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What's causing crime these days?

NatMorton

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This started as a reply in an active crime rate thread, but I think it deserves its own OP.

First, let us agree there is a clear correlation between poverty and crime, and one would need to have their head in the sand not to see it. That said, I don't think the causation relationship is always so clearly visible.

Intellectually speaking, it can be taking the easy way out to rely on the simple assertion that poverty creates need and that need is what drives crime. No one gets triggered when you say that. But social support programs have moved on from a couple of hundred years ago, and most of our thieves today do not limit themselves to loaves of bread.

By historical standards, the poor in America live quite well. Far from starvation, the number one nutritional issue facing America's poor is obesity (a condition that back in Jean Valjean's day was considered a sign of wealth). The vast majority of America's poor today have a roof over their heads, have central heating and air conditioning, and have modern, worksaving appliances. Poverty in the US is nothing like poverty seen in third-world countries or even in the novels of Dickens. Poor Americans are not starving to death, and a quick AI search tells me that on any given night fewer than 2% of America's poor are without shelter.

Which brings us to the uncomfortable part of the discussion. Does poverty always cause crime? Or does anti-social behavior create both poverty and crime? And if so, in 2025 America, which drives more crime, poverty or antisocial behavior?
 

OP doesn't mean crime. OP means lower income crimes. Let's get that clear here. A business that engages in wage theft is committing a crime. That's stealing hard working money from people. Accounting fraud is a crime. Embezzlement is a crime. Scamming is a crime. But these aren't the same kinds of crimes that the OP means. The OP means crimes like theft, homicide, drugs/drug use, etc.

The answer is pretty simple. Poverty. It's just poverty that drives people to make these decisions. But the OP doesn't seem to understand that, namely because the OP thinks that obesity and starvation are not linked together. We know people live in food deserts, where the number one food choice isn't healthy fruits and veggies. It's starches, it's corn syrup. This in turns fuels an obesity epidemic. It's why diabetes is prevalent in poor communities. But that's kinda getting to the point isn't it? The idea of who is poor and what they look like has radically changed in recent years. The OP needs to stop relying on stereotypes about poverty and looking at poor people as they are. Can they have appliances to help them? Yeah, because the society we set up doesn't give them the labor time to do what needs to be done otherwise. It's easier to heat up a meal in the microwave than it is to cook a proper meal. Instead of looking at appliances as proof of wealth, they're proof of not having enough time to do things like relax, or play with their kids.
 
Not sure what you're looking for. "Anti-social behavior" isn't defined.

To answer the question asked in the title, I looked at the local crime reports. Many to choose from. Drug sentencing. Stabbing. The casino shooter. This one is homicide.

Mom Arrested Months After She Says She Watched Husband Kick 5-Year-Old Daughter in Groin Before Her Death

The mother of a 5-year-old Nevada girl who died in April was charged with child abuse on Monday. Andrea Loving allegedly told police that she and her husband, Nicholas Loving, 35, discussed burying their daughter, Izabella Loving, in the backyard and fleeing the state. The Reno Gazette Journal...
www.crimeonline.com

The family lived in suburban Cold Springs. Middle-class, not poor.

Lots of things cause crime. Plenty of white-collar crime, as well as crime unrelated to class. Rich drug addicts don't need to steal. Poor ones do. What are you looking for?
 
Peer pressure.
 
People.
 
No, the OP definitely means crime, and of all kinds.
 
Michael Cole said:
Not sure what you're looking for. "Anti-social behavior" isn't defined.
Click to expand...
I'm looking for conversation, and as for a definition of anti-social behavior, I'm good with Copilot's:

 
There's a percentage of people with a compromised conscious coupled with unhealthy living environments which includes parenting or possibly lack of.

Crime Opportunity Theory?
 
Also, the causal relationship could go the other way: stupid person commits violent crime, goes to prison, wastes valuable time that could have been used to improve himself, and then has trouble finding gainful employment because of his felony conviction and is thus poor. So in this case, it wouldn't be poverty causing crime, but crime causing poverty.

Low property values (home ownership can be an important component of one's lifetime wealth) in high crime areas is another example of this.
 
Because you need more than loaves of bread to survive. You need money.

NatMorton said:
By historical standards, the poor in America live quite well.
Click to expand...
The conversation ends here. "Take your gruel and be happy" is just an alien position to people like us. Societal advancement is supposed to make things better for everyone. Someone working 70 hours a week just to barely make rent and never build any assets isn't better off because they have air conditioning and a television. It's still poverty. You're building a dystopia and don't care because you think you'll be towards the top. You won't be. They'll take yours too. You think someone like Elon Musk doesn't want more?

Raise your ****in standards.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
First off, your premise is faulty. It is not only poor who commit crimes.

Did poverty play an initial role in Bernie Madoff's schemes?

Was poverty a factor in George Santos' crimes?

John Gotti? Al Capone?

OJ Simpson?

Phil Spector?
Click to expand...
Donald Trump?
 
mrjurrs said:
Donald Trump?
Click to expand...
At the end of the day, the whole thing is a straw man. Nobody has ever argued crime is a binary. Nobody has ever argued poverty causes all crime, or that poor people will always be criminals. There are many factors.

Interestingly enough, one of the biggest crimefighting measures in human history, at least in terms of violent crime, may very well have been removing lead from gasoline.
 
NatMorton said:
I'm looking for conversation, and as for a definition of anti-social behavior, I'm good with Copilot's:
Click to expand...
Okay, that's a good start. For someone looking for conversation you avoided everything else I wrote.

You're apparently not looking for conversation.
 
NatMorton said:
Which brings us to the uncomfortable part of the discussion. Does poverty always cause crime? Or does anti-social behavior create both poverty and crime? And if so, in 2025 America, which drives more crime, poverty or antisocial behavior?
Click to expand...

It's clearly more complex than many people are willing to admit. We know for certain that crime is not solely a class or material issue because during the great depression, crime rates actually fell and these people were under far more duress materially than your worst neighborhoods in 2025.

Second, we know for certain that crime is influenced by population density. Appalachia is very poor, but crime is almost nonexistent. Appalachia also lacks access to most of the infrastructure which is available even to impoverished Urban populations, so we also know it isn't just a function of education or access to institutions.

Finally, there's the human element. This is by far the most controversial and the least likely people are willing to cede territory on. I've seen you blame culture, which is silly because culture is not developed in a vacuum. That leaves us with genetic explanations within and between populations, which no one wants to touch with a ten-foot pole

I tend to think it's a combination of geography, density, genetics, and child rearing - in particular the structural and down stream effects that even a single generation of shitty genes and poor parenting can have on future generations.
 
Are you speaking of white collar crime or are you simply diverting the conversation away from the big stuff in the news. Again.
 
NatMorton said:
I think it's fair to call that anti-social behavior, yes?
Click to expand...
You fail in this conversation. I selected a specific crime for your viewing. And you avoid it as well.

Looks like trolling.

Tell me, Nat. What caused these crimes?

Remaining defendants in Reno High Vandalism case appear in court

Four of seven remaining defendants in the Reno High Vandalism case appear in district court to enter pleas or ask for an attorney
www.kolotv.com

The crimes involved vandalism; swastikas and hate speech. Reno High serves downtown and southwest suburban. Middle and upper-middle class. Not poor.

Answer your own question.
 
The less you have to lose or conversely the more you have to lose could factor in your choices. If you have very little to lose you might be more willing to engage questionable behavior.
 
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