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Where do you stand?

Where do you stand?

  • Abortion is Murder, and needs to be Illegal.

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • Current Law works just fine, in limiting Abortion.

    Votes: 9 40.9%
  • Abortion should be reserved for Rape/incest/Special circumstance.

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • Abortion should be Legal no matter what/When.

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • This should be left up to a popular Vote.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other....please post explanation.

    Votes: 6 27.3%

  • Total voters
    22

tecoyah

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Personally, I think abortion is killing, but not murder. I simply do not think its OK to remove freedoms from half the population because of my opinion......where do you Stand?
 

Tashah

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The act of abortion has been utilized since antiquity and will remain that way regardless of its legal status. I am pro-choice, but I also appreciate the wisdom and necessity of imposing certain legal requirements on underage females. As an aside, it should also be mentioned that different cultures and religions vary in their interpretation of when new life becomes a reality.



 

robin

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Abortion seems rather harsh when used as a late alternative to contraception.
However In some cases where a fetus is diagnosed with a serious congenital defect that may lead to a life of countless operations & pain & misery that may end prematurely anyway due to a fatal consequence of that defect, then one has to consider the suffering of that child & it's parents if it were to be born. However since you pressumably believe "Life is Pain, Pain is Knowledge, Knowledge is Life " then perhaps you believe their suffering will serve some purpose.
I'm not sure that's the case.
I'm more pragmatic & am in favour of minimising suffering. So I would say it's best to abort that fetus & try for another healthy baby instead.
Often that happens naturally anyway as many miscarriages are nature's way of rejecting deformed fetus's.
 

tecoyah

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robin said:
However since you pressumably believe "Life is Pain, Pain is Knowledge, Knowledge is Life " then perhaps you believe their suffering will serve some purpose.

Nope....this is my interpretation of Life....and, and the secret to happines...heh
 

Hornburger

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I believe that a fetus, in all stages, is a living human because after conception it is injected with DNA, a fundamental component of what makes a human human. Just because something isn't developed (like not having thoughts, feelings, etc., or being more than a clump of cells) doesn't mean it isn't alive; it just means it's not developed yet.

Therefore, I believe that the fetus needs to be protected.

A ruling would protect the fetus because people tend to be law-abiding, trying to avoid the punishment and consequences. If laws didn't work, then we wouldn't have them for murder, theft, fraud, etc etc.

However, abortion should be allowed in special cases, like when the mother's health is in danger and when rape or incest is involved. For rape and incest, the mother never chose to have the baby; when the mother's health is in danger, the mother never knew that by having the baby she would die. And I think that a rape trial could be speeded up, to my knowledge. I know a criminal defense lawyer who does trials usually in 2 weeks. But such rape/incest cases resulting in pregnancy are rare, in any case.

So, I think that abortion should be illegal because it is the killing of a human being, in my opinion, and that a law prohibiting abortion would lower the high amount of abortions taking place in this country.
 

robin

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tecoyah said:
Nope....this is my interpretation of Life....and, and the secret to happines...heh
I assume you are a sado masochist then.
 
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libertarian_knight

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abortion should be legal, and no one should ever get one. of course, that'll only happen in an imaginary world, but you should get the idea. please don't bother telling me in what circumstance it would be necessary i know.
 

tecoyah

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robin said:
I assume you are a sado masochist then.
Actually, I am a realist

Life is Pain: Inevitably...there will be hardships, and difficult times we must deal with, It's a fact of Life.

Pain is Knowledge: I have found that thru an understanding of these hardships, and a willingness to learn from mistakes/difficulties, we can gain much as people.

Knowledge is Life: As I do not accept the underlying premise of most religions (Heaven /Hell...whatever) I have developed my own reasoning for existance, To Become More. In this way I have purpose, and by truly believing the above Mantra, I find contentment in the grind we call life. Masochist....definately not. I do not seek pain....but as it is not avoidable, why fight it with denial, and lose such small benefit that it may hold.
 

libertarian_knight

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Hornburger said:
A ruling would protect the fetus because people tend to be law-abiding, trying to avoid the punishment and consequences. If laws didn't work, then we wouldn't have them for murder, theft, fraud, etc etc.

The only people that "the law" stops are fearful people. If the goal is to promote a fearful society, then follow that logic.

There was a quote, can't remember who coined it, to the effect of : "A person who chooses to not to act because the law would impose consequences, is not choosing out of virtue rather because they are fearful."

Fearful societies are become enslaved, and forget how to live.

Furthermore, the law is was too abundant as it is (in general, not limitied to this particular issue). Law is generally contructed nowadays to control and limit people (sometimes for good, often for ill), rather than be a means of arbitrating and adminitering JUSTICE.

There is soo much law that tells us what we can not do, people might as well not act at all.

When the law, which is supposed to be the mechanism of Justice, is the major source of injustice, how can a society survive?

(Remember, the icon of Justice is the Blind-folded godess Themis with the sclaes in her raised hand and a sword in the lowered hand. Scales represent balance.
A wrong made right. The sword is used when Justice (Themis) is refused, and Nemesis would bring just retribution.)
 

Connecticutter

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Don't you think that the popular vote option is a little superfluous. It then leaves the question, "how would you vote?"
 

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Tashah said:
The act of abortion has been utilized since antiquity and will remain that way regardless of its legal status. I am pro-choice, but I also appreciate the wisdom and necessity of imposing certain legal requirements on underage females. As an aside, it should also be mentioned that different cultures and religions vary in their interpretation of when new life becomes a reality.



Basically all true. Whether it's legal or not it's still going occur in large numbers and the Gov. wont be able to regulate it.
 

robin

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tecoyah said:
Pain is Knowledge: I have found that thru an understanding of these hardships, and a willingness to learn from mistakes/difficulties, we can gain much as people.
My experience of pain, whether physical or emotional, is that it's something I wish to experience as little of as possible. The only good to come from it is to make one more aware of & empathise with others in pain & minimise their pain if one is able to.
 

libertarian_knight

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Knowledge and understanding of pain, should create greater awareness and appricieation of pleasure. If you can know one, you can know the other. It's like that in any dualistic system.

of course, as far as life being painful, well of course, but not exclussively. Knowledge comes from knowing the whole thing, the totality and relationship between its parts. Pain is a necessary part of living, not the only part.
 

tecoyah

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libertarian_knight said:
Knowledge and understanding of pain, should create greater awareness and appricieation of pleasure. If you can know one, you can know the other. It's like that in any dualistic system.

of course, as far as life being painful, well of course, but not exclussively. Knowledge comes from knowing the whole thing, the totality and relationship between its parts. Pain is a necessary part of living, not the only part.

Fully agree....just thought this goes without saying.
 

TurtleDude

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It should be a state issue, not something changed by Supreme Court Fiat
 

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libertarian_knight said:
Hornburger said:
The only people that "the law" stops are fearful people. If the goal is to promote a fearful society, then follow that logic.

There was a quote, can't remember who coined it, to the effect of : "A person who chooses to not to act because the law would impose consequences, is not choosing out of virtue rather because they are fearful."

Fearful societies are become enslaved, and forget how to live.

Furthermore, the law is was too abundant as it is (in general, not limitied to this particular issue). Law is generally contructed nowadays to control and limit people (sometimes for good, often for ill), rather than be a means of arbitrating and adminitering JUSTICE.

There is soo much law that tells us what we can not do, people might as well not act at all.

When the law, which is supposed to be the mechanism of Justice, is the major source of injustice, how can a society survive?

(Remember, the icon of Justice is the Blind-folded godess Themis with the sclaes in her raised hand and a sword in the lowered hand. Scales represent balance.
A wrong made right. The sword is used when Justice (Themis) is refused, and Nemesis would bring just retribution.)
The purpose of laws in society is to prevent people from harming and seriously interfering with the welfare of others. If you don't have such laws, you have anarchy, and that quite simply doesn't work out for the good of all. Yes, you can have too much law, which makes a tyranny, but you prevent that tyranny if you only have laws that help protect each individual's personal safety and promotes their happiness in general. You are a libretarian, which means you probably want the liberties of individual people protected. Laws help to protect such freedoms, but only if you have such laws in not an excess amount.

And the fact is the law would make reasonable people fearful if they did break the law. If I killed someone, I sure would be fearful that I will be locked away for life.

By the way, I do not think abortion is putting too much law onto a society...it's protecting a living person, in my opinion, one of the biggest roles of the state (to protect life).
 
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Scarecrow Akhbar

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I marked "other", not that abortion isn't murder, but because, in the United States, at least, it's debated in the wrong arena. It's a state issue, not a federal issue.

As for the "gee the deformed baby won't live a nice life, let's kill it" stance of some, have they posted a guard on Steven Hawking to make sure no one pushes his wheel chair out into traffic?

I recommend all Jewish babies be screened for Tae Sachs and all positive fetuses be immediately euthanized.
 

libertarian_knight

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Hornburger said:
libertarian_knight said:
The purpose of laws in society is to prevent people from harming and seriously interfering with the welfare of others. If you don't have such laws, you have anarchy, and that quite simply doesn't work out for the good of all. Yes, you can have too much law, which makes a tyranny, but you prevent that tyranny if you only have laws that help protect each individual's personal safety and promotes their happiness in general. You are a libretarian, which means you probably want the liberties of individual people protected. Laws help to protect such freedoms, but only if you have such laws in not an excess amount.

And the fact is the law would make reasonable people fearful if they did break the law. If I killed someone, I sure would be fearful that I will be locked away for life.

By the way, I do not think abortion is putting too much law onto a society...it's protecting a living person, in my opinion, one of the biggest roles of the state (to protect life).
Law rarely protect, at least crimminal justice laws. Some regulatory laws can, like don'[t throw Mercury in the rivers...(well we see how wells those work, how many lakes can't people eat the fish from now?)

Penal laws do not stop people from murdering, or stealing or raping. I mean if they did, why are prisons as full of violent crimminals as they are? Sure, for the fearful, they may put a dent in the crime rate by having them think over the getting-caught scenerio.

Reasonable people aren't fearful because reasonable people don't see a benefit to common crimes. Fearful people are the say "I shouldn't rape that girl, because I might go to jail" (which of course, when they think they CAN get away with it, they try.)

Reasonable people say "I shouldn't rape that girl." and when reasonable people think they can get away with it, they don't try.

As far as abortion law being too much, I qualified my statements noting I was not refering to it necessarily.

Also, throwing people is jail is not Justice. At best it might stop the bad guy from doing it again, at least for a little while, or just be smarter next time. If someone steals from me, and goes to jail, I probably will never get what was stolen back, and since I am a reasonable man, i'll have to pay taxes to support him. Twice the victim. Justice is about redressing a grievence, not sweeping the bad man under the rug along with some food, clothing, shelter and cable TV.

I guess though, an illusion of Justice is good enough.

An ancient chinese proverb states "The worst thing ever done for Justice, was to write down the law." I believe it. Even worse is letting lawyers define words.

Oh, one more thing, "one of the biggest roles of the state is to protect life"? 1) not according to the Supreme Court, and 2) people are still dying, with 2000+ years of governments. they suck
 

aps

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I chose "other." There was no answer allowing me to state that I believe that abortion should be legal but that there should be more limitations than are currently in effect. I also think that educating people on the responsibility of having sex (using protection, adoption, etc.) should be mandatory.
 
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First off according to the tenth amendment all powers not expressly granted to the federal government shall be left up to the individual state,

Second off according to the fourteenth amendment section 1 the government shall not deny anyone their life, liberty, or property with out due process.
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
First off according to the tenth amendment all powers not expressly granted to the federal government shall be left up to the individual state,

Second off according to the fourteenth amendment section 1 the government shall not deny anyone their life, liberty, or property with out due process.
I am in the 'other' (states rights) category on this one.

Many of the pro-abortion crowd do not want the people to have a vote on this issue, however. Their whole argument comes on two fronts: a) whether the embryo/fetus is actually a human being--many say it is not; and b) the right of the woman to have control over her body. Thus they favor the current law that says a woman can have an abortion at any time even as the baby is emerging from the womb.

The pro-life crowd hinges their whole argument on the same fronts: a) the embryo/fetus/baby within the womb is a developing human being and thus is deserving of all the protections we can provide to any human being; and b) women should have complete choice whether they will risk pregnancy, but once they make the choice to take the risk, they are as responsible for a new life created as much as they are responsible for the child that is born. Thus, they wish the laws amended to reflect their point of view.

And then there are the gray areas. We now have capability at a very early stage to determine whether a baby will likely be born healthy or will have serious physical or mental problems. Before there is any brain activity, is it merciful to not require a severely defective child to develop and be born? In cases of rape or incest, few pro lifers opt to make a moral decision for women faced with decisions in such cases. The life and health of the mother must also be a serious consideration.

Personally I think killing a healthy developing baby purely for the convenience of the mother is wrong and should not be an option. Unfortunately, there is insufficient consensus on this to make a blanket law without creating additional problems. But there is certainly room for individual states or communities to have the option of what moral values they will enforce in their own realm.
 
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