Which country is it?

[WI Crippler]

Per a discussion with Iriemon, he asserts that the Italians had always been the butt of jokes, referring to them as traditionally surrendering. And that this view changed when the French refused to go to war with us in Iraq.

I assert that in fact the French have always been the butt of the "surrender" jokes and stereotypes, including the times preceding Iraq.

What say ye??

 

[Adrian]

And if there's one thing that is not at all over used, and is always hilarious no matter how many times it's said, it's a French surrender joke.

 

[partier9]

Italy had the roman empire, france will never best that.

 

[partier9]

France is made fun of its military because it is true. Agincourt anyone


Brief History of France at War
I posted this before.

Gallic Wars - Lost
In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

Hundred Years War - Mostly lost
Saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare: "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman."

Italian Wars - Lost
France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

Wars of Religion
France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots.

Thirty Years War
France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

War of Devolution - Tied
Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

The Dutch War - Tied

War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War - Lost...
but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.

War of the Spanish Succession - Lost
The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved ever since.

American Revolution
In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare: "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

French Revolution - Won
Primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.

The Napoleonic Wars - Lost
Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

The Franco-Prussian War - Lost
Germany first plays the role of drunk frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

World War I - Tied...
and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States.

World War II - Lost
Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

War in Indochina - Lost
French forces plead sickness, take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu.

Algerian Rebellion - Lost
Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare: "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Esquimaux.

1991 Gulf War - Won
Refer to Second Rule of French Warfare: "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

War on Terrorism - France
Keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.
FINAL TALLY: Won = 3; Lost = 10; Tied = 5.

Now, do we REALLY want them on our side

 

[Hatuey]

Well to be fair....they did win....and lose the french revolution.....

Seriously....French surrender jokes are never out of fashion.....

Example : Britney lost her kids and France surrendered.

 

[Redfactor]

Oh comon guys... they have a pretty elite group in the French Foreign Legion.


... oh wait the guys in the legion aren't French.


Yup, French military sucks.

 

[Iriemon]

For the record, the OP mistates my contention. My contention was that jokes about poor fighters had traditionally been made about the Italians, and ranking on the French about their fighting ability only came into fashion in recent years as a result of neocons getting their panties in a knot about France because France was completely right about Iraq and the neocons were completely wrong.

Anyone interested can read my posts in this thread:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/lighter-side/29145-going-war-france-like-2.html

Neocons -- ya'll have fun!

 

[Gipper]

Going to war without France is like going hunting without your accordion.

 

[partier9]

For the record, the OP mistates my contention. My contention was that jokes about poor fighters had traditionally been made about the Italians, and ranking on the French about their fighting ability only came into fashion in recent years as a result of neocons getting their panties in a knot about France because France was completely right about Iraq and the neocons were completely wrong.

Anyone interested can read my posts in this thread:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/lighter-side/29145-going-war-france-like-2.html

Neocons -- ya'll have fun!

You got that wrong people have been making fun of the french way before iraq. Like the english. For the passed thousand years. Italy had the roman empire. And they had the catholic church when thats all there was.

 

[Slainte]

Q: Why was a Frenchman with a white flag running behind the Italian?
A :The Frenchman was trying to surrender, but the Italian kept retreating.

:mrgreen:

Seriously though, people who think the French are weak generally don't know history. Historically the French were always the largest and most powerful homogeneous group in Europe. They had about a quarter of Europes population up untill 1800 I think. That's why we had the concert of Europe and basically started international alliances, without all the other European countries helping each other the French would have destroyed us.

Then something weird happened; birth rates in France collapsed while they boomed in the UK, Germany and Russia. In 1919 there were someting like 75 million German speakers in Europe and 40 million French speakers. Those are pretty daunting odds if you're a Frenchman, people seem to think that in world war 1 and 2 the countries were pretty evenly matched, they weren't really.

 

[Redfactor]

Going to war without France is like going hunting without your accordion.

haha

very funny

 

[Iriemon]

Oh comon guys... they have a pretty elite group in the French Foreign Legion.

... oh wait the guys in the legion aren't French.

Yup, French military sucks.

While most of the Legion's commissioned officers are French, approximately 10% of them are former Legionnaires who have risen through the ranks. The rest of the Legion is made up of men from a wide variety of nationalities, with French citizens representing 60% of the Legionnaires.
French Foreign Legion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/

Hmmm, this acknowledge elite unit is 60% French with 90% French officers.

Based on the mistake you made in your facts I wouldn't put a whole lot of weight in the conclusion.

 

[partier9]

Q: Why was a Frenchman with a white flag running behind the Italian?
A :The Frenchman was trying to surrender, but the Italian kept retreating.

:mrgreen:

Seriously though, people who think the French are weak generally don't know history. Historically the French were always the largest and most powerful homogeneous group in Europe. They had about a quarter of Europes population up untill 1800 I think. That's why we had the concert of Europe and basically started international alliances, without all the other European countries helping each other the French would have destroyed us.

Then something weird happened; birth rates in France collapsed while they boomed in the UK, Germany and Russia. In 1919 there were someting like 75 million German speakers in Europe and 40 million French speakers. Those are pretty daunting odds if you're a Frenchman, people seem to think that in world war 1 and 2 the countries were pretty evenly matched, they weren't really.

did you not read the article about the wars that i posted? they seemed wicked powerful to me.

Brief History of France at War

 

[Slainte]

did you not read the article about the wars that i posted? they seemed wicked powerful to me.

Yeah it was very scholarly.

You could tell it was American.

You guys don't have your own history so you try and bastardise ours :mrgreen:

The only reason Scotland existed autonomously for about 400 years was because of the French, they kept us propped up just like they propped up America during your revolution, we should both be greatful to the French.

 

[rsixing]

FOR SALE: WWII french rifles. Perfect condition. Never fired. Only dropped once.

:mrgreen:

 

[partier9]

Yeah it was very scholarly.

You could tell it was American.

You guys don't have your own history so you try and bastardise ours :mrgreen:

The only reason Scotland existed autonomously for about 400 years was because of the French, they kept us propped up just like they were the only reason the US got independance a bit later

Oh cetainly they were on of the biggest empires in europe they just have a habit of losing. They did help us win our independance, and the french did certainly help the scots.

Now on the other hand, how did they fair with both world wars? We had to go into vietnam and clean up there mess. Granted we didn't do so well. The famous battle of agincourt, how did they do there? Franco-Prussian war? I can go on and on but you get my point.:mrgreen:

 

[Panache]

For the record, the OP mistates my contention. My contention was that jokes about poor fighters had traditionally been made about the Italians, and ranking on the French about their fighting ability only came into fashion in recent years as a result of neocons getting their panties in a knot about France because France was completely right about Iraq and the neocons were completely wrong

.

Actually I believe it came about around World War II. I know I heard this joke prior to 9/11:

A group of Americans, retired teachers, recently went to France on a tour. Robert Whiting, an elderly gentleman of 83, arrived in Paris by plane. At French Customs, he took a few minutes to locate his passport in his carry on. 'You have been to France before, monsieur? 'The customs officer asked sarcastically.

Mr. Whiting admitted that he had been to France previously. 'Then you should know enough to have your passport ready. "The American said, 'The last time I was here, I didn't have to show it.' 'Impossible. Americans always have to show your passports on arrival in France!'

The American senior gave the Frenchman a long hard look. Then he quietly explained. 'Well, when I came ashore at Omaha Beach on D-Day in '44 to help liberate this country, I couldn't find any damn Frenchmen to show it to.'

 

[Redfactor]

While most of the Legion's commissioned officers are French, approximately 10% of them are former Legionnaires who have risen through the ranks. The rest of the Legion is made up of men from a wide variety of nationalities, with French citizens representing 60% of the Legionnaires.
French Foreign Legion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/

Hmmm, this acknowledge elite unit is 60% French with 90% French officers.

Based on the mistake you made in your facts I wouldn't put a whole lot of weight in the conclusion.

You're a master at research, I gotta give that to you...

In any case, the legion has been historically comprised of foreign members. Historically, the French members were criminals that gave fake information and claimed to be from another country upon recruitment. The legion was basically a fresh start at life for anyone.

The 60% French is a relatively recent thing, same as having higher standards than they used to (i.e. not allowing criminals). This is because of how small the legion is and how elite their perception is.

But yeah, I'm glad that you took the 30 seconds to google French Foreign Legion, read the first two sentences of an online encyclopedia, and then feel like you'd done sufficient research to put your foot in your mouth here.

 

[bub]

Italy had the roman empire, france will never best that.

Sure, no ones knows Napoleon...

France is made fun of its military because it is true. Agincourt anyone


Brief History of France at War
I posted this before.

That's not humorous anymore. Jokes about French surrendering are funny, but this list is wrong.

If France sucked so much, it would not exist anymore. The Ottoman Empire has disappeared, the Hapsburg Empire has disappeared, Greece, which once extended from Crimea to Pakistan, has lost most of its territory...but France still exists and is still one of the 3 most powerful European countries, with UK and Germany.

If France sucked so much, maybe it would not have been such a threat to its neighboring countries during centuries. Maybe they would not have invaded Great Britain. Maybe 40% of the English vocabulary would not come from French. Maybe Louisiana would not have been called after a French King. Maybe Maine would not have been named after a French department. Maybe Canadian and African (in most of West Africa) people would not speak French.

I love jokes about French surrendering. I don't like French people that much. But making lists over "all the war that they have lost" is totally sick and does not reflect reality.

- How do you recognize a Belgian in a submarine? It's the one with a parachute

- Who has invented the first submarine? The Belgians, while trying to build an aircraft carrier

- An helicopter of the Belgian army has crashed onto a cemetery. The rescuers have already found the bodies of 500 victims.

- Just before Luxemburg's national day, the Luxemburger Prime Ministers calls the Belgian King.
"Tomorrow, there will be the parade, and we don't have any tank. Could you lend us yours?"
"Of course? How many do you need? One?"
"No, we would need more, it will be a great parade!"
"OK, so we lend you all of our 3 tanks"

 

[Panache]

Go to Google and type in "French Military Victories." Then hit "I'm feeling lucky." See what you find.

 

[Redfactor]

Go to Google and type in "French Military Victories." Then hit "I'm feeling lucky." See what you find.

Hehe, too funny.

 

[partier9]

Sure, no ones knows Napoleon...

how long did his empire last?

That's not humorous anymore. Jokes about French surrendering are funny, but this list is wrong.

If France sucked so much, it would not exist anymore. The Ottoman Empire has disappeared, the Hapsburg Empire has disappeared, Greece, which once extended from Crimea to Pakistan, has lost most of its territory...but France still exists and is still one of the 3 most powerful European countries, with UK and Germany.

If France sucked so much, maybe it would not have been such a threat to its neighboring countries during centuries. Maybe they would not have invaded Great Britain. Maybe 40% of the English vocabulary would not come from French. Maybe Louisiana would not have been called after a French King. Maybe Maine would not have been named after a French department. Maybe Canadian and African (in most of West Africa) people would not speak French.

I love jokes about French surrendering. I don't like French people that much. But making lists over "all the war that they have lost" is totally sick and does not reflect reality.

- How do you recognize a Belgian in a submarine? It's the one with a parachute

- Who has invented the first submarine? The Belgians, while trying to build an aircraft carrier

- An helicopter of the Belgian army has crashed onto a cemetery. The rescuers have already found the bodies of 500 victims.

- Just before Luxemburg's national day, the Luxemburger Prime Ministers calls the Belgian King.
"Tomorrow, there will be the parade, and we don't have any tank. Could you lend us yours?"
"Of course? How many do you need? One?"
"No, we would need more, it will be a great parade!"
"OK, so we lend you all of our 3 tanks

it was a joke, and i know it is unaccurate thats why i posted it. :mrgreen:

 

[Slainte]

Seriously though, people who think the French are weak generally don't know history. Historically the French were always the largest and most powerful homogeneous group in Europe. They had about a quarter of Europes population up untill 1800 I think. That's why we had the concert of Europe and basically started international alliances, without all the other European countries helping each other the French would have destroyed us.

Okay I did a little online reasearch and I'm way wrong with the bolded stat, they were still the biggest country in Europe but had nothing like a quarter of the population. They had a quarter of the population of Europe in the middle ages though.

They were still way more powerful than anyone else in 1800 too.

 

[Iriemon]

FOR SALE: WWII french rifles. Perfect condition. Never fired. Only dropped once.

:mrgreen:

Italian versions. I heard them when I was a kid.


For you World War 2 fans, here are some Italian war jokes submitted by Jim Paterson:

7A.The new Italian warships have half of the portholes below the waterline. That way the new Italian Navy gets a good look at the old Italian Navy.

7B. Italy goes to war like the Brits go to the Olympics: it's not the winning that counts, it's the taking part.

7C. Did you hear about the sale of Italian rifles?
Never been used and only dropped once.

7D. U.S.A. ships are titled USS for United States Ship. United Kingdom Ships are titled HMS for Her/His Majesty's Ship. Italian Ships are AMS
"Clean Jokes"

Though this site missed the all time classic Italian joke about their tanks having 5 gears; 1 forward and 4 reverse.

 

[Zyphlin]

Q: Why was a Frenchman with a white flag running behind the Italian?
A :The Frenchman was trying to surrender, but the Italian kept retreating.

:mrgreen:

HAHAHA, wonderful, I've not heard that one before.