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For the purposes of this argument, I’m going to use the Abrahamic God as an example, because so many people have claimed that he takes a personal and immediate interest in what humans are doing.
So let’s assume for the moment that he does.
God has given you intellect, senses, and the ability to reason through problems. So it almost goes without saying that he expects you to use those gifts. And that you be honest enough with yourself not to deny what these gifts tell you about your world.
It follows that God, if he were interested enough that he wanted you to take a particular course of action over a different one, would convey a message to you. Most importantly, it would have to be a message that you could somehow authenticate, given that the world is so full of malicious third parties who falsely claim to be God’s representatives. In other words, how do you know that any given directive is coming from the “real” God? You would have to rely on your own intellect and judgment to prove it somehow.
Has there ever been a foolproof way to identify a legitimate message from God? No. Therefore the assumption that an interested god exists leads to a contradiction.
To clarify, this argument doesn’t proof the non-existence of the Abrahamic God or any other god. It just proves that if any such gods exist, they aren’t micromanaging us.
In fact, I don't care whether others believe or not. I also have no idea why so many who don't believe question those who do. The general consensus expressed here among most atheists is that such believers are idiots. Given that, I also wonder why so many self-proclaimed superior beings choose to spend time discussing anything with idiots.
Do tell. Do you love your mother?
All interesting but totally off the wall.
As usual with atheists who are obsessed with the god they deny, you failed to take in one thing. Free will.
How about someone believing their lack of belief should supersede someone else's faith. In other words, why do so many of you care if others believe or not?
Oh?
How many would that be? Can you list the number of times someone has tried to convert you? Or is it so many you can't count.
The truth is for every thread in here even about Christianity are outnumbered by the hundreds of atheists presenting arguments for the non-existence of a god. If there is no god in their opinion how come they always have to convince someone else?
I don't give an iota what you believe. Seriously I could care less, it simply isn't part of my life. But for some reason we have to put up with it seems two to three posts per week of some poster ignorant of all philosophical reasoning or knowledge has to spew their crap. For **** sakes, if your life is full without a god, what the **** are are all the atheists acting like attention whores?
First of all, I'm an agnostic, not an atheist.
Second, the existence of free will does not in any way undermine the original argument: in fact, it reinforces it. I'll leave it as an exercise for you to figure out why.
The only possible way would be to rely on the assumption that there is only one entity with powers that resemble the god's. Which is perhaps the philosophical problem that polytheism ran into, but I'm just speculating on that one.
Why not take that logic and apply it to any number of issues? This is a political and issues oriented forum, where people come here for the intent purpose of discussing their belief systems on a myriad of issues. Religion and atheism happen to fit the bill.
For me, I like to discuss these things with atheists and theists to better understand my own positions, and to see where the other side is coming from. I used to be a "hardened atheist" and me spending time discussing these very issues we are talking about with you guys has caused me to soften my approach and empathize, and even respect religious belief.
I read far more of the Bible than I ever cared to when I was attending parochial schools. It has some interesting narratives, but nothing that surprises me anymore.
First of all, I'm an agnostic, not an atheist.
Second, the existence of free will does not in any way undermine the original argument: in fact, it reinforces it. I'll leave it as an exercise for you to figure out why.
Did you combine that with faith? A least a little?
Get this:
I DON"T CARE!
If free will did not exist, God would be forced to micromanage people because otherwise we would do nothing and die. Free will is a perfect opportunity for God to ignore what goes on with people.I would be curious what connection the free will hypothesis has to your original conjecture.
Bingo.The way I have heard the free will argument presented by theists makes little sense. Goes something like this, if God announced his existence definitely, then we would somehow be compelled to worship him and therefore loose our free will.
If that were the case, how was lucifer and his cohorts able to rebel against God? They certainly knew of his existence, and yet exercised free will and rebelled anyway.
My statement wasn't meant to be insulting in any way. For skeptics, it's hard to just go by the words written by men thousands of years ago. Both my parents are atheists (conservative and republican too, which I know is an odd combination) and they raised me on these ideas of science. Therefore, when I was old enough to come across people of religious beliefs and comprehend their belief systems, my understanding of the world and how I view things was already settled. So to change that, I would need a higher burden of proof other than somebody's words in a book written thousands of years ago.
That's not to insult anyone's intelligence, because I find religion to be perfectly rational to be honest. There's a lot involved with religion that makes sense to me as to why people would believe in it.
Well, I suppose every kid prays for things they don't get, and I'm sure I was no exception. I probably lost whatever faith I may have had back then, in light of the poor results.
I don't know how old you are now but, your studies and your faith will return as you get older and find how needed it becomes in day to day life.
How about someone believing their lack of belief should supersede someone else's faith. In other words, why do so many of you care if others believe or not?
That's my point: if there's a god, it obviously doesn't give a flying fudge what humans do.
Not necessarily. Plenty of spiritually minded people don't believe in the Abrahamic god.
I don't know how old you are now but, your studies and your faith will return as you get older and find how needed it becomes in day to day life.
For the purposes of this argument, I’m going to use the Abrahamic God as an example, because so many people have claimed that he takes a personal and immediate interest in what humans are doing.
So let’s assume for the moment that he does.
God has given you intellect, senses, and the ability to reason through problems. So it almost goes without saying that he expects you to use those gifts. And that you be honest enough with yourself not to deny what these gifts tell you about your world.
It follows that God, if he were interested enough that he wanted you to take a particular course of action over a different one, would convey a message to you. Most importantly, it would have to be a message that you could somehow authenticate, given that the world is so full of malicious third parties who falsely claim to be God’s representatives. In other words, how do you know that any given directive is coming from the “real” God? You would have to rely on your own intellect and judgment to prove it somehow.
Has there ever been a foolproof way to identify a legitimate message from God? No. Therefore the assumption that an interested god exists leads to a contradiction.
To clarify, this argument doesn’t proof the non-existence of the Abrahamic God or any other god. It just proves that if any such gods exist, they aren’t micromanaging us.
That's totally bogus. Believers with the Holy Spirit have numerous interactions / direction / leadings / words of knowledge, etc., etc. from the Lord. Sometimes these are very rare but for those totally dedicated they are more common.
And he does care about people. The cross at Calvary bears witness to that.
I always find it amazing how people who aren't attuned to the divine want to try to convince people the divine isn't interested in them.
The devil is spiritual, so just saying that someone who is spiritual doesn't believe in the Abrahamic god isn't a very good argument, because they can certainly be spiritually deluded / deranged.
You are assuming that his path and your path are the same. That is not necessarily true. I knew someone who was religious all their life, and lost 'faith' when they were over 80. I also know people who never had faith, even up to their facing mortality and death. Different people have different spiritual and emotional needs.
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