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Why do pro-life people call non-pro-lifers "pro-abortionists"?

aps

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I would be surprised if anyone who considers themselves to be pro-choice as someone who supports abortion. We support a woman's right to choose to do what she wants with her own body should she get pregnant, as that is none of our business. That doesn't make us abortion supporters.

I know, it makes you pro-lifers feel morally superior to those who are not pro-life. Yawn.
 

tecoyah

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As a father of three...who has never considered an abortion, and doubt I ever would, I am not one who likes abortion, or condones it. That said, I fully support a womans right to decide what is best for her well being, regardless of MY personal Moral Code. This is not simply because I am Male, and therefor lack a fundamental piece required for complete understanding in this, it is because I believe we as a society should not interfere with personal descisions that have little (if any) effect on society as a whole.
 

Felicity

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aps said:
I would be surprised if anyone who considers themselves to be pro-choice as someone who supports abortion. We support a woman's right to choose to do what she wants with her own body should she get pregnant, as that is none of our business. That doesn't make us abortion supporters.

I know, it makes you pro-lifers feel morally superior to those who are not pro-life. Yawn.

Well...to answer the question that is the title of your thread....Who benefits from abortions? The abortionists. So, if you "support abortion" you are "pro-abortionists"--you are supporting the only person who benefits from the procedure.
 

aps

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Felicity said:
Well...to answer the question that is the title of your thread....Who benefits from abortions? The abortionists. So, if you "support abortion" you are "pro-abortionists"--you are supporting the only person who benefits from the procedure.
Huh? This makes no sense.
 

tecoyah

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Felicity said:
Well...to answer the question that is the title of your thread....Who benefits from abortions? The abortionists. So, if you "support abortion" you are "pro-abortionists"--you are supporting the only person who benefits from the procedure.
I see....so the Women, who decide on this course are doing so to make Abortionists Richer?

That my dear....is a bit far fetched even for you.
 

Felicity

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aps said:
Huh? This makes no sense.
Abortionists are people who perform abortions....
 

Felicity

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tecoyah said:
I see....so the Women, who decide on this course are doing so to make Abortionists Richer?

That my dear....is a bit far fetched even for you.

What do you know about me? The first (and last) time we ever had a conversation, you said you weren't talking to me anymore....

Anyway...that is not what I said. I said people who support abortion are benefiting abortionists--thus, pro-abortionists. People who seek abortions do so for various reasons...usually it is pro-self with little regard for anyone else. Still, who is the only person that really benefits? The abortionist. Hence--pro-abortionist.
 

tecoyah

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Felicity said:
Anyway...that is not what I said. I said people who support abortion are benefiting abortionists--thus, pro-abortionists. People who seek abortions do so for various reasons...usually it is pro-self with little regard for anyone else. Still, who is the only person that really benefits? The abortionist. Hence--pro-abortionist.

Who benefits....uh...maybe the woman that decides (I would hope after much internal debate) that she cannot have this child. There is a slight chance...note the sarcasm....that people do not go into surgery lightly, and perhaps, think on the implications of the actions they take. To state that the Doctor performing the proceedure is the sole beneficiary of this is so rediculous as to explain why I hesitate to discuss such things with you in the first place.
 

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tecoyah said:
Who benefits....uh...maybe the woman that decides (I would hope after much internal debate) that she cannot have this child.
Is it a benefit to that woman that she is in a situation where (after much internal debate) she feels she must abort her baby? Is it a situation where she is better off having had this experience? I don't think so. I'm certain most women would rather not have this experience.

There is a slight chance...note the sarcasm....that people do not go into surgery lightly, and perhaps, think on the implications of the actions they take.
The abortion is not a "benefit" to her--it is a way to eliminate a perceived "problem" that usually is the result of behavior choices she brought upon herself. Maybe if she thought of the "implications of the actions" she was about to take--she wouldn't BE in a situation where abortion would become something she may consider.

To state that the Doctor performing the proceedure is the sole beneficiary of this is so rediculous
Who else suffers no loss and only gain from the exchange?
 

aps

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Felicity said:
Abortionists are people who perform abortions....
Felicity, I stand corrected. I have never heard that term before. I thought that "doctors" were the ones performing them.

However, not all pro-choicers are pro-abortion.
 

ngdawg

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What I've observed so far here is that, so-called prolifers have a totally anti-rights stance, hence I refuse to call them 'pro-life'.
I don't monetarily support 'abortionists'; when told I should undergo amnio, I refused saying I worked this long to get this far, I'll keep going-no way was I going to abort. And that is the CRUX of this-we support the RIGHTS of women to do as they wish with THEIR lives and bodies.
I would not force a woman to undergo an abortion nor do I think it's the right of anyone to force her to NOT to.
Anti-rights people are no more pro-life than anyone else, since they don't have any respect for the women and their lives. They'd much rather see two lives ruined than one lived freely. We've heard 'convict them of murder', 'make them have the baby', etc. And, except for one, NONE is even a parent or has admitted to helping the community of abandoned and fostered children already living. They also sidestep direct questions as to their logic, information and personal experience.
It's empty rhetoric, twisted logic and propagandist misinformation.
I am pro-choice, pro-rights and that makes me pro-life.
 

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aps said:
Felicity, I stand corrected. I have never heard that term before. I thought that "doctors" were the ones performing them.

However, not all pro-choicers are pro-abortion.
Just as a cardiologist deals with the cardiac muscle--abortionist deal with abortions. I'm not denying they are medical doctors.


Even if a pro-choicer doesn't like the "idea of" abortion--he or she, ultimately is supporting the abortionist by giving him/her a livelihood.
 

tecoyah

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Felicity said:
Is it a benefit to that woman that she is in a situation where (after much internal debate) she feels she must abort her baby? Is it a situation where she is better off having had this experience? I don't think so. I'm certain most women would rather not have this experience.

And my statement did not claim she was better off, but instead addressed the point of contention, ie....who benefits


The abortion is not a "benefit" to her--it is a way to eliminate a perceived "problem" that usually is the result of behavior choices she brought upon herself. Maybe if she thought of the "implications of the actions" she was about to take--she wouldn't BE in a situation where abortion would become something she may consider.

ben·e·fit Audio pronunciation of "benefit" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bn-ft)
n.

1.
1. Something that promotes or enhances well-being; an advantage: The field trip was of great benefit to the students.
2. Help; aid.
2. A payment made or an entitlement available in accordance with a wage agreement, an insurance policy, or a public assistance program.
3. A public entertainment, performance, or social event held to raise funds for a person or cause.
4. Archaic. A kindly deed.
Perhaps we need to clarify what benefit means



Who else suffers no loss and only gain from the exchange?
unless you wish to change the meaning of the term benefit, this is irrelevant to the debate.
My point here is simple....I actually agree that the abortion is a bad thing, and as much as I would like to make it go away....it is not within my domain to tell another person what to do in this situation, and I am far from qualified to decide for another. I would ask a simple series of questions of anyone that feels they ARE worthy of defining what a stranger should be free to do:

What is it that gives you the insight needed to decide whats right for everyone?

How do you feel about unjust laws taking away your freedom?

Do you think there is room for alternative views within a society?

How are YOU personally affected by the issue in question?

are you willing to be subjected to the results of your own judgement?


please think on these...seriously, then decide
 

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ngdawg said:
What I've observed so far here is that, so-called prolifers have a totally anti-rights stance, hence I refuse to call them 'pro-life'.
Baloney...it is the RIGHTS of ALL humans I am concerned with. Pro-"choicers" are only concerned with the choice made by adult (or semi-adult) women. They COMPLETELY ignore the rights of the human that is incapable of expressing his or her "choice" due to maturity (or rather, lack thereof).


I don't monetarily support 'abortionists'; when told I should undergo amnio, I refused saying I worked this long to get this far, I'll keep going-no way was I going to abort. And that is the CRUX of this-we support the RIGHTS of women to do as they wish with THEIR lives and bodies.
But others do--in fact, my brother and his wife did and aborted. Abortion affects not only the individuals directly involved--most especially the conceived human at risk--but also aunts and uncles, grandparents, siblings....


I would not force a woman to undergo an abortion nor do I think it's the right of anyone to force her to NOT to.
That's like saying I'm against stealing, but if it's right for someone else....relative morality is indefensible!


Anti-rights people are no more pro-life than anyone else, since they don't have any respect for the women and their lives.
That is so--but the pro-life crowd respects the rights of women AND the rights of the not yet born who cannot speak for themselves.

They'd much rather see two lives ruined than one lived freely.
Oh...so you admit there's another LIFE involved here....and WHOSE "rights" are you judging more relevant?! Your stance is anti-rights because you DENY the rights of the life of the human in the womb. That is a POWER scenario--the mother has the POWER and she wields it in denying rights to the one without a voice. Furthermore--your statement is making HUGE assumptions. 1st that lives WOULD be ruined. 2nd that even ONE life would be ruined. 3rd that the person in power isn't misperceiving the situation. 4th that if the one in power aborts, she will be "free." 5th that there aren't other options. on and on....


We've heard 'convict them of murder', 'make them have the baby', etc. And, except for one, NONE is even a parent or has admitted to helping the community of abandoned and fostered children already living.
I have FIVE children. What difference does being a parent make--except that I APPRECIATE the gift of children!? I give LOADS to specifically pro-life charities--what difference does THAT make to the relevance of my position?

They also sidestep direct questions as to their logic, information and personal experience.
Lay it on me, babe...whattya wanna know?


It's empty rhetoric, twisted logic and propagandist misinformation.
I am pro-choice, pro-rights and that makes me pro-life.
as I said before....Baloney!
 

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tecoyah said:
My point here is simple....I actually agree that the abortion is a bad thing, and as much as I would like to make it go away....it is not within my domain to tell another person what to do in this situation, and I am far from qualified to decide for another. I would ask a simple series of questions of anyone that feels they ARE worthy of defining what a stranger should be free to do:

What is it that gives you the insight needed to decide whats right for everyone?

How do you feel about unjust laws taking away your freedom?

Do you think there is room for alternative views within a society?

How are YOU personally affected by the issue in question?

are you willing to be subjected to the results of your own judgement?


please think on these...seriously, then decide
'scuse me...my family is about to say the rosary (we'll say a special prayer for you and others who believe as you do)...I'll be right back and address your questions.;) :2wave:
 

tecoyah

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Felicity said:
'scuse me...my family is about to say the rosary (we'll say a special prayer for you and others who believe as you do)...I'll be right back and address your questions.;) :2wave:
In this one statement....you have answered the majority of my questions concerning motive.....I now realize this is a pointless....and dead debate. But thanx anyway.
 

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ngdawg said:
What I've observed so far here is that, so-called prolifers have a totally anti-rights stance, hence I refuse to call them 'pro-life'.
I don't monetarily support 'abortionists'; when told I should undergo amnio, I refused saying I worked this long to get this far, I'll keep going-no way was I going to abort. And that is the CRUX of this-we support the RIGHTS of women to do as they wish with THEIR lives and bodies.
I would not force a woman to undergo an abortion nor do I think it's the right of anyone to force her to NOT to.
Anti-rights people are no more pro-life than anyone else, since they don't have any respect for the women and their lives. They'd much rather see two lives ruined than one lived freely. We've heard 'convict them of murder', 'make them have the baby', etc. And, except for one, NONE is even a parent or has admitted to helping the community of abandoned and fostered children already living. They also sidestep direct questions as to their logic, information and personal experience.
It's empty rhetoric, twisted logic and propagandist misinformation.
I am pro-choice, pro-rights and that makes me pro-life.
You say pro-life folks have an anti-rights stance. The only rights you are taking in to account are the rights of the mother. The child has no rights. The child never gets a chance to state a case in court. The child never has the opportunity to grow and succeed and prove the whole abortion option to be the death sentence that it actually is. I love my life. I could have been an abortion, and never had that chance. You could have too. Think about it that way, and realize there is more than one person involved in the decision. Who will speak for the rights of those that have none, according to pro-abortionists?

Everybody deserves the same chance that you and I got only by chance. Anything else is an injustice.
 

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tecoyah said:
In this one statement....you have answered the majority of my questions concerning motive.....I now realize this is a pointless....and dead debate. But thanx anyway.
You're welcome...but if you think I don't have entirely secular reasons for my point of view--you are mistaken.;)
BTW--who is making an unwarranted judgment? You have made assumptions about my life experience that are entirely mistaken. I'd be happy to tell you where you are wrong about my motives if you're interested.

What is it that gives you the insight needed to decide whats right for everyone?
I don't need insight into "everyone's" individual experience to know that it is wrong to deny fundamental human rights to all human beings despite their level of maturity or functioning.

How do you feel about unjust laws taking away your freedom?
"unjust laws" are just that--unjust--it would be wrong to support unjust laws. That is why I do not support "legal" abortion.

Do you think there is room for alternative views within a society?
I do think there is room for difference of opinion on issues that do not violate fundamental human rights.

How are YOU personally affected by the issue in question?
I've already given the example of the loss of my niece or nephew--make those PLURAL--I have lost more than one to abortion....but further, when the rights of any human is compromised, it lessens the dignity of all humans.

are you willing to be subjected to the results of your own judgement?
Absolutely. I practice what I preach.
 

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aps said:
I would be surprised if anyone who considers themselves to be pro-choice as someone who supports abortion. We support a woman's right to choose to do what she wants with her own body should she get pregnant, as that is none of our business. That doesn't make us abortion supporters.

I know, it makes you pro-lifers feel morally superior to those who are not pro-life. Yawn.
Oh goodie!!! This is one of my favorite aspects of this debate and I am so glad you brought it up. And to steal all my thunder, you already hit the nail on the head. Its about a supposed moral superiority that the pro oppression crowd has always had. The pro-lie stance has always been guilty of revisionist tactics...and their deception runs deep. On some sites they claim abortion causes increases in breast cancer...and they made this maliciously deceitful claim to the point that the National Cancer Institute had to waste money that could have gone toward real research on publishing literature to counter the lie.

The anti choice crowd also make wild claims that medical terminology concerning fetal development was instituted for the sole purpose of dehumanizing the supposed "unborn child". Point in fact, this is an outright lie disseminated by a movement that has no basis for its existence except a constant undermining of medical and scientific progress. Its only power is in the attempt to illegally control a woman's reproductive rights.

The anti liberty also falsely propogates the LIE that the Vatican has made a definitive stance on abortion. This, while not being completely false, is a gross misrepresentation which I find personally offensive. The catholic church has been in a constant flip flop as to whether abortion is murder or not. For example:

(354-430); and Cyril of Alexandria (c. 444) held that "Abortion, if early, is not homicide." Delayed hominization or ensoulment was an accepted principle. St. Augustine stated:

"The great question about the soul is not hastily decided by unargued and rash judgment; the law does not provide that the act (abortion) pertains to homicide, for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation when it is not formed flesh, and so not yet endowed with sense." (On Exodus, 21.80) (CSEL 28.147).
Or perhaps:

Further, the following was stated as recently as 1974:

"Instruction On Respect For Human Life In Its Origin and On The Dignity of Procreation"

Vatican stated: ". . . the magisterium has not expressly commited itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature concerning the presence of the spiritual soul and personhood;" and


In 1999, Church scholar Dr. Marjorie Reilly McGuire, PhD, Catholic Theologian

"the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on abortion has never been taught as an ex cathedra infallible teaching nor would it be—given the historical inconsistency of Church teaching on the subject."

So as you see...the pro women's slavery camp is built on lies and spin; just as every emboldened appellation I gave them, their whole stance is built on nothing but spin.
 

tecoyah

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Felicity said:
You're welcome...but if you think I don't have entirely secular reasons for my point of view--you are mistaken.;)
BTW--who is making an unwarranted judgment? You have made assumptions about my life experience that are entirely mistaken.
My intent is not to in any way debase your religious beliefs, I have simply been around the block far too many times with such debates to have any interest in slamming my head against that wall again. I have found that those basing this debate on such a backgrond seldom (if ever) wish to listen , but rather just want a podium.....the stage is yours.
I do remember now though....why I avoided conversation with you....sorry to bother.
 

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tecoyah said:
My intent is not to in any way debase your religious beliefs, I have simply been around the block far too many times with such debates to have any interest in slamming my head against that wall again. I have found that those basing this debate on such a backgrond seldom (if ever) wish to listen , but rather just want a podium.....the stage is yours.
I do remember now though....why I avoided conversation with you....sorry to bother.
Did my follow on explanations somehow confirm your belief that my position is merely a religious tautology?


Or are you just chicken?:confused:
 

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Felicity said:
Did my follow on explanations somehow confirm your belief that my position is merely a religious tautology?


Or are you just chicken?:confused:
At no point did I say your beliefs were entirely based on Dogma...that would be unlikely. To be completely honest I was refering to the general lack of open mindedness I have experienced from the People who are overly religious. I just no longer feel inclined to have the same debate, articulate or not, again and again. But yes....there was a distinct measure of the faithful in your responses....not a bad thing in itself, it just made me realize the futility of debating an issue with someone of a mindset I am familiar with, having been there myself once upon a time.
I was once very Catholic as well .....its just not for me anymore, primarily due to the blinders I was required to wear.

Lets just call me chicken...ok....and be done with it.
 

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tecoyah said:
Lets just call me chicken...ok....and be done with it.
That's a shame.:(

I once was very much as you seem to term it "open-minded." But it appears that your position is only worthy to defend if you think your opponent is weak in his or her resolve. That speaks more of YOUR conviction than anything else. Thanks for your honesty.

...And I did pray for you tonight.:2wave:
 

tecoyah

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Felicity said:
That's a shame.:(

I once was very much as you seem to term it "open-minded." But it appears that your position is only worthy to defend if you think your opponent is weak in his or her resolve. That speaks more of YOUR conviction than anything else. Thanks for your honesty.

...And I did pray for you tonight.:2wave:

And I am sure you wonder....why so few decide to get into these little debates with you. The little Jab is not needed Felicity....Have a good night
 

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tecoyah said:
And I am sure you wonder....why so few decide to get into these little debates with you. The little Jab is not needed Felicity....Have a good night

Sorry if I offended you...good night.
 
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