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What kind of dualist are you?

What kind of dualist are you?

  • Substance (Cartesian) Dualist

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Property Dualist

    Votes: 4 25.0%
  • Neither (explanation requested)

    Votes: 12 75.0%

  • Total voters
    16
Darth, where did I say that truth and logic would not exist after all thinking beings died? I said that it wouldn't make sense to talk about it existing then. You seem to struggle with some way to make sense of what it would mean to say that abstractions exist after nobody is left to think of them. It seems to me that love exists to the extent that there are people who love each other. In the same sense, truth exists to the extent that someone makes a claim about a real or imagined set of conditions. The question of existence implied that 'truth' was being construed as something that existed in the mind of a thinker. If no one is around to have a thought or feel affections, what sense does it make to ask whether truth exists any more than love exists?

I was just trying to get some clarification. I am not sure what people mean when they talk about truth or logic or whether they exist and in what sense. There’s a lot of ways to tackle those questions, right? Uncharacteristically of me, perhaps, but my post was not meant to be adversarial.


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In other words its subjective, not objective; merely of opinion to you?

Yet ever construct that you can think of originates in the material brain (according to modern science; ie knowledge).

No I wouldn't say that. There would be no way to test one person's views as more true than another's. Not sure I follow your second point, maybe you could elaborate further.
 
Science is an empirical process for the study of the physical universe that relies upon foundational presuppositions, which are beyond empirical verification (as I noted before)...

That depends on how one defines "empirical verification". To the extent that you can observe empirical processes, they are subject to empirical verification.

...Science can study the biology of brains and the biochemistry of brain activity under varying circumstances (brain injuries, etc.). So with that in mind what exactly is the difference between brain activity and mental activity? And what exactly is the means of testing that?...

That's easy. Brain activity is anything physical that the brain does, including systemic activity. Mental activity is an emergent property of the systemic activity that animals use to sense their environment and control their bodies. I am assuming that you know what emergence is in a system and that one should not confuse descriptions of a system's physical description with a high level description of emergent properties. If you need a refresher, I suggest looking at Conway's Game of Life, which provides a simple example of the difference between an underlying system and its emergent properties.

As for testing the relationship between brain activity and mental activity, there is a scientific literature on the subject. Nowadays, we can even take moving pictures of brain activity and associate it with simple mental activities such as doing calculations or making a decision.

...Also you mention the notion of thought, which in and of itself is not material or testable outside of studying brain activity and associations thereof. For example, when a person has a dream there are often images that are a part of that activity. As far as I know science cannot prove that those images actual were real but can just detect brain activity...

I'm not at all sure why you think that science cannot, in principle, tell us about the relationship between thought and brain activity. It is just a methodology for distinguishing between causal theories. If brain activity causes something, it can be studied scientifically.

Also let me make it clear my intent is not to debate the existence of God or other metaphysical notions. There will always come a point at which one's views on such matters cannot in any way be tested and verified as better than someone else'.

Noted, but it is also true that materialism is usually considered incompatible with belief in disembodied spirits. So substance dualism is normally taken to be a foundational presupposition for belief in gods and ghosts, which we typically think of as disembodied spirits or agents.
 
The goal of science is to test and quantify whatever it is that the scientist is studying. This is why there are fundamental units of measurement for such tasks:

≡ Units of Measurement List 2019: SI, US & Imperial Units

To quantify the phenomena the scientist is studying various equipment is used. Here for example is equipment used to study brain activity:

Top 3 Devices for Monitoring and Measuring Brain Activity - iMotions

They all are able to detect and quantify biological and biochemical phenomena. So when a person is hooked up to such equipment that is what is being studied by science. So when a person is thinking, the equipment is measuring the biological and biochemical processes involved with that activity. I’m no expert in this area of science but I would assume that these tests cannot detect exactly what the person is thinking. In other words, can it detect whether a person is thinking about eating an ice cream cone or about being at the beach? Another thing would be memories. Can “science” take the memories out of your physical brain that you have about things that happened in your life in the past and put them on a movie screen? There are other things that these types of tests cannot measure and quantify either. Here are some things (that I mentioned before): truth, laws of logic, mathematical notions, volition, and consciousness. In other words science has its limitations.

Look I would like to get back to the original question you raised in the OP and try to explain where (and why) I come down on this:

“they are what philosophers call "substance dualists" (aka Cartesian dualists) in that they believe in an immaterial spiritual plane of existence that is independent of physics. The major alternative to substance dualism is "property dualism"--the view that mental phenomena are not physical per se, but that mental/spiritual experience is a property of certain physical interactions. In modern terms, one might call it an emergent property”

For me the notion of an “emergent property” in this sense is meaningless. The notion of an emergent property that would be meaningful to me is something like radioactivity for example. Radioactivity is a measurable and quantifiable property of radioactive elements. The fact is that there are a number of things that we hold as “real” that are outside the purview of “science.” So that is why I would personally favor substance dualism. Nonetheless there is no method I can think of that one could prove that substance dualism is true and that property dualism is false in the same sense that I can prove that water has a density of approximately 1 gram per milliliter.
 
I was just trying to get some clarification. I am not sure what people mean when they talk about truth or logic or whether they exist and in what sense. There’s a lot of ways to tackle those questions, right? Uncharacteristically of me, perhaps, but my post was not meant to be adversarial.


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Your post were very good and raised valid points. The problems arise in any discussions involving foundational presuppositions and immaterial notions. In this arena there will always be limitations and inherent speculation on such matters. This area is very different than the chemist verifying the physical an chemical properties of substances.
 
The goal of science is to test and quantify whatever it is that the scientist is studying....

You seem to have mounted an argument from incredulity to dismiss the entire scientific field of neuropsychology, not to mention psychology itself. One can certainly design and execute experiments in which behavior can be measured on the basis of mental activity, including memories. There is a vast literature on the subject, but it is possible that you have never actually studied it formally. You don't need to be able to put memories on a movie screen, because they aren't really equivalent to moving pictures. You can represent brain activity on a movie screen and correlate it with controlled mental activity. That is exactly what a great many scientific studies have done already. Just as one example, consider the famous Libet experiments, which are often debated in discussions on the nature of free will. I could give you many others, but that one is a good example of how one goes about designing and conducting an experiment.

Look I would like to get back to the original question you raised in the OP and try to explain where (and why) I come down on this:

“they are what philosophers call "substance dualists" (aka Cartesian dualists) in that they believe in an immaterial spiritual plane of existence that is independent of physics. The major alternative to substance dualism is "property dualism"--the view that mental phenomena are not physical per se, but that mental/spiritual experience is a property of certain physical interactions. In modern terms, one might call it an emergent property”

For me the notion of an “emergent property” in this sense is meaningless. The notion of an emergent property that would be meaningful to me is something like radioactivity for example. Radioactivity is a measurable and quantifiable property of radioactive elements. The fact is that there are a number of things that we hold as “real” that are outside the purview of “science.” So that is why I would personally favor substance dualism. Nonetheless there is no method I can think of that one could prove that substance dualism is true and that property dualism is false in the same sense that I can prove that water has a density of approximately 1 gram per milliliter.

Radioactivity is a property of structured physical matter, just as mental activity is a property of structured physical matter. Based on what you have said here, I get the impression that you are unfamiliar with chaos theory and the nature of systemic emergence, but maybe we just have a different understanding of that subject. Simple emergence can be understood in terms of the components of a system to the extent that we know the initial conditions of that system and can break its activity down into component interactions. That's why a cellular automaton can be used to simulate emergence in a system of simple interactions. Reality itself, however, is vastly more complex than our simple models and recursively structured. That is, it consists of systems of systems. So you get different layers of emergence. It makes little sense to try to talk about emergent properties in terms of the properties of the components of a system. The properties of water molecules are very different from the properties of either hydrogen or oxygen, even though water molecules consist of those elements.

Anyway, I don't see how you go from a failure to imagine how mental activity can emerge from physical interactions to the belief that mental activity can exist independently of the physical activity it correlates with. It is hard to escape the observation that brains cause memories, emotions, calculations, consciousness, and bodily movements. Where do you leap from that observation to the claim that memories, emotions, and consciousness is likely to be a disembodied process?
 
First let me be clear that I am not dogmatic about any particular form of Dualism, so in that regard it is not something I have any compulsion to debate. Regarding the field of neuroscience I have no issue with what data they obtain from their experiments and have no interest in debating that either. When a person starts a thread I try to stay focused on the main reason for the thread and try not to go off on tangents. This thread was about they two different types of dualism and where people fall on that and possibly why to which I contributed my cursory view. Beyond that I don't have much more to contribute.

Regarding some of the issues you raised about why I view certain things the way I do has to do with my personal philosophical worldview, which largely is rejection of what I call atheistic naturalism - the view that all the exists is matter, energy and natural law. That rejection then forms the foundation of some of my other views. But then again this thread is about Dualism and not all possible worldviews and what proofs or disproofs there are in them.
 
First let me be clear that I am not dogmatic about any particular form of Dualism, so in that regard it is not something I have any compulsion to debate. Regarding the field of neuroscience I have no issue with what data they obtain from their experiments and have no interest in debating that either. When a person starts a thread I try to stay focused on the main reason for the thread and try not to go off on tangents. This thread was about they two different types of dualism and where people fall on that and possibly why to which I contributed my cursory view. Beyond that I don't have much more to contribute.

Regarding some of the issues you raised about why I view certain things the way I do has to do with my personal philosophical worldview, which largely is rejection of what I call atheistic naturalism - the view that all the exists is matter, energy and natural law. That rejection then forms the foundation of some of my other views. But then again this thread is about Dualism and not all possible worldviews and what proofs or disproofs there are in them.

Well, I did start this thread in a way that invited discussion and debate about dualism, but I do appreciate your efforts to give your perspective on the subject. I have not problem with your rejection of philosophical (atheistic?) naturalism, but I don't see how you can do that without rejecting one side of the dichotomy mentioned in the OP, i.e. property dualism. However, you only mentioned what you don't believe here without actually describing what you do believe. So I thought it reasonable to jump to the conclusion that you are a substance (Cartesian) dualist, unless you take some kind of third position. (The Stanford article gives a more nuanced description of dualism that allows for going beyond just the two positions.)
 
Well, I did start this thread in a way that invited discussion and debate about dualism, but I do appreciate your efforts to give your perspective on the subject. I have not problem with your rejection of philosophical (atheistic?) naturalism, but I don't see how you can do that without rejecting one side of the dichotomy mentioned in the OP, i.e. property dualism. However, you only mentioned what you don't believe here without actually describing what you do believe. So I thought it reasonable to jump to the conclusion that you are a substance (Cartesian) dualist, unless you take some kind of third position. (The Stanford article gives a more nuanced description of dualism that allows for going beyond just the two positions.)

When I discuss such matters I personally prefer the term "worldview." I don't consider dualism a worldview per say but more so a component of a worldview. Here is how I have personally reasoned through this. None of us have absolute knowledge or are omniscient (which includes neuroscientists :)) and hence formulate a philosophical view of the world based on various influences. There are (as far as I'm concerned) two dominant worldviews: Theism (personal) & Atheism (impersonal). Now within those two there are numerous forms of each for example under Theism there is Monotheism & Pantheism. Under Atheism there can be Deism or Naturalism. In my studies Naturalism is the view that all that exists is matter, energy and natural law. For various reasons I have come to reject Naturalism as my personal Worldview. Being that I reject Naturalism I believe that some form of a Super-naturalistic worldview makes more sense. I accept the possibility or likelihood of "metaphysical" realities. As you are aware there are very thick books describing such matters but for the sake of time I am being very succinct here.
 
Dualism is the view that there is a non-physical aspect to human beings--a mental/spiritual aspect and a physical aspect. (See the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on Dualism for reference.) The vast majority of people are dualists. More than that, they are what philosophers call "substance dualists" (aka Cartesian dualists) in that they believe in an immaterial spiritual plane of existence that is independent of physics. The major alternative to substance dualism is "property dualism"--the view that mental phenomena are not physical per se, but that mental/spiritual experience is a property of certain physical interactions. In modern terms, one might call it an emergent property.

Just out of curiosity, I would like to know whether you consider yourself a substance (Cartesian) or property dualist. If not, why not? So I offer two choices and an option to decline either label (with explanation).

I was curious about something. What type of philosophical worldview would you put property dualism under? Is it inherently atheistic? Is it under a purely naturalistic worldview? Or something else?
 
I was curious about something. What type of philosophical worldview would you put property dualism under? Is it inherently atheistic? Is it under a purely naturalistic worldview? Or something else?

Generally speaking, property dualism is compatible with materialism, so atheists would tend to be property dualists. Substance dualism is associated with spiritualism and is more compatible with theism.
 
But a rainbow only exists within the context of an observer, as your last sentence admits. They don't exist in the absence of an observer. So, are they really physical objects? Is any physical object in human experience something that exists independently of some observer? If you give it some serious thought, you may want to keep a bottle of painkillers close by.
So you would call a camera an observer?
That is, an "observer" needs no mind?

By "camera" I mean a lens, and viewing surface. Possibly also film or digital recorder (memory card), but I do not see that as necessary.

It seems to me an observer requires a mind. If so, rainbows exist without an observer.

Or would you say the image of the rainbow 🌈 produced by a camera is nonexistent until a mind observes it? Does not exist, kabam, now it does.

There would also be the issue of your implied claim that a camera can record non-existent things.
 
If you reread what I said, you'll see that I was the one to point out that you can capture images of rainbows with equipment that sense optical phenomena. Rainbows are optical phenomena. However, the rainbow bow that different people see (or different cameras record) are not exactly the same. Because rainbows depend on a perceptual perspective, they will not necessarily appear the be in the same place. Without some sensor to detect a rainbow, it simply doesn't exist. Think about it.




Rainbows are not solid objects. Muggers are. You shouldn't confuse the two.

When you see a tree, it is an optical phenomenon. Reflected light, not an actual tree.
If you move, even the slightest, you will not see the same tree.

One of those times I should have waded through all posts. My apologies.
 
I have seen the claim that "rainbows are not real" several times, none of them convincing.

Rainbows are light.
The characteristics of rainbows that you say demonstrates they are not real, can be applied to any occurrence of light.

What is the difference between any occurrence of light, and a rainbow?
 
Copernicus:You don't actually have to believe that thoughts are physical things any more than you have to believe that a rainbow is a physical thing. Rainbows exist only insofar as there exist perceivers to interact with them. They don't exist independently of the perception..

Light has physical properties. [ A physical property is any property of matter or energy that can be measured. It is an attribute of matter that can be observed or perceived. ]
[Einstein called these energy packets photons, and these are now recognised as a fundamental particle. Visible light is carried by photons, and so are all the other kinds of electromagnetic radiation like X-rays, microwaves and radio waves. In other words, light is a particle. ]BBC - Earth - What is a ray of light made of?

Only physical things can have physical properties.

Rainbows are an expression of light.

Therefore, rainbows have physical characteristics, and are physical.

Those who describe rainbows as magical apparitions, have a juvenile view of science.
 
If you reread what I said, you'll see that I was the one to point out that you can capture images of rainbows with equipment that sense optical phenomena. Rainbows are optical phenomena. However, the rainbow bow that different people see (or different cameras record) are not exactly the same. Because rainbows depend on a perceptual perspective, they will not necessarily appear the be in the same place. Without some sensor to detect a rainbow, it simply doesn't exist. Think about it.
Rainbows are not solid objects.

What are you talking about? A rainbow is a measurable and quantifiable property of visible light or if you prefer light that falls in visible spectrum of the various forms of electromagnetic radiation. The colors of the rainbow represent the components of visible light separated via specific conditions in the atmosphere typically after having rainfall. Scientists utilize certain equipment to do the same thing and can measure the wavelengths and frequencies of the various colors. Those different colors of light would exists whether or not there were humans to measure them.
 
What are you talking about? A rainbow is a measurable and quantifiable property of visible light or if you prefer light that falls in visible spectrum of the various forms of electromagnetic radiation. The colors of the rainbow represent the components of visible light separated via specific conditions in the atmosphere typically after having rainfall. Scientists utilize certain equipment to do the same thing and can measure the wavelengths and frequencies of the various colors. Those different colors of light would exists whether or not there were humans to measure them.

If you do a search of the internet for - rainbows not real - you will find numerous postings that make the same claims as the OP. The ones I looked at were targeted towards youth. "Fun stuff with science", that type of thing.

Simplification of science for the developing mind has its place.
In a serious discussion of science, probably not.
 
Here are some of my core thoughts pertaining to such issues.

The main point I will to make is that all philosophical positions/beliefs or lack thereof pertaining to the metaphysical are not based on proofs but largely are positions of faith, convictions and personal biases. What many people don’t realize is that all scientific intellectual endeavors require numerous presuppositions in order to pursue its tasks (In case there are some who don’t know what a presupposition is, I will provide a definition: Presuppose 1. To assume or suppose in advance. 2. To require or involve necessarily as an antecedent condition.). Some of these presuppositions include:

- the uniformity of nature
- induction
- laws of logic
- volition
- epistemology
- truth
- the reliability of the mind and the senses
- consciousness
- reality
- existence (philosophically speaking)

In other words, there are many things that “science” cannot prove. These presuppositions, or axioms, precede scientific endeavors and all searches for knowledge for that matter. It would pointless to debate such things since without their reality and validity there would be no foundation for any debate. Also if these presuppositions are “real” and “exist” to what do they owe their reality or existence to? As such if there is indeed a God or metaphysical realities would not they be “above,” transcend or be greater than these presuppositions? Consequently if “science” cannot “prove” these presuppositions why should I be foolish enough to think that “science” can prove or disprove the existence of God, or the soul or other metaphysical entities. Consider the abstract notion of “truth.” Is “truth” real or is it an illusion? Can you define it without presupposing it? Furthermore, if science is the study of the “natural” or physical world, and if God or the soul are metaphysical or supernatural, how then could science prove or disprove their existence? Such things ultimately are philosophical matters and hence any claim towards a “burden of proof” in philosophical matters is fallacious. These philosophical issues that have been around for centuries are not going away no matter how much science progresses.

As is usual, we are now accelerating down the 'regression of ignorance'.
 
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