Which position has aged better since October 7th?

[Dans La Lune]

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy; Israel isn't committing a genocide, and everything they do in reaction to Hamas is justified. Every civilian death, deliberate and otherwise, is due to Hamas, not Israel, and the atrocities would stop if Hamas just released the hostages. Everyone who criticizes what Israel is doing is an antisemite. Any notion to the contrary is because Hamas controls the media.

The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality; Israel is committing a genocide and engaging in ethnic cleansing, and the mission to expand colonization. Israel is ultimately the aggressor. Everyone guilty of war crimes on either side must be held accountable by international law. Mass lies must not be used as the predicate for mass violence. All hostages should be released on both sides.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Dontcha just love the loaded language here folks?

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy
The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

So when asked Which position has aged better since October 7th? We are already being led by our noses to answer a certain way.

Well, I will answer for myself without the obvious biased slant of the question:

It has come to light lately (though some will claim it's fake news, always their excuse) that Hamas has been raiding aid trucks and hoarding food. And apparently the masses that are starving don't have enough strength or will to take out Hamas themselves. Apparently. So easier to cry fowl over the actions of Israel.

Look people, we ALL grieve for the Palestinians, but being of German descent, I also grieve for my father's generation when thousands of innocent Germans were killed in WW2, but Hitler had to be removed and the Nazi regime had to be removed.

If the Palestinians kept supporting Hamas (which they did) they are at least partial responsible for Israel's reaction to what came after.

Doesn't mean the actions Israel is taking is justified. They COULD BE more surgical. Even if it would take years to hunt down and eliminate Hamas members, it would be better than endless bombing.

So, I say a pox on both houses. Seriously. If you support a terrorist organization like Hamas you have it coming, but Israel could be more surgical and humanitarian in their approach.

What I won't do, is tip my obvious bias and make only one side seem heinous while excusing the other side, so tripe like..........

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy
The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

....... won't cut it for me and makes the entire presentation here laughable.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Dontcha just love the loaded language here folks?

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy
The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

So when asked Which position has aged better since October 7th? We are already being led by our noses to answer a certain way.

Well, I will answer for myself without the obvious biased slant of the question:

It has come to light lately (though some will claim it's fake news, always their excuse) that Hamas has been raiding aid trucks and hoarding food. And apparently the masses that are starving don't have enough strength or will to take out Hamas themselves. Apparently. So easier to cry fowl over the actions of Israel.

Look people, we ALL grieve for the Palestinians, but being of German descent, I also grieve for my father's generation when thousands of innocent Germans were killed in WW2, but Hitler had to be removed and the Nazi regime had to be removed.

If the Palestinians kept supporting Hamas (which they did) they are at least partial responsible for Israel's reaction to what came after.

Doesn't mean the actions Israel is taking is justified. They COULD BE more surgical. Even if it would take years to hunt down and eliminate Hamas members, it would be better than endless bombing.

So, I say a pox on both houses. Seriously. If you support a terrorist organization like Hamas you have it coming, but Israel could be more surgical and humanitarian in their approach.

What I won't do, is tip my obvious bias and make only one side seem heinous while excusing the other side, so tripe like..........

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy
The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

....... won't cut it for me and makes the entire presentation here laughable.

Zionism is a religious an ethno-supremacist ideology. I mean, a Jewish State where Israeli Jews have control, and which seeks to expand its borders. Apply it to any other group you'd come to the same conclusion.

And as for my presentation of the arguments, they are basically Cut and Paste from the pro-Israeli positions posted on these forums and elsewhere. As for the pro-Palestinian position, I feel I can represent that one well since I am on that side.

I'm not going to hide me bias, and both sides are not equally at fault. And if you believe otherwise, you are already enormously biased in favor of Israel.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Imagine having the dumb**** temerity to say that the pro-Israel position isn't that Jews are entitled to the land and resources of the indigenous people, and that stating this plainly is somehow biased. That's the whole ****ing point of the ideology. Israelis freely admit it and barely dress up as anything other than that.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Neither side of this conflict looks good.

 

[Integrityrespec]

Dontcha just love the loaded language here folks?

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy
The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

So when asked Which position has aged better since October 7th? We are already being led by our noses to answer a certain way.

Well, I will answer for myself without the obvious biased slant of the question:

It has come to light lately (though some will claim it's fake news, always their excuse) that Hamas has been raiding aid trucks and hoarding food. And apparently the masses that are starving don't have enough strength or will to take out Hamas themselves. Apparently. So easier to cry fowl over the actions of Israel.

Look people, we ALL grieve for the Palestinians, but being of German descent, I also grieve for my father's generation when thousands of innocent Germans were killed in WW2, but Hitler had to be removed and the Nazi regime had to be removed.

If the Palestinians kept supporting Hamas (which they did) they are at least partial responsible for Israel's reaction to what came after.

Doesn't mean the actions Israel is taking is justified. They COULD BE more surgical. Even if it would take years to hunt down and eliminate Hamas members, it would be better than endless bombing.

So, I say a pox on both houses. Seriously. If you support a terrorist organization like Hamas you have it coming, but Israel could be more surgical and humanitarian in their approach.

What I won't do, is tip my obvious bias and make only one side seem heinous while excusing the other side, so tripe like..........

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy
The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

....... won't cut it for me and makes the entire presentation here laughable.

Can't believe I'm going to agree with at least some of what you posted. There is always some blame that may be attributed to each side in how any war, and this is war, is pursued. In this case it's important to do the research and have knowledge of the history and creation of the modern Jewish state of Israel and the Palestinian position on the creation of Israel. At the base of this conflict is who initiated the violence going back to 1948 and to the most recent escalation of the conflict.
I would differ in that surgical strikes are difficult in an area like Gaza and would definitely take a long time to achieve the goal of eliminating Hamas. My opinion is it's best to get it done as quickly as possible in light of how we have seen smaller responses haven't led to an end of missile attacks and suicide bombings carried out upon Israel and the warfare against Israel for seven decades.
In the present I don't see any softening of Palestinian's often stated goal of eliminating Israel and the Jewish people. It is my view that Israel has been fighting against 70 years of attacks and has decided to eliminate as much of the threat as possible.
Lastly, I believe Israel has a right to exist in peace and it is the Palestinians that continue to violate any peace in the region with a long history of aggression.

 

[Allan]

Neither side of this conflict looks good.

Bingo. Each side's sponsors (Iran and the US) also aren't looking good.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Can't believe I'm going to agree with at least some of what you posted. There is always some blame that may be attributed to each side in how any war, and this is war, is pursued. In this case it's important to do the research and have knowledge of the history and creation of the modern Jewish state of Israel and the Palestinian position on the creation of Israel.

That history being Palestinians being offered less than half of what they had previously had and acting as any indigenous people would, and then being occupied for decades for not being the perfect victim.

At the base of this conflict is who initiated the violence going back to 1948 and to the most recent escalation of the conflict.

At every turn Israel is the aggressor, even in the events leading up to October 7th.

I would differ in that surgical strikes are difficult in an area like Gaza and would definitely take a long time to achieve the goal of eliminating Hamas. My opinion is it's best to get it done as quickly as possible in light of how we have seen smaller responses haven't led to an end of missile attacks and suicide bombings carried out upon Israel and the warfare against Israel for seven decades.

You're pretending that the goal is just to take out Hamas.

In the present I don't see any softening of Palestinian's often stated goal of eliminating Israel and the Jewish people.

Why would a group that originates from occupation and oppression legitimize that occupation and oppression? I mean, aside from the fact that Hamas agreed to recognize Israel in exchange for concessions along the '67 borders. Meanwhile, prior to October 7th, we have Netanyahu making indications of erasing Palestinians from history.

It is my view that Israel has been fighting against 70 years of attacks and has decided to eliminate as much of the threat as possible.

Why are Palestinian attacks illegitimate, and Israeli attacks are self-defense?

Lastly, I believe Israel has a right to exist in peace and it is the Palestinians that continue to violate any peace in the region with a long history of aggression.

Literally the opposite is true.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Bingo. Each side's sponsors (Iran and the US) also aren't looking good.

Hamas isn't a proxy of Iran. They have historically received support from Iran, but it isn't anywhere near as direct as the US' relationship is with Israel. Nor is it anywhere near the scale or scope. Also, Hamas exists independent of Iran, whereas Israel cannot exist in its current state without America.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Neither side of this conflict looks good.

Yeah, but the reason Palestinians look bad is because they are legit walking skeletons in many cases.

 

[Allan]

Yeah, but the reason Palestinians look bad is because they are legit walking skeletons in many cases.

Something to consider is that with the passage of time Hamas fighters might also be starving. If they are then certainly the hostages are as well.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Something to consider is that with the passage of time Hamas fighters might also be starving. If they are then certainly the hostages are as well.

No doubt. And the reason Hamas is almost as plentiful now as pre-October 7th is that more of the population has joined their ranks. Both out of irrevocable rage at having lost their entire families, and also out of preservation.

What a strategy.

Groups like Hamas doesn't exist in the absence of enormous oppression.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Dontcha just love the loaded language here folks?

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy
The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

So when asked Which position has aged better since October 7th? We are already being led by our noses to answer a certain way.

Well, I will answer for myself without the obvious biased slant of the question:

It has come to light lately (though some will claim it's fake news, always their excuse) that Hamas has been raiding aid trucks and hoarding food. And apparently the masses that are starving don't have enough strength or will to take out Hamas themselves. Apparently. So easier to cry fowl over the actions of Israel.

Look people, we ALL grieve for the Palestinians, but being of German descent, I also grieve for my father's generation when thousands of innocent Germans were killed in WW2, but Hitler had to be removed and the Nazi regime had to be removed.

If the Palestinians kept supporting Hamas (which they did) they are at least partial responsible for Israel's reaction to what came after.

Doesn't mean the actions Israel is taking is justified. They COULD BE more surgical. Even if it would take years to hunt down and eliminate Hamas members, it would be better than endless bombing.

So, I say a pox on both houses. Seriously. If you support a terrorist organization like Hamas you have it coming, but Israel could be more surgical and humanitarian in their approach.

What I won't do, is tip my obvious bias and make only one side seem heinous while excusing the other side, so tripe like..........

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy
The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

....... won't cut it for me and makes the entire presentation here laughable.

Also, it should be noted that @Fledermaus is among the people I pulled those pro-Israeli arguments from.

 

[Fledermaus]

Also, it should be noted that @Fledermaus is among the people I pulled those pro-Israeli arguments from.

Then have the balls to quote me.

 

[What if...?]

Dontcha just love the loaded language here folks?

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy
The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

So when asked Which position has aged better since October 7th? We are already being led by our noses to answer a certain way.

Well, I will answer for myself without the obvious biased slant of the question:

It has come to light lately (though some will claim it's fake news, always their excuse) that Hamas has been raiding aid trucks and hoarding food. And apparently the masses that are starving don't have enough strength or will to take out Hamas themselves. Apparently. So easier to cry fowl over the actions of Israel.

Look people, we ALL grieve for the Palestinians, but being of German descent, I also grieve for my father's generation when thousands of innocent Germans were killed in WW2, but Hitler had to be removed and the Nazi regime had to be removed.

If the Palestinians kept supporting Hamas (which they did) they are at least partial responsible for Israel's reaction to what came after.

Doesn't mean the actions Israel is taking is justified. They COULD BE more surgical. Even if it would take years to hunt down and eliminate Hamas members, it would be better than endless bombing.

So, I say a pox on both houses. Seriously. If you support a terrorist organization like Hamas you have it coming, but Israel could be more surgical and humanitarian in their approach.

What I won't do, is tip my obvious bias and make only one side seem heinous while excusing the other side, so tripe like..........

The Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy
The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

....... won't cut it for me and makes the entire presentation here laughable.

Unfortunately Israel has always had designs on all the land allocated to the original residents as well as parts of other neighboring nations. They could never absorb them. They outnumbered the Jews and reproduced faster. No permanent Jewish majority democracy then.

And nobody talks about the use of the term “Eretz Israel” in their declaration of statehood.

Feel free to check it out. There are more than one map of twist that includes. But they all include ALL of the land allocated to the Jews and the Palestinians by the mandate as well as pieces of all the neighboring states.

It is also interesting that “Zionist” is now an official slur. But Zionist refers to an actual Jewish movement that began in Russia in the late 1800s whose platform is almost identical to that of Bibi’s government. And also states intent to gain control of “Eretz Israel”.

Our concept of what has been going on there for almost a century bears little resemblance to what has actually been going on.

The ADL is not considered the premiere outfit in the propaganda industries for nothing.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Unfortunately Israel has always had designs on all the land allocated to the original residents as well as parts of other neighboring nations. They could never absorb them. They outnumbered the Jews and reproduced faster. No permanent Jewish majority democracy then.

And nobody talks about the use of the term “Eretz Israel” in their declaration of statehood.

Feel free to check it out. There are more than one map of twist that includes. But they all include ALL of the land allocated to the Jews and the Palestinians by the mandate as well as pieces of all the neighboring states.

It is also interesting that “Zionist” is now an official slur. But Zionist refers to an actual Jewish movement that began in Russia in the late 1800s whose platform is almost identical to that of Bibi’s government. And also states intent to gain control of “Eretz Israel”.

Our concept of what has been going on there for almost a century bears little resemblance to what has actually been going on.

The ADL is not considered the premiere outfit in the propaganda industries for nothing.

Nothing wrong with your analysis. Some might disagree, but that is what debate is about.
My grievance is strictly on the loaded one-sided questions being asked in the opening remarks by the OP.
It leads us to make one of two choices, a bad one:

he Pro-Israel / Zionist Position: Israeli supremacy

Or a good one:

The Pro-Palestinian Position: Palestinian freedom and equality

Nothing is THAT cut and dry. And we can have differing opinions. But to start off saying ONE side is good the other side is bad and then asking us - disingenuously - to vote which we support doesn't allow for nuanced responses. It is meant to expose YOU to either being a pro-Israel supremacist or being a nicer person because you voted for Palestinian freedom.

 

[What if...?]

Nothing wrong with your analysis. Some might disagree, but that is what debate is about.
My grievance is strictly on the loaded one-sided questions being asked in the opening remarks by the OP.
It leads us to make one of two choices, a bad one:

Or a good one:

Nothing is THAT cut and dry. And we can have differing opinions. But to start off saying ONE side is good the other side is bad and then asking us - disingenuously - to vote which we support doesn't allow for nuanced responses. It is meant to expose YOU to either being a pro-Israel supremacist or being a nicer person because you voted for Palestinian freedom.

I’ve mostly been trying to get people to look beyond the narratives.

Ironically I came to my understanding after getting gigged by martial law way back when.

I don’t think that was fair or accurate so I simply searched all the forbidden topics.

Which was so appalling I was convinced it was all anti Israel propaganda.

So I went to solely Jewish/Israeli sources.

And it got zero percent better.

I wonder how many Americans even know that Israel lied about the Nakba. Told a story that the Arab aggressors sent word out over the radio to run to the Arab army saviors who would get rid of the Jews for them.

What they didn’t know was that the BBC records a lot of local radio broadcasts all over the world and had complete recordings of all broadcasts in that area up to during and after the night of the Nakba.

There was no broadcast that could even have been interpreted to coincide with the heroic narrative, and the Historian who discovered it was an Israeli Jew.

So they confessed. But somehow, the fact that the event that started it all was lied about has done exactly nothing to mitigate our support for Israel.

My favorite incident was the “Refuseniks”. Israeli soldiers who refused to continue to participate in the nightly random selection of Palestinian homes to have their doors kicked in, at dinner time, and the families held at gunpoint while they destroyed the interior of the home searching for “weapons”.

All one needs do is imagine if our government did that to one of us and how much sympathy we would have for those soldiers or their families if somebody did something terrible to them.