robin said:However since you pressumably believe "Life is Pain, Pain is Knowledge, Knowledge is Life " then perhaps you believe their suffering will serve some purpose.
robin said:I assume you are a sado masochist then.
Hornburger said:A ruling would protect the fetus because people tend to be law-abiding, trying to avoid the punishment and consequences. If laws didn't work, then we wouldn't have them for murder, theft, fraud, etc etc.
The only people that "the law" stops are fearful people. If the goal is to promote a fearful society, then follow that logic.
There was a quote, can't remember who coined it, to the effect of : "A person who chooses to not to act because the law would impose consequences, is not choosing out of virtue rather because they are fearful."
Fearful societies are become enslaved, and forget how to live.
Furthermore, the law is was too abundant as it is (in general, not limitied to this particular issue). Law is generally contructed nowadays to control and limit people (sometimes for good, often for ill), rather than be a means of arbitrating and adminitering JUSTICE.
There is soo much law that tells us what we can not do, people might as well not act at all.
When the law, which is supposed to be the mechanism of Justice, is the major source of injustice, how can a society survive?
(Remember, the icon of Justice is the Blind-folded godess Themis with the sclaes in her raised hand and a sword in the lowered hand. Scales represent balance.
A wrong made right. The sword is used when Justice (Themis) is refused, and Nemesis would bring just retribution.)
Basically all true. Whether it's legal or not it's still going occur in large numbers and the Gov. wont be able to regulate it.Tashah said:The act of abortion has been utilized since antiquity and will remain that way regardless of its legal status. I am pro-choice, but I also appreciate the wisdom and necessity of imposing certain legal requirements on underage females. As an aside, it should also be mentioned that different cultures and religions vary in their interpretation of when new life becomes a reality.
My experience of pain, whether physical or emotional, is that it's something I wish to experience as little of as possible. The only good to come from it is to make one more aware of & empathise with others in pain & minimise their pain if one is able to.tecoyah said:Pain is Knowledge: I have found that thru an understanding of these hardships, and a willingness to learn from mistakes/difficulties, we can gain much as people.
libertarian_knight said:Knowledge and understanding of pain, should create greater awareness and appricieation of pleasure. If you can know one, you can know the other. It's like that in any dualistic system.
of course, as far as life being painful, well of course, but not exclussively. Knowledge comes from knowing the whole thing, the totality and relationship between its parts. Pain is a necessary part of living, not the only part.
libertarian_knight said:The purpose of laws in society is to prevent people from harming and seriously interfering with the welfare of others. If you don't have such laws, you have anarchy, and that quite simply doesn't work out for the good of all. Yes, you can have too much law, which makes a tyranny, but you prevent that tyranny if you only have laws that help protect each individual's personal safety and promotes their happiness in general. You are a libretarian, which means you probably want the liberties of individual people protected. Laws help to protect such freedoms, but only if you have such laws in not an excess amount.Hornburger said:The only people that "the law" stops are fearful people. If the goal is to promote a fearful society, then follow that logic.
There was a quote, can't remember who coined it, to the effect of : "A person who chooses to not to act because the law would impose consequences, is not choosing out of virtue rather because they are fearful."
Fearful societies are become enslaved, and forget how to live.
Furthermore, the law is was too abundant as it is (in general, not limitied to this particular issue). Law is generally contructed nowadays to control and limit people (sometimes for good, often for ill), rather than be a means of arbitrating and adminitering JUSTICE.
There is soo much law that tells us what we can not do, people might as well not act at all.
When the law, which is supposed to be the mechanism of Justice, is the major source of injustice, how can a society survive?
(Remember, the icon of Justice is the Blind-folded godess Themis with the sclaes in her raised hand and a sword in the lowered hand. Scales represent balance.
A wrong made right. The sword is used when Justice (Themis) is refused, and Nemesis would bring just retribution.)
And the fact is the law would make reasonable people fearful if they did break the law. If I killed someone, I sure would be fearful that I will be locked away for life.
By the way, I do not think abortion is putting too much law onto a society...it's protecting a living person, in my opinion, one of the biggest roles of the state (to protect life).
Hornburger said:libertarian_knight said:The purpose of laws in society is to prevent people from harming and seriously interfering with the welfare of others. If you don't have such laws, you have anarchy, and that quite simply doesn't work out for the good of all. Yes, you can have too much law, which makes a tyranny, but you prevent that tyranny if you only have laws that help protect each individual's personal safety and promotes their happiness in general. You are a libretarian, which means you probably want the liberties of individual people protected. Laws help to protect such freedoms, but only if you have such laws in not an excess amount.
And the fact is the law would make reasonable people fearful if they did break the law. If I killed someone, I sure would be fearful that I will be locked away for life.
By the way, I do not think abortion is putting too much law onto a society...it's protecting a living person, in my opinion, one of the biggest roles of the state (to protect life).
Law rarely protect, at least crimminal justice laws. Some regulatory laws can, like don'[t throw Mercury in the rivers...(well we see how wells those work, how many lakes can't people eat the fish from now?)
Penal laws do not stop people from murdering, or stealing or raping. I mean if they did, why are prisons as full of violent crimminals as they are? Sure, for the fearful, they may put a dent in the crime rate by having them think over the getting-caught scenerio.
Reasonable people aren't fearful because reasonable people don't see a benefit to common crimes. Fearful people are the say "I shouldn't rape that girl, because I might go to jail" (which of course, when they think they CAN get away with it, they try.)
Reasonable people say "I shouldn't rape that girl." and when reasonable people think they can get away with it, they don't try.
As far as abortion law being too much, I qualified my statements noting I was not refering to it necessarily.
Also, throwing people is jail is not Justice. At best it might stop the bad guy from doing it again, at least for a little while, or just be smarter next time. If someone steals from me, and goes to jail, I probably will never get what was stolen back, and since I am a reasonable man, i'll have to pay taxes to support him. Twice the victim. Justice is about redressing a grievence, not sweeping the bad man under the rug along with some food, clothing, shelter and cable TV.
I guess though, an illusion of Justice is good enough.
An ancient chinese proverb states "The worst thing ever done for Justice, was to write down the law." I believe it. Even worse is letting lawyers define words.
Oh, one more thing, "one of the biggest roles of the state is to protect life"? 1) not according to the Supreme Court, and 2) people are still dying, with 2000+ years of governments. they suck
Trajan Octavian Titus said:First off according to the tenth amendment all powers not expressly granted to the federal government shall be left up to the individual state,
Second off according to the fourteenth amendment section 1 the government shall not deny anyone their life, liberty, or property with out due process.
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