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Excellent post and topic.Here's my take in a nutshell - ALL of the US Constitution matters, equally.
<snipped for brevity>
I think it provides insight into the times as they were then.I think it's safe to say that the Third has been moot or irrelevant almost since the beginning. I doubt it has ever been cited by any court decision.
But it does provide insight regarding the popular sentiment against a standing army.
Teetering with the constitution is a slippery slope. I think unless the nation is unanimous in what they want to change, it shouldn't be done.
For instance. The hippies love the first amendment. Those guys love a good protest or chance to spit on a veteran.
The countryboys love them some 2nd amendment. What's more fun than shooting beer cans all day long?
In a nutshell, just leave it alone.
Conservatives love the First Amendment except when you're saying something they don't want to hear, such as anything relating to sex, or stopping the government from imposing a state religion on citizens, or even freedom of the press when it isn't their press.The Hippies love the First Amendment except when you're saying something they don't want to hear, are addressing freedom of religion or even freedom of the press when it isn't their press.
The Framers were reasonably smart. They also were, for the most part, a bunch of wealthy, elite, slave-owning male aristocrats who did not agree on critical policies (like slavery, they punted on that), and could not possibly have predicted how their policies would play out 250+ years later in a society with 300 million plus citizens, autos, the Internet, cell phones, GPS, the NSA and so on.In my opinion, the founding fathers were brilliant and gave us a Constitution design to protect the minority from the majority and to protect all of us from the government.
:roll:Now, if we'd just consider following the Constitution.....
Conservatives love the First Amendment except when you're saying something they don't want to hear, such as anything relating to sex, or stopping the government from imposing a state religion on citizens, or even freedom of the press when it isn't their press.
See how that works? :mrgreen:
The Framers were reasonably smart. They also were, for the most part, a bunch of wealthy, elite, slave-owning male aristocrats who did not agree on critical policies (like slavery, they punted on that), and could not possibly have predicted how their policies would play out 250+ years later in a society with 300 million plus citizens, autos, the Internet, cell phones, GPS, the NSA and so on.
:roll:
Whenever anyone says this, what they REALLY mean is: "If only everyone did what I wanted them to do, everything would be great."
The reality is that we do in fact follow the Constitution, it just doesn't offer a good structure anymore. As noted already: It's stingy in the list of rights it protects. It has created a vetocracy, which makes it difficult to get anything done. Embedding distrust of government and a belief in its inefficiency is often what causes ineffective governance. Its structure forces a reliance on an unelected judiciary to make political decisions (a rarity in democratic societies), yet the people who decry this the loudest are also the most resistant to modifying the structure of government in order to reduce the importance of judicial review. (And no, whining about "judicial activism" when your side loses a ruling isn't enough.)
And blind worship of the Constitution, along with its own structure, makes it difficult -- if not impossible -- to modify our government.
The problem isn't that "we aren't following the Constitution." It's that the Constitution is a bad fit for the modern world.
The Hippies love the First Amendment except when you're saying something they don't want to hear, are addressing freedom of religion or even freedom of the press when it isn't their press.
In my opinion, the founding fathers were brilliant and gave us a Constitution design to protect the minority from the majority and to protect all of us from the government.
Now, if we'd just consider following the Constitution.....
Ok now you have gone too far, that would be living up to the actual ideals setup by the Founders, and according to some they were nothing but a bunch of slave holders living in the dark ages.
:roll:I do see how that works. And now the Democrats, weatlhy elites, want to do away with the Constitution and rule by fiat. See how that works.
Again: Your own comments make it very clear that you are conflating your own policy preferences with "what is Constitutional."What works is the Constitution. We should try it. We should do shocking things such as amending the Consitution is we wish but not pretending it deals with abortion and not simply ignoring it because the Democrat elites have the power.
:roll:
In case you missed it, the Republican party is also front-loaded with wealthy elites. For decades, their policies have benefitted the wealthy, by cutting their taxes; slashing regulations on their businesses, while passing regulations or tariffs to put their thumbs on the scale for their donors; shielding corporations from liability; putting wealthy cronies in charge of government agencies, and hastening regulatory capture. I could be here all day listing powerful and wealthy donors, ranging from Koch to Adelson to Thiele to....
Bush 43 spent lots of time ignoring and subverting the US Constitution, mostly by ignoring due process (warrantless wiretaps, military tribunals, Guantanamo etc) and the explicit prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment. John Yoo, formerly of the Office of Legal Council, basically said that could legally violate the entire Bill of Rights in the pursuit of counterterrorism efforts. Bush personally held the ability to indefinitely detain a suspect, with no due process and no protections against torture.
Bush 43 also slashed taxes for the wealthy; failed to enact even basic oversight of derivatives or mortgages or banks; deliberately prevented Medicare from haggling with Big Pharma over Medicare Part D prices.... The list goes on.
If you want to see rule by fiat, and to the benefit of the wealthy? Just look at Bush 43.
My views are certainly not held by the majority of Democrats. Contrary to -- if not invisible to -- the right is that Democrats routinely cite and point to the Constitution to support their policies. Ironically, my position is influenced by a former darling of the conservatives and a big proponent of liberal democracy, Francis Fukuyama:
The Decay of American Political Institutions - The American Interest
More importantly, you're setting up a false choice. It is not "we follow the US structure exactly, or are ruled by dictators!" That is exactly the kind of absurdity fostered by ignorant devotion to one specific system. There are alternatives, currently in use right now, that result in governments that are more effective, equally (or more) accountable, protect more rights, are able to move faster, are less prone to vetocratic blockades, and are not totalitarian in nature. England, Canada, Germany, Ireland, France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Japan come to mind.
Conservatives love the First Amendment except when you're saying something they don't want to hear, such as anything relating to sex, or stopping the government from imposing a state religion on citizens, or even freedom of the press when it isn't their press.
See how that works? :mrgreen:
The Framers were reasonably smart. They also were, for the most part, a bunch of wealthy, elite, slave-owning male aristocrats who did not agree on critical policies (like slavery, they punted on that), and could not possibly have predicted how their policies would play out 250+ years later in a society with 300 million plus citizens, autos, the Internet, cell phones, GPS, the NSA and so on.
:roll:
Whenever anyone says this, what they REALLY mean is: "If only everyone did what I wanted them to do, everything would be great."
The reality is that we do in fact follow the Constitution, it just doesn't offer a good structure anymore. As noted already: It's stingy in the list of rights it protects. It has created a vetocracy, which makes it difficult to get anything done. Embedding distrust of government and a belief in its inefficiency is often what causes ineffective governance. Its structure forces a reliance on an unelected judiciary to make political decisions (a rarity in democratic societies), yet the people who decry this the loudest are also the most resistant to modifying the structure of government in order to reduce the importance of judicial review. (And no, whining about "judicial activism" when your side loses a ruling isn't enough.)
And blind worship of the Constitution, along with its own structure, makes it difficult -- if not impossible -- to modify our government.
The problem isn't that "we aren't following the Constitution." It's that the Constitution is a bad fit for the modern world.
the same can be said of the democrats, both parties are corrupt, and have their own faction/special interest.
to infringe on the 1st Amendment Right of Muslims (as Trump has called for)
Will you stop with the utter nonsense?Not really. Republicans want jobs with everyone working. Democrats want more people on welfare, with their kids attending non-performing schools, with no jobs available, and no job skills that the market needs.
How do you not understand that is precisely the attitude that has alienated blacks for generations?Democrats intend to keep the ghettos intact for "their" black people.
:roll:Republicans are willing to try something new whether it's charters schools and vouchers or jobs for working class people. Democrats are willing to raise taxes and spend more money. That's their only solution.
Yes, conservatives love the ACLU. lolAnd I'm a fiscal conservative. I think the First Amendment, specifically the free speech provision is essential for our country. Liberal fight it tooth and nail.
lol... 1992 called and wants its bad arguments backThey have passed laws against free speech, which is what the First Amendment specifically forbids. Hate crimes are a free speech crime.
Who has passed laws forbidding words?Forbidden words are a free speech issue.
1992 is still on the phone for youForbidding prayers or mentioning gods is a free speech issue.
Will you stop with the utter nonsense?
Everyone wants good schools, good jobs, skilled workers and working markets. The difference between the parties in these respects is the method, not the goals.
How do you not understand that is precisely the attitude that has alienated blacks for generations?
:roll:
Republicans have spent years doing the same thing -- cutting taxes when the economy is good, cutting taxes when the economy is bad, and cutting education funding. Oh, and saying they'd cut spending, then turning around and increasing it.
Since you missed it, many of the attempts to tie safety nets to jobs, and to give the working poor tax credits (EITC), are actually bipartisan. It was Clinton who pushed for and signed into law "workfare" requirements; it was Reagan who started the EITC, and both Republicans and Democrats have
Both Republicans and Democrats have supported charter schools. Clinton even spoke in favor of charters in June.
And vouchers are not a "new idea," they are an old way to weaken the public schools and try to do an end-run around the *cough* Constitutional prohibition on the establishment of a religion.
Yes, conservatives love the ACLU. lol
lol... 1992 called and wants its bad arguments back
ANY criminal judgment involves attempts to determine the intent of the perpetrator; when we view the intent as more heinous, we increase the punishment. Hate crimes have nothing to do with speech, and no one is punished because of statements they made while *cough* committing a violent felony. Rather, it determines that if you commit a violent crime out of racial animus, then we adjust the punishments for those crimes appropriately.
Who has passed laws forbidding words?
1992 is still on the phone for you
There is only one reason to "forbid prayers," and that is when doing so would establish a religion -- a violation of the 1st Amendment. Ever heard of it?
I love it when people who claim to defend the Constitution don't seem to understand what it actually says....
You're not snarky.Snarky and stupid. Isn't it wonderful.
:roll:Democrats want strong teachers unions. Education, job skills, not necessary. And of course Democrats wants jobs in the cities and it's not their fault they drive the jobs out. Oh, wait. Yes, it is.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that treating blacks as an actual constituency, knowing the history of their transition of support away from Republicans to Democrats, and seeing that you openly patronize black voters, doesn't actually make me a racist."How do you not understand that is precisely the attitude that has alienated blacks for generations?"
I realize that makes sense to the racists. Do you understand that alienating Americans has nothing to do with race?
Why the GOP's Education Funding Bill Gets an F | US News OpinionCutting funding to education? That's hilarious. School budgets aren't cut.
That's because it is complete and utter nonsense. There is not the slightest bit of evidence that cutting taxes will spark enough growth to offset the lost revenues -- as Kansas and Louisiana are showing right now.And, cutting taxes and increasing revenues is a concept liberals can't understand.
I didn't ask for another screed. I asked for concrete examples. Which you did not provide."Who has passed laws forbidding words?"
I know this is a tough one for liberals who aren't familiar with the Constitution they hate but who passes laws.....
The principal at the school may not sponsor or promote a religious exercise. So if the valedictory speech has to be shown to the principal before it is delivered and the principal knows that it includes a prayer, the school is going to be held responsible for the content of the speech, including the prayer. The courts that have engaged this question so far have said, no, that’s not good. It becomes the school’s speech. The school owns that speech – is responsible for that speech – when it supervises and signs off.... Even when it’s a student, if it’s somehow part of the enterprise of the commencement that everyone in the audience has to involve themselves in the prayer, this perhaps crosses the line.And, how in the hell, does a high school valedictorian making a speech and thanking a god for success violate the establishment of religion clause?
So, that would be a "no, conservatives generally don't like the ACLU."I realize the left doesn't have much to work with but you could try harder. Oh, and I was a member of the ACLU but I'll admit I joined so I could write letters as a member asking them to return to defending the Constitution and to quit being shills for the left.
Not really. Republicans want jobs with everyone working. Democrats want more people on welfare, with their kids attending non-performing schools, with no jobs available, and no job skills that the market needs. Democrats intend to keep the ghettos intact for "their" black people.
Republicans are willing to try something new whether it's charters schools and vouchers or jobs for working class people. Democrats are willing to raise taxes and spend more money. That's their only solution.
And I'm a fiscal conservative. I think the First Amendment, specifically the free speech provision is essential for our country. Liberal fight it tooth and nail. They have passed laws against free speech, which is what the First Amendment specifically forbids. Hate crimes are a free speech crime. Forbidden words are a free speech issue. Forbidding prayers or mentioning gods is a free speech issue. It's been Sen. Reid, Sen. Clinton, and Donald Trump who preach for more restrictions on free speech. All are liberal Democrats. All are proud liars.
republicans like democrats have their factions, who they play to and do their bidding.
ask yourself a question when Bush was elected in 2000 -2006 we had for the first time since the 1950's a republican congress and president, why did the republicans not roll back many liberal things which had been created since the 1960's?
with that power they had, they could have done so many things they claimed they would do if they ever got such power.
why didn't they get rid of the dept of education?..but create "no child left behind"
why did they expand government and make it bigger?..patriot act.
one thing people need to stop doing is quite playing the republican/democract game, and start thinking clearly without party influence.
Because Republicans have been liberals for years. President Nixon initiated Affimative Action, he wanted nationalized health care and couldn't get it but he did get SSI, a factory for fraud. He also founded the liberal boondoggle of the EPA.
Why didn't President Clinton when he was first prsident and had a Democrat congress implement nationalized healthcare? Because, congress was Democrat but at the time Democrat wasn't synonymous with socialist.
in 92-93 the Clinton adminstartion tried too get healthcare, it failed because the nation did not want it, dont you remember the healthcare bus, which was going around the u.s. trying to sell the idea?
after that the congress became republican for the first time in about 40 years.
i am pointing out both parties suck, and are about power and money and not about what is good for the people- the states- and the union.
Do you remember Hillary's healthcare plan? No, because you never heard what it was. When the Democrats gave us Obamacare the people didn't want it but since when to the Democrats care about that. it's what they can get away with. All hail, Dr. Gruber, and his saluted to stupid Americans.
Ok now you have gone too far, that would be living up to the actual ideals setup by the Founders, and according to some they were nothing but a bunch of slave holders living in the dark ages.
Slavery isnt in the Constitution.
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Correct, in fact it is distinctly antislavery.
I do not see either Party saying anyone is not a person.The Constitution ensures that slavery would be abolished.
The problem then is the same problem today, by the same party. Trying to define who is a person or not.
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I do not see either Party saying anyone is not a person.
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