror group from showing up and taking control.

 

[ecofarm]

It will either fall or renounce violence. The question then will be how to prevent the next barbaric terror group from showing up and taking control.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, thus to renounce violence is to fall.

 

[oneworld2]

The question then will be how to prevent the next barbaric terror group from showing up and taking control.

Easy, stop violating , injuring and killing Palestinians whilst denying them their ,virtually , every human right. Stop occupying , stop blockading, stop discriminating, detaining , torturing, in short, only people who are treated appallingly and have no real recourse to do anything about it end up resorting to terrorism.

It's not hard to understand if you see the Palestinians as people instead of vermin.

 

[oneworld2]

Hamas is a terrorist organization, thus to renounce violence is to fall.

The Fatah faction signed agreements renouncing violence and where did that get them ? A job as subcontractors to the Israeli occupation and seen as sell out/self serving scum by many Palestinians.

Do you ever think the state terrorist of Israel should be forced to renounce violence or is it just some Palestinians ?

 

[oneworld2]

They need something other than Hamas who has stolen their goods and pilfered their monies.

Hamas only grew and amassed support because the Fatah people did that themselves previously. Ongoing.

 

[Fledermaus]

The Fatah faction signed agreements renouncing violence and where did that get them ? A job as subcontractors to the Israeli occupation and seen as sell out/self serving scum by many Palestinians.

Do you ever think the state terrorist of Israel should be forced to renounce violence or is it just some Palestinians ?

So, in your eyes renouncing violence is a bad thing.

 

[ecofarm]

The Fatah faction signed agreements renouncing violence and where did that get them ?

Hamas slaughtered Fatah in the streets and threw them from buildings.

 

[Fledermaus]

Hamas only grew and amassed support because the Fatah people did that themselves previously. Ongoing.

And Hamas still robs from the poor in order to attack innocent civilians.

 

[oneworld2]

So, in your eyes renouncing violence is a bad thing.

For the side that renounces it and allows the other side to carry on engaging in it? Absolutely !!

Anyway who are you to talk when you don't even support ceasefires that DO at least force both sides to commit to a renouncing of violence even if only temporarily ?

 

[oneworld2]

Hamas slaughtered Fatah in the streets and threw them from buildings.

:roll:

What did that have to do with with the question I set ?

Also ,at least try to understand the reality of the time period you are talking about. The reality was that Fatah people refused to vacate the positions after Hamas had won the election AND conspired with Israel , the US and UK etc etc in planning to initiate a coup to throw out Hamas. Hamas pre empeted it and hence the Battle of Gaza.

 

[oneworld2]

And Hamas still robs from the poor in order to attack innocent civilians.

So do the PA still rob the poor and sell out Palestinian rights to be collaborators with Israel.

You seem only concerned with the poor ( I don't even buy this ) when they are robbed by Hamas. When the PA or Israel do it the poor suddenly disappear. :roll:

 

[ecofarm]

:roll:

What did that have to do with with the question I set ?

When Fatah defies Hamas, they are killed by Hamas. Apparently, you're not aware of the brutal violence Hamas has employed against Fatah.

 

[Apocalypse]

Easy, stop violating , injuring and killing Palestinians whilst denying them their ,virtually , every human right. Stop occupying , stop blockading, stop discriminating, detaining , torturing, in short, only people who are treated appallingly and have no real recourse to do anything about it end up resorting to terrorism.

It's not hard to understand if you see the Palestinians as people instead of vermin.

None of that happens. The bad guys are bad guys not because they're treated badly, but because that's how they came to be through generations of indoctrinations.

There are two ways to stop this; either they themsleves cease being bad guys through modernization and/or understanding the wrong of their ways and how it doesn't bring any solution, or we grant every terrorist and terror supporter out there a bullet to the head. The latter being the more moral approach yet more impractical one.

 

[Evilroddy]

Most Palestinians, including myself, have been living for many years under the illusion that the leaders of the Fatah and Hamas movements can agree on a common agenda for political and resistance work to achieve the legitimate goals of the Palestinian people of defeating the Israeli occupation and establishing a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.
Why Fatah and Hamas have lost the right to speak for the Palestinians || AW

Looks like the Palestinians are tiring of their own entities.

Fledermaus:

First four words of your post - are you saying you are a Palestinian?

Who will speak for the Palestinian people if not Fatah and Hamas? Whether you like it or not, those two political factions are the only games in town. If the State of Israel would allow foreign troops under UN Mandate into the Palestinian Occupied Territories then maybe an alternative faction could rise and be elected into power democratically there, but the State of Israel won't do this and so only Fatah and Hamas have a shred of legitimacy with which to claim leadership, as they have at least won elections. So who do you think should speak for the Palestinian Nation? Nobody? The State of Israel? The United Nations? Hezbollah? Who should speak for the Palestinian people in the Palestinian Occupied Territories and in the Palestinian Diaspora?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[oneworld2]

When Fatah defies Hamas, they are killed by Hamas. Apparently, you're not aware of the brutal violence Hamas has employed against Fatah.

How can you infer that I am " not aware " of the very stuff in my post you chose to edit out of the quote ?

Where you even aware yourself that a coup was planned by Fatah to oust Hamas ?

 

[Evilroddy]

When Fatah defies Hamas, they are killed by Hamas. Apparently, you're not aware of the brutal violence Hamas has employed against Fatah.

ecofarm:

The killing goes both ways:

http://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Palestinian-Human-Rights_online.pdf

Arbitrary Arrest and Torture Under the Palestinian Authority and Hamas | HRW

Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank are as guilty of extrajudicial killings, torture and arbitrary detentions as Hamas is in Gaza.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[oneworld2]

None of that happens.

All of that happens and is well documented even here in this subforum.That you flat out choose to deny it is truly bizarre.

The bad guys are bad guys not because they're treated badly, but because that's how they came to be through generations of indoctrinations.

The " bad guys " are always on the opposite side in virtually everyones view because we are all indoctrinated to believe that right is on our side. What you are showing is how your own indoctrination has shaped your views , so much so you don't even see a blockade, or an occupation , or even a dead Palestinian.

The irony is that your comments are a damning indictment of how indocrination plays out.

There are two ways to stop this; either they themsleves cease being bad guys through modernization and/or understanding the wrong of their ways and how it doesn't bring any solution, or we grant every terrorist and terror supporter out there a bullet to the head. The latter being the more moral approach yet more impractical one.

So, you think that the only two ways to go are they accept their fate as being unpeople with Israeli overlords calling the shots or they all receive a bullet. Then you wax lyrical about morals ? lol

TBH your commentary in the above is just utter nonsense and will be rejected by thinking people everywhere for it's denial of reality and it's immorality. Not what you were aiming for I think .

 

[Fledermaus]

For the side that renounces it and allows the other side to carry on engaging in it? Absolutely !!

Anyway who are you to talk when you don't even support ceasefires that DO at least force both sides to commit to a renouncing of violence even if only temporarily ?

Gandhi disagrees.....

 

[Fledermaus]

Fledermaus:

First four words of your post - are you saying you are a Palestinian?

Who will speak for the Palestinian people if not Fatah and Hamas? Whether you like it or not, those two political factions are the only games in town. If the State of Israel would allow foreign troops under UN Mandate into the Palestinian Occupied Territories then maybe an alternative faction could rise and be elected into power democratically there, but the State of Israel won't do this and so only Fatah and Hamas have a shred of legitimacy with which to claim leadership, as they have at least won elections. So who do you think should speak for the Palestinian Nation? Nobody? The State of Israel? The United Nations? Hezbollah? Who should speak for the Palestinian people in the Palestinian Occupied Territories and in the Palestinian Diaspora?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

I quoted the article directly.

My commentary follows the link.

 

[oneworld2]

Gandhi disagrees.....

So what? You never asked Gandhi, you asked me . :roll:

Why should the Palestinians be the only ones forced into renouncing violence so as to end the conflict ?