• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

When Does Mass Killing Become Genocide?

Evilroddy

Pragmatic, pugilistic, prancing, porcine politico.
DP Veteran
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
11,315
Reaction score
9,306
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
The legal term “genocide” has been defined as certain acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. Intent (dolus specialis) is the key to differentiating mass killing from Genocide. Genocide is an international crime, according to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948). The acts that constitute genocide fall into five categories but not all acts have to be undertaken to qualify mass killing as Genocide.:

  • Killing members of the group.
  • Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part.
  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.
  • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
The above mentioned convention established the crime of genocide as an international crime. The obligation to prevent and punish is binding on all states, even those that have not ratified the convention. Preventing and punishing genocide remains a pair of ongoing challenges that states, institutions, and individuals continue to face but to date have not been able to nail down.

So have states like Russia, Rwanda, Sudan, South Sudan, Myanmar, China, ISIL in Syria and Iraq, the USA and Canada committed Genocide. Is the State of Israel in the process of committing genocide. In the case of Canada in the 19th and first 3/4s of the 20th centuries the answer is yes. The Indian Act of 1876 and plenty of archived Government of Canada and provincial government documents prove intent and thus meet the test of 'dolus specialis'.

Since this topic is most certainly going to include discussion of the Palestine-Israeli conflict and the present day Gaza War I have chosen to place it here rather than in the academic section of the forum.

Why is this discussion important now? See the links below for a lack of information:




While there are still sources on the web which cover the topic, the number of disabled links is striking.


Please be respectful but honest in your discussion in this discussion.

Be well, be safe and please don't try to derail this serious discussion.
Evilroddy.
 
SNOWFLAKE said:
It's genocide when done by people I dislike but justified defense if it's done by people I support.
Click to expand...
Snowflake:

While there is certainly an element of truth to that it does not really clarify the question at hand.

Be well and be safe.
Evilroddy.
 


The highlighted is the only one that constitutes genocide to me
 
Try some of this from Israeli sources:

The Times of Israel

News from Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World
www.timesofisrael.com

Haaretz | Israel News, the Middle East and the Jewish World - Haaretz.com

Haaretz.com - Breaking News, Analysis and Opinion From Israel, the Middle East and the Jewish World - Haaretz
www.haaretz.com

Here’s some good holocaust material from Miriam Adelson’s source.

Israel news | Israel Hayom - www.israelhayom.com

embedStory('israel-hayom/2AUc6mrAf', {domain: 'https://storycards.co/israel-hayom/2AUc6mrAf/'}))()" data-id="israel-hayom/2AUc6mrAf" async>
www.israelhayom.com

This one is quite complete:

The Jerusalem Post - All News from the Middle East, Israel, and the Jewish World

The Jerusalem Post is Israel's most-read English news website and best-selling English newspaper bringing breaking news, world news & middle east news.
www.jpost.com
 
Evilroddy said:
Snowflake:

While there is certainly an element of truth to that it does not really clarify the question at hand.

Be well and be safe.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...
It clarifies in that is exactly how people think.
 
Intention is required. The damage done to a population has to have been deliberate with the intention of committing genocide. Even if your direct actions result in the death of an entire population, that doesn't necessarily make your actions genocide.

For instance: If you irresponsibly visit an uncontacted tribe of people, spread a dormant virus you didn't even know you had, and inadvertently wipe out the entire tribe, then you are guilty of criminal negligence that has resulted in a great humanitarian tragedy, but you are not a war criminal and you are not guilty of committing genocide even though your direct actions objectively resulted in the deaths of every single member of the population.
 
Juin said:
The highlighted is the only one that constitutes genocide to me
Click to expand...
Juin:

So directly killing a targeted population is not considered a genocidal act according to your mindset? I guess the Einsatzgruppen which followed the German and other Axis armies into the Soviet Union in 1941 and killed millions of Jews, Gypsies and Slavs by shooting them or gassing them in vans and trucks are off the hook according to you? Point one is the most clear example of genocide.

Be well and be safe.
Evilroddy.
 



To each his own. Notice that missing is Russians in your list. They are animals whose deaths by the tens of millions don't move your radar
 
Juin said:
To each his own. Notice that missing is Russians in your list. They are animals whose deaths by the tens of millions don't move your radar
Click to expand...
Russians are Eastern Slavs along with Byelorussians and Ukrainians. So Slavs covers the Soviet Union's Slavic populations (not Cossacks or Siberians or Tartars however).

be well and be safe.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Russians are Eastern Slavs along with Byelorussians and Ukrainians. So Slavs covers the Soviet Union's Slavic populations (not Cossacks or Siberians or Tartars however).

be well and be safe.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...




Russians do not count in your book
 
@Juin:

Russians are Slavs. Why is that not getting through to you? 24-25 million Russian Slavs died during the Great Patriotic War from violence, disease or privation. The real number is probably significantly larger as the Stalin Regime suppressed the reporting and recording of such total deaths for reasons of Soviet morale/pride.

However excluding the systematic, direct killing of a targeted population from a genocidal determination is just daft. Somewhere between 1.5 to 2 million Jews, Gypsies and Slavs were killed by Einsatzgruppen using bullets or modified trucks as mobile gas chambers. That was an important component of the whole brutal and genocidal campaign waged against these groups which took the lives of about 10.5 million human beings. About 6 million of these were innocent Jews who were singled out for intentional liquidation by the evil Nazi German Regime. Ghetto after ghetto is conquered Russian city was brutally emptied of civilian Jews who were killed in short order after the Nazi conquests. of Soviet cities and towns. It was methodical and deliberate mass killing targeted at Jews and was thus genocide. Millions of more Russian Slavs died as prisoners of war after being captured by the Axis forces.

Be well and be safe.
Evilroddy.
 
This is the State of Israel's Law to prevent and punish Genocide.


It is worth a read.

Then read this report and check its assertions yourself:


Self defence is not a legitimate defence against the charge of Genocide under Israeli law.

The examine this 18 month old document detailing intent and follow that up with a search for more recent utterances - most notably accusations against the State of Israel by former directors of Shin Bet and Mossad/ .


Taken in its totality it a pretty clear case that the State of Israel is committing Genocide in Gaza and the West Bank including East Jerusalem.

Given recent reports that the US is promoting the idea that Palestinians should be moved to war torn and aid-starved South Sudan, there is a plausible case that the US Administration is now complicit under Israeli law of genocide too.

Be well and be safe.
Evilroddy
 
People being offered to voluntarily move to South Sudan (or elsewhere) is not a genocide.
Genocide usually involves the intended mass killing of a large amount of people of a specific population. Israel only intends to cause harm at all to the terrorists and employs many methods to minimize the harm done to others.
Even if 100,000 Gazans out of 2+ million will take that offer, which is highly unlikely, it will still not be genocide. Even if all the 2+ million would - it's not genocide.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Thank you for clearly stating the policy of the United States!

Like ho bombing Cambodia was for their own good.
Click to expand...
I was speaking generally but if you want to focus on the US, well, ok.
 
Apocalypse:

From the Israeli law:


...

So there is more to genocide than simply wiping people out by direct violence according to Israeli law.

Be well and be safe.
Evilroddy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…