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galenrox said:Oh WHAT? Raising taxes will kill the economy? That is based on the assumption that your typical business owner doesn't know a ****ing thing about economics!!!
Raising taxes will not kill the economy, issuing so much debt that it becomes nearly impossible to finance a company due to interest rates will kill the ****ing economy. Or did you forget that the United States issues debt on the exact same ****ing market that businesses issue debt? Hmmm?
Where do you think money comes from? Do you think Bush has tapped into some magic money fairy who gives him a ****ing blank check every year? REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT HE TAXES FOR IT, HE'S STILL SPENDING OUR MONEY!
Now it is true, in certain circumstances deficit spending is good, since it can have the trickle down effect that you for some reason assume works all the ******* time, but once we reach the point when we're borrowing well over half of the money up to be borrowed in the ****ing world we've got a PROBLEM!
You know where the idea of unlimited deficit spending comes from? John Meynard Keynes, the flaming sissy ****** liberal economist that also led to the creation of such economic turds as the Philip's curve. If you were a conservative AT ALL you would understand that high taxes is a problem, but not NEARLY as big of a problem as unrestrained spending!
The debt will need to be paid off at some point, and thus at some point we will need a budget surplus, and it is plain and simple ****ing ridiculous that in the last election we had two dipshits arguing over who could cut the deficit in half in five years!! And the fact that you think that raising TAXES will kill business? NO, BUSH'S SPENDING will kill business. The weakness of the dollar and the decreasing amounts of faith in US Treasury Bonds will kill business.
I thought conservatives were about fiscal responsibility, but hell, I guess I'm not a conservative then.
As I said before, common-planning.There's that ambiguous equivocation again. "People" will decide things under your economic system, not the "government." They are one and the same in this context! How the hell will "people" decide ANYTHING if there's no forum to vote, with clearly defined rules?
As said before "From each according to his abilties, to each according to his needs." Your benifit will not equal .1% because of how many people there are, but on what you need.That's not how economics works. If Acme Technological Progress has 1,000 workers, then it's benefitting society a certain amount. Now if *I* join Acme Technological Progress too, the benefit to society (and therefore myself) will be only 0.1% greater. This doesn't even come close to the benefit to myself of having much more free time every day.
If it needs to be done, then it should be planned to do so practically. Not someone do everything, ALL do everything.You assume that someone will do everything just because it "needs" to be done.
Because it needs to be done.Why would anyone clean **** out of the sewers
Then you're talking about government. You can avoid that word all you want, but "devised locally, but also for larger areas if needed" shows EXACTLY what you're talking about.
Not working hard enough, this isn't capitalism where a worker is expected to work as hard as he can. In communism all must do what is needed if you've done your part, more shouldn't be expected from you.Right, because "the people" (but not government) will decide whether or not someone is working hard enough
That is quite possible, but adhering to what is needed, if one has filled his/her obligations to what is needed, no action is needed, if one does some but not all, some benifits will have been dropped, contribute less to society, and society will take less care of you. If one works not at all, everything will be virtually cut, but I personally would still have it be minimal needs, as in some food, water, clothing, housing to survive, but not necissarily a lot or good condition.Will there be some kind of rule to figure this out (but not a "law," of course) or will you have to assemble every single person in the community to vote on whether or not each person has contributed enough?
I would say Hong Kong in general is doing better than the rest of China.Compare Hong Kong to China proper.
I think you misunderstood, the US is the wealthiest country, also if you don't trade with it your economy has a habit of not being better off, but ther economy worsened with their largest trading partner having their country collapse(USSR). I consider myself anti-Free Trade, as it has a habit of taking large amount of goods out of poorer countries and only recieves minimal benifits.So you're pro-free-trade? Certainly odd for a communist.
Yes, but if all are almost as equally poor, that means the wealth in the country is distributed more evenly, and will in general be wealthier than a poor citizen in another country, but that depends on how much wealth is in the country.Yes, everyone is about equally poor.
I could name a few that were more repressive. Pinochet was noted to be quite repressive as a few more right and left winged dictatorships. But some are even worser in other parts of the world.You're joking right? Cuba is hands-down the most repressive government in the Western Hemisphere. Period.
Not entirly, the reason the US blockaded Cuba was because of some USSR missiles there, that the USSR forced upon Cuba.Irrelevant.
well, you should remember that W. Europe was already richer than E. Europe before the Iron Curtain so there is already a lagging behind, but it also depeds on how you look at it. The USSR wages were generally lower, but actually not a lot, than the US and W. Europe. But the state there was pumping out more benifits, as in medical care, the amount of time to work to buy needs were also lower, but luxuries were far higher, as the USSR decided prices and always had needs, as in food, water, housing, etc. were lower than that in the US. During the USSR's most high-time economy, I believe the figures was that an ave. airplane ticket from Vladivostok to Kiev was $15, an ave. apartment rent in Moscow was $5 and that includes 6-month free heating.Compare the standard of living in capitalist Western Europe with the standard of living in communist Eastern Europe. This should be a strong indication of which system produced more poverty.
Poverty has increaed, mortality rates have increased, crime has increased, the KGB transformed into the mafia, ave. lifespan has dropped around 20 yrs. for males. Emigration increased,(of course there was little to speak of before, but I mean emigration is booming). All wealth is centered around Moscow. Must have missed the part where the economy was doing great.Now fast forward twenty years. Eastern Europe is among the most free-market-oriented regions of the world, and its economy is booming.
You're assuming there's a job to find.No. I'd stop being a victim, not blame the government, and find another job.
Its not so easy, many employers wouldn't employ you, so you would have to beg. You live you're life doing that very little to look forward to, not knowing if you'll live the next few days, etc. etc.Then I'd get some income.
With more people, there are more curious minds, and therefore more thing sto be invented, though I do admit capitalism can be attributed to some things.And it took thousands of years for technology to invent just those things. Compare that with capitalist countries today, where there are millions of things invented every year.
Explain.Actually it was.
It is debatable whether it was invented in a country run by communists. But also if most of the technology was solen by capitalist countries, why did they not beat the USSR? But some of it was. Also there was more things invented by the USSR, space station(Salyut), first man and woman(Yuri Gagarin and Valentina Tereshkova, 20 yrs. before first American woman).Literally the only thing invented by communists in their entire history...and even here, much of the know-how was stolen from capitalist countries.
Explain.Under capitalism, that's a very strong possibility. Under communism, it's almost impossible.
I never wrote that, though however private property is concentrated into a few percentages.No. One person doesn't own everything in the United States.
George_Washington said:What kind of conservative am I?
I think my views are very similiar to those of our first Secretary of Treasury, Alexander Hamilton, and the old Federalist Party. I favor capitalism, free enterprise, gun rights, military interventionalism, and personal responsibility. But unlike some conservatives and libertarians, I believe in having a socialist system to help the poor and the needy. I also believe in having federal funding of the arts and other things, to a certain extent.
galenrox said:lol, ****ing **** **** **** touche on that point!
I understand you're a lowly poli-sci major, and thus the economics they teach you is just about completely worthless, so I'll let it slide, but if we're gonna pay for this war we're gonna have to raise taxes. Issuing this much debt hurts the economy AT LEAST as much as raising taxes would. And plus, once the people start figuring out how much of their ACTUAL income Bush is spending (not just in the obvious tax dollars) the economy will collapse. Now if we just raise the taxes enough so the deception won't be so damn obvious, we could get out of this just fine.
But just a hint: Just because Tom Delay supports it doesn't make it conservative. The economics you're promoting is nearing Comrade Brian's as far as leftiness is concerned.
galenrox said:bull crap, all of the good that will come from the tax cuts has already come.
The reason tax cuts are effective is not because you have more money, it's just because for the time being you think you have more money. Eventually people figure out that they don't actually have as much money as they think they do, and if we're not being honest at the time, we're looking at the 70's all over again (the last time we had a republican using liberal economic policies!)
I've noticed that you're arguing against several things I never said. Clinton had to sign the spending bills, just as Bush has. Thus they are the gate keepers, and thus responsible for letting good and bad economic policies in. We should've gone with similar economic policies to Clinton's, and payed down the debt BEFORE the war, so thus it would be harder to build up the defecit (because we wouldn't be bogged down by interest payments), and thus this stuff you're talking about might've had a chance in hell.
But there have been benefits to the tax cuts, but now you guys are just getting greedy.
galenrox said:I think we both know that I'd win.
And just so you know, it's not really funny to poke fun at something that people have already been self-depreciating in the name of humor at. We had both already mocked that point, and thus you mocking it isn't funny.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:You can't believe in both capitalism, ie free people making free choices in a free market of goods and services, and believe in socialism.
You have to learn about the two and make a clear choice, else you're just fooling yourself and no one else.
Why should a man earning $20K a year pay to support a philharmonic orchestra only people with Ted Kennedy's money can afford to hear?
There's no better reason for the government to not pay for "art" than the argument that it can't survive in open competition on the free market with other art. If the general public doesn't think it's worth paying for, then they shouldn't be having their pocket picked to finance it via taxes.
George_Washington said:Why can't I be for capitalism but yet still see the benefits of having at least a limited socialist state in our society?
George_Washington said:How am I fooling myself?
George_Washington said:There are just certain things that I believe should be done, such as the government helping the poor. I don't think it's realistic just to rely on private charities and Churches to help them. I especially think we need public assistance for the disabled. You don't?
George_Washington said:I agree that we shouldn't fund art that the majority of people don't support. But I think we need to have museums and some public support of culture in our society.
galenrox said:We should've postponed the war, plain and simply. Now we're at the point where we can either continue to cut taxes and spend more and more on deficit, which will stifle business due to taking away businesses' ability to issue debt affordably, plus run the risk of this economic deception being found out by the masses (which ALWAYS happens eventually), leading to a complete economic collapse, OR we can raise taxes, stifle growth a tad (which will happen anyways, due to the spending, not the taxation), and pay for what the government is buying.
galenrox said:We should've postponed the war, plain and simply. Now we're at the point where we can either continue to cut taxes and spend more and more on deficit, which will stifle business due to taking away businesses' ability to issue debt affordably, plus run the risk of this economic deception being found out by the masses (which ALWAYS happens eventually), leading to a complete economic collapse, OR we can raise taxes, stifle growth a tad (which will happen anyways, due to the spending, not the taxation), and pay for what the government is buying.
galenrox said:I get the point, but as you know in business we keep these things to generate revenue, so if we sell them now, that means we won't be able to sell them again when we're in a worse economic situation.
galenrox said:I'm not saying to cut out all defecit spending, but we're in war, we need to raise taxes.
galenrox said:Business is already being as stifled as it's gonna get by the amount of debt we are issuing, raising taxes won't change that (since although they'll have less capital, they can issue debt at a lower cost, which in the end will save them money).
galenrox said:Right now we've got a bull market going, and barring raising corporate tax to like 70% that's not gonna change. Most investors don't make enough money to get anything from the current tax cuts anyways, at least anything of note.
galenrox said:I'm all about privatizing this stuff, but I think we should keep it around until a time when we need the money more than now, because once it's gone it's gone.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Because if your for both black and white, you wind up with dingy grey underwear.
We currently live in a socialist country because of this basic incompatibility.
You're part of the public. You go ahead and pay all you think you can afford to help the helpless. I'll do the same thing. That's called "freedom".
Having some gangster decide how much I should spend to that purpose destroys my freedom. That's more important than anything else. Why do you think it's acceptable to use goons to take money from me and others to finance your visions of public paradise?
Why is welfare for bad artists different than welfare for bad workers?
George_Washington said:Maybe I just see that there are valuable aspects of both economic systems.
George_Washington said:That's debatable. Just because we have entitlements doesn't mean we are completely socialist.
George_Washington said:There are no countries who are completely one way.
George_Washington said:I've heard this libertarian propaganda before. I don't think we need to go to the extreme and dismantle everything. I think history proves that a system like that wouldn't work. Look at the problems we had in the south. The states tried to argue it was their right to own slaves and later on, they tried to argue that it was their right to segregate people.
George_Washington said:What you fail to understand is that everyone has a boss.
George_Washington said:In order to have civilization, not just complete anarchy where people just rip each other off and chaos goes on, taxes and government are a neccessary aspect of life. The government, "goons" you speak of would turn into private goons if left to your ideal. Freedom is good but an economic and government system should still be tempered with wisdom. A state of unrestricted, "individuals" just doing whatever they wanted would be determental to the rights of law abiding citizens.
George_Washington said:Well, when I mentioned the arts I was mostly referring to public funding of museums and such.
George_Washington said:I wouldn't be for special welfare for artists that the rest of us don't get. I'm not saying we should hand out welfare to bad workers as in people who are just lazy. I mean we should help people that are legitimately made poor. Such as, you know, people who have serious medical injuries who can't afford to pay their bills, the physical and mentally disabled, etc. I think if you're in a wheel chair, for example, the government should provide assistance to you. How can we realistically rely on private charities for this?
Deegan said:Neo-Con, and proud of it, much like Alexander was in his day, save the homosexual tendencies.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:There to aspects to consider. One recognizes the individual's ownership of his own life, the other assumes the individual's life is owed to others.
The two are not compatible and one is not moral.
You either are a virgin, or you ain't. But you can still catch HIV via oral ingestion.
No. There are no countries that are completely capitalist. True freedom has never been tried in the history of mankind. Always always the busy-body do-gooder and the tyrant work hand in hand to bother, annoy, harass, and enslave the man that want's to be left alone to tend his own business and live his own life.
This fact in no way justifies the actions of the do-body busy-gooder.
Right. The southern states were arguing for slavery and/or jim crow against people seeking a libertarian solution. And now you're using that same argument...against a libertarian solution. What've you got against leaving people alone?
What you fail to understand is that no one is property. I understand the concept of "boss" from both ends. I was neither owned by my employer, nor did I own my employees. I never dictated how they should spend their money, nor have I ever obeyed employers telling me how I should spend mine.
Here we go yet once again with the anarchy BS. Why don't you go away and learn something about libertarianism before you foul public boards with your ignorance? Libertarians do not argue "anarchy". They argue "limited government".
Oh, like the museums that sponsored Serrano's (sp?) "**** Christ" or that thing in New York about Mary made out of elephant turds? Besides, art is a commodity and there's absolutely no reason why it shouldn't be traded on the open market like shoes, shirts, or Snoop Doggy Dog.
NOTE: I didn't know the board software drank pee. I'll have to remember that when posting.
galenrox said:Have I ever stated opposition to spending cuts?
Nice little strawman.
George_Washington said:I agree that people should own their own lives. But how exactly is having a welfare system depriving people of their own lives?
George_Washington said:Don't we all have a natural and moral duty to help each other? If you don't think so, please explain why. Please explain why, if you saw someone lying on the street bleeding to death, you would not help him.
George_Washington said:Uhhh I fail to see how this example really relates but it was kind of funny though.
George_Washington said:Ok, suppose we were strictly capitalist as you suggest. What would we do if a company imbezzled money, put out faulty products that kill people, or polluted the enviroment and killed millions of species? If there are not laws in place, what would we do in the case of Enron? Just like corporations get away with destroying people's lives? I fail to see the logic in that.
George_Washington said:Ok, so you think people have a right to own slaves. Is that what you're saying?
George_Washington said:But in order to preserve the state, taxes are inevitable. We need police, we need a military, etc. There are just some things an individual has to give up for the greater good.
George_Washington said:This world will never perfect. Because this world will never be perfect, it is silly of us to try to pretend that it will be if we just allow individuals to do whatever they want.
George_Washington said:Relax, dude. I'm trying to learn. That's the point of my coming on this forum. I agree that limited government is something that we need but just not to the extent that you're arguing. But explain to me again just how limited you think the government should be. Do you think we need any kind of public transportation?
George_Washington said:Yeah that might be true. But it's just then we risk it being destroyed, damaged, or otherwise unaccessible to the general public. Do you think the original copies of the Consitution or the Declaration of Independence should be sold or do you think they should be put on display for the entire public to view?
George_Washington said:lol Um, I'm not sure what you mean by this...but ok.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Alexander Hamilton? I believe your misinformed as to his free trade policy:
Alexander Hamilton had this to say on free trade: 'Not only the wealth, but the independence and security of a country, appear to be materially connected with the prosperity of manufactures. Every nation...ought to endeavor to posses within itself all the essentials of a national supply. These comprise the means of subsistence, habitation, clothing and defense.
Basically what Hamilton was saying is that the U.S. should be independent and self sustaining which is in direct contradiction to the neo-liberalist policies and creations of organizations such as NAFTA and CAFTA.
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