aps said:I would be surprised if anyone who considers themselves to be pro-choice as someone who supports abortion. We support a woman's right to choose to do what she wants with her own body should she get pregnant, as that is none of our business. That doesn't make us abortion supporters.
I know, it makes you pro-lifers feel morally superior to those who are not pro-life. Yawn.
Felicity said:Well...to answer the question that is the title of your thread....Who benefits from abortions? The abortionists. So, if you "support abortion" you are "pro-abortionists"--you are supporting the only person who benefits from the procedure.
Felicity said:Well...to answer the question that is the title of your thread....Who benefits from abortions? The abortionists. So, if you "support abortion" you are "pro-abortionists"--you are supporting the only person who benefits from the procedure.
Abortionists are people who perform abortions....aps said:Huh? This makes no sense.
tecoyah said:I see....so the Women, who decide on this course are doing so to make Abortionists Richer?
That my dear....is a bit far fetched even for you.
Felicity said:Anyway...that is not what I said. I said people who support abortion are benefiting abortionists--thus, pro-abortionists. People who seek abortions do so for various reasons...usually it is pro-self with little regard for anyone else. Still, who is the only person that really benefits? The abortionist. Hence--pro-abortionist.
Is it a benefit to that woman that she is in a situation where (after much internal debate) she feels she must abort her baby? Is it a situation where she is better off having had this experience? I don't think so. I'm certain most women would rather not have this experience.tecoyah said:Who benefits....uh...maybe the woman that decides (I would hope after much internal debate) that she cannot have this child.
The abortion is not a "benefit" to her--it is a way to eliminate a perceived "problem" that usually is the result of behavior choices she brought upon herself. Maybe if she thought of the "implications of the actions" she was about to take--she wouldn't BE in a situation where abortion would become something she may consider.There is a slight chance...note the sarcasm....that people do not go into surgery lightly, and perhaps, think on the implications of the actions they take.
Who else suffers no loss and only gain from the exchange?To state that the Doctor performing the proceedure is the sole beneficiary of this is so rediculous
Felicity said:Abortionists are people who perform abortions....
Just as a cardiologist deals with the cardiac muscle--abortionist deal with abortions. I'm not denying they are medical doctors.aps said:Felicity, I stand corrected. I have never heard that term before. I thought that "doctors" were the ones performing them.
However, not all pro-choicers are pro-abortion.
Felicity said:Is it a benefit to that woman that she is in a situation where (after much internal debate) she feels she must abort her baby? Is it a situation where she is better off having had this experience? I don't think so. I'm certain most women would rather not have this experience.
And my statement did not claim she was better off, but instead addressed the point of contention, ie....who benefits
The abortion is not a "benefit" to her--it is a way to eliminate a perceived "problem" that usually is the result of behavior choices she brought upon herself. Maybe if she thought of the "implications of the actions" she was about to take--she wouldn't BE in a situation where abortion would become something she may consider.
ben·e·fit Audio pronunciation of "benefit" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bn-ft)
n.
1.
1. Something that promotes or enhances well-being; an advantage: The field trip was of great benefit to the students.
2. Help; aid.
2. A payment made or an entitlement available in accordance with a wage agreement, an insurance policy, or a public assistance program.
3. A public entertainment, performance, or social event held to raise funds for a person or cause.
4. Archaic. A kindly deed.
Perhaps we need to clarify what benefit means
Who else suffers no loss and only gain from the exchange?
unless you wish to change the meaning of the term benefit, this is irrelevant to the debate.
Baloney...it is the RIGHTS of ALL humans I am concerned with. Pro-"choicers" are only concerned with the choice made by adult (or semi-adult) women. They COMPLETELY ignore the rights of the human that is incapable of expressing his or her "choice" due to maturity (or rather, lack thereof).ngdawg said:What I've observed so far here is that, so-called prolifers have a totally anti-rights stance, hence I refuse to call them 'pro-life'.
But others do--in fact, my brother and his wife did and aborted. Abortion affects not only the individuals directly involved--most especially the conceived human at risk--but also aunts and uncles, grandparents, siblings....I don't monetarily support 'abortionists'; when told I should undergo amnio, I refused saying I worked this long to get this far, I'll keep going-no way was I going to abort. And that is the CRUX of this-we support the RIGHTS of women to do as they wish with THEIR lives and bodies.
That's like saying I'm against stealing, but if it's right for someone else....relative morality is indefensible!I would not force a woman to undergo an abortion nor do I think it's the right of anyone to force her to NOT to.
That is so--but the pro-life crowd respects the rights of women AND the rights of the not yet born who cannot speak for themselves.Anti-rights people are no more pro-life than anyone else, since they don't have any respect for the women and their lives.
Oh...so you admit there's another LIFE involved here....and WHOSE "rights" are you judging more relevant?! Your stance is anti-rights because you DENY the rights of the life of the human in the womb. That is a POWER scenario--the mother has the POWER and she wields it in denying rights to the one without a voice. Furthermore--your statement is making HUGE assumptions. 1st that lives WOULD be ruined. 2nd that even ONE life would be ruined. 3rd that the person in power isn't misperceiving the situation. 4th that if the one in power aborts, she will be "free." 5th that there aren't other options. on and on....They'd much rather see two lives ruined than one lived freely.
I have FIVE children. What difference does being a parent make--except that I APPRECIATE the gift of children!? I give LOADS to specifically pro-life charities--what difference does THAT make to the relevance of my position?We've heard 'convict them of murder', 'make them have the baby', etc. And, except for one, NONE is even a parent or has admitted to helping the community of abandoned and fostered children already living.
Lay it on me, babe...whattya wanna know?They also sidestep direct questions as to their logic, information and personal experience.
as I said before....Baloney!It's empty rhetoric, twisted logic and propagandist misinformation.
I am pro-choice, pro-rights and that makes me pro-life.
tecoyah said:My point here is simple....I actually agree that the abortion is a bad thing, and as much as I would like to make it go away....it is not within my domain to tell another person what to do in this situation, and I am far from qualified to decide for another. I would ask a simple series of questions of anyone that feels they ARE worthy of defining what a stranger should be free to do:
What is it that gives you the insight needed to decide whats right for everyone?
How do you feel about unjust laws taking away your freedom?
Do you think there is room for alternative views within a society?
How are YOU personally affected by the issue in question?
are you willing to be subjected to the results of your own judgement?
please think on these...seriously, then decide
Felicity said:'scuse me...my family is about to say the rosary (we'll say a special prayer for you and others who believe as you do)...I'll be right back and address your questions.:2wave:
ngdawg said:What I've observed so far here is that, so-called prolifers have a totally anti-rights stance, hence I refuse to call them 'pro-life'.
I don't monetarily support 'abortionists'; when told I should undergo amnio, I refused saying I worked this long to get this far, I'll keep going-no way was I going to abort. And that is the CRUX of this-we support the RIGHTS of women to do as they wish with THEIR lives and bodies.
I would not force a woman to undergo an abortion nor do I think it's the right of anyone to force her to NOT to.
Anti-rights people are no more pro-life than anyone else, since they don't have any respect for the women and their lives. They'd much rather see two lives ruined than one lived freely. We've heard 'convict them of murder', 'make them have the baby', etc. And, except for one, NONE is even a parent or has admitted to helping the community of abandoned and fostered children already living. They also sidestep direct questions as to their logic, information and personal experience.
It's empty rhetoric, twisted logic and propagandist misinformation.
I am pro-choice, pro-rights and that makes me pro-life.
tecoyah said:In this one statement....you have answered the majority of my questions concerning motive.....I now realize this is a pointless....and dead debate. But thanx anyway.
I don't need insight into "everyone's" individual experience to know that it is wrong to deny fundamental human rights to all human beings despite their level of maturity or functioning.What is it that gives you the insight needed to decide whats right for everyone?
"unjust laws" are just that--unjust--it would be wrong to support unjust laws. That is why I do not support "legal" abortion.How do you feel about unjust laws taking away your freedom?
I do think there is room for difference of opinion on issues that do not violate fundamental human rights.Do you think there is room for alternative views within a society?
I've already given the example of the loss of my niece or nephew--make those PLURAL--I have lost more than one to abortion....but further, when the rights of any human is compromised, it lessens the dignity of all humans.How are YOU personally affected by the issue in question?
Absolutely. I practice what I preach.are you willing to be subjected to the results of your own judgement?
aps said:I would be surprised if anyone who considers themselves to be pro-choice as someone who supports abortion. We support a woman's right to choose to do what she wants with her own body should she get pregnant, as that is none of our business. That doesn't make us abortion supporters.
I know, it makes you pro-lifers feel morally superior to those who are not pro-life. Yawn.
(354-430); and Cyril of Alexandria (c. 444) held that "Abortion, if early, is not homicide." Delayed hominization or ensoulment was an accepted principle. St. Augustine stated:
"The great question about the soul is not hastily decided by unargued and rash judgment; the law does not provide that the act (abortion) pertains to homicide, for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation when it is not formed flesh, and so not yet endowed with sense." (On Exodus, 21.80) (CSEL 28.147).
Felicity said:You're welcome...but if you think I don't have entirely secular reasons for my point of view--you are mistaken.
BTW--who is making an unwarranted judgment? You have made assumptions about my life experience that are entirely mistaken.
Did my follow on explanations somehow confirm your belief that my position is merely a religious tautology?tecoyah said:My intent is not to in any way debase your religious beliefs, I have simply been around the block far too many times with such debates to have any interest in slamming my head against that wall again. I have found that those basing this debate on such a backgrond seldom (if ever) wish to listen , but rather just want a podium.....the stage is yours.
I do remember now though....why I avoided conversation with you....sorry to bother.
Felicity said:Did my follow on explanations somehow confirm your belief that my position is merely a religious tautology?
Or are you just chicken?
tecoyah said:Lets just call me chicken...ok....and be done with it.
Felicity said:That's a shame.
I once was very much as you seem to term it "open-minded." But it appears that your position is only worthy to defend if you think your opponent is weak in his or her resolve. That speaks more of YOUR conviction than anything else. Thanks for your honesty.
...And I did pray for you tonight.:2wave:
tecoyah said:And I am sure you wonder....why so few decide to get into these little debates with you. The little Jab is not needed Felicity....Have a good night
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