What I think the country might need to focus on to counter trump

[Craig234]

Imagine the founders' nightmare got into the presidency, an authoritarian who cares nothing for the constitution. What was the plan? Congress primarily, and the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is a lost cause. Congress has been a dominated group of minions doing nothing to limit him.

A news story today says trump plans to deploy the military to more cities. A president deploying the military in the US at all is a historic aberration and threat to our freedoms, with any exceptions in the history books. We've never seen anything like these multiple deployments for clearly nothing but authoritarian attacks on our freedoms.

What we should look at doing is trying to organize pressure on Republicans in Congress to try to break their solid wall of unconditional support for trump. Organize challenges to their re-election in 2026. That might need to include withdrawing the challenge if they turn on trump.

We should make the terrified they will be defeated if they support trump's actions. That's his power over them, threatening them with a challenge if they don't do as he says, the people should create a stronger threat if they do what he says.

That might be nearly the only effective approach - if even it can work.

 

[ataraxia]

Imagine the founders' nightmare got into the presidency, an authoritarian who cares nothing for the constitution. What was the plan? Congress primarily, and the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is a lost cause. Congress has been a dominated group of minions doing nothing to limit him.

A news story today says trump plans to deploy the military to more cities. A president deploying the military in the US at all is a historic aberration and threat to our freedoms, with any exceptions in the history books. We've never seen anything like these multiple deployments for clearly nothing but authoritarian attacks on our freedoms.

What we should look at doing is trying to organize pressure on Republicans in Congress to try to break their solid wall of unconditional support for trump. Organize challenges to their re-election in 2026. That might need to include withdrawing the challenge if they turn on trump.

We should make the terrified they will be defeated if they support trump's actions. That's his power over them, threatening them with a challenge if they don't do as he says, the people should create a stronger threat if they do what he says.

That might be nearly the only effective approach - if even it can work.

Nice thought. But there is still waaay too much popular support for Trump for that to work. The American people WANT this. The Democrats are not going to win another election in this country until they can reassure the American people that they can be at least as bigoted and anti-science as MAGA. Otherwise, forget it.

That's the reality of where our country is today. You have to start with the facts.

 

[Craig234]

Nice thought. But there is still waaay too much popular support for Trump for that to work. The American people WANT this. The Democrats are not going to win another election in this country until they can reassure the American people that they can be at least as bigoted and anti-science as MAGA. Otherwise, forget it.

That's the reality of where our country is today. You have to start with the facts.

I think that's wrong.

And if it were right, I think Democrats need to push for change. Every one of trump's policy areas is supported by less than half the country, some by a lot.

 

[ataraxia]

Every one of trump's policy areas is supported by less than half the country, some by a lot.

Doesn't matter. Most Americans have made it clear they would give their right arm to see vulnerable ethnic, racial, religious, sexual minorities hurt and marginalized. That may not shown up in polls, but it does when it comes to voting day.

 

[trixare4kids]

Most Americans have made it clear they would give their right arm to see vulnerable ethnic, racial, religious, sexual minorities hurt and marginalized. That may not shown up in polls, but it does when it comes to voting day.

Your proof for your allegation is where? Or is this just another anti-political opposition opinion you hope sticks to the wall?

 

[ataraxia]

Your proof for your allegation is where? Or is this just another anti-political opposition opinion you hope sticks to the wall?

My proof is that America just voted for an ignorant, hateful, lying, rude, bigoted, narcissistic, exploitative, treasonous, 34-count convicted felon, rapist, and grifter to represent them to the world. In a democracy, who people vote for is a representation of who they are, and their values.

The first time around, some people were excusing this by saying that America really didn't know who it was voting for. But the second time around: that was no mistake. It became clear that that's what the American people really feel best represents them and their values.

 

[Perotista]

Imagine the founders' nightmare got into the presidency, an authoritarian who cares nothing for the constitution. What was the plan? Congress primarily, and the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is a lost cause. Congress has been a dominated group of minions doing nothing to limit him.

A news story today says trump plans to deploy the military to more cities. A president deploying the military in the US at all is a historic aberration and threat to our freedoms, with any exceptions in the history books. We've never seen anything like these multiple deployments for clearly nothing but authoritarian attacks on our freedoms.

What we should look at doing is trying to organize pressure on Republicans in Congress to try to break their solid wall of unconditional support for trump. Organize challenges to their re-election in 2026. That might need to include withdrawing the challenge if they turn on trump.

We should make the terrified they will be defeated if they support trump's actions. That's his power over them, threatening them with a challenge if they don't do as he says, the people should create a stronger threat if they do what he says.

That might be nearly the only effective approach - if even it can work.

Over the last few decades members of the president’s party has for the most part shown unconditional support for the president of their party for the most part. There’s been a few who of the president’s party who stood up against the president of their party, but they have been few. Which has led me to post and believe that members of congress of the president’s party have become more a part of the administration than members of the institution of the congress. This is especially true since we’ve entered today’s modern political era of polarization, the great divide, the super, mega, ultra-high partisanship.

Trying to put pressure on the republicans in congress won’t work. They’re more afraid of Trump, who has the ability to organize his MAGA supporters against any republican congressional member who opposes him, he can have them primaried out before reaching the general election.

Then you have the public’s perception of both major parties in congress. The democrats fair a bit worse than the republican members today, Democrats in congress, 29% favorable, 59% unfavorable. Republicans in congress, 36% favorable, 54% unfavorable. Questions 19A and 19B.

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_7Bn59Tx.pdf

Questions 14A and 14B will give you how all Americans view both major parties in the link above. It isn’t pretty. It seems Americans are fed up with both major parties these days.

 

[trixare4kids]

My proof is that America just voted for an ignorant, hateful, lying, rude, bigoted, treasonous, 34-count convicted felon, rapist, and grifter to represent them to the world. In a democracy, who people vote for is a representation of who they are, and their values.

You didn't prove anything. Your emotional outburst you'd like to think is factual is solely based on confirmation bias. IOW, it's little more than an ad hom fallacy.

Edited statement:
An ad hom fail is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone attacks the character or personal traits of an individual or a political group when making their argument rather than addressing the argument itself. Now ask us what we think of Democrats and you're likely going to get an opinion based on emotion.

An introductory course in debate fallacy:

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ataraxia]

You didn't prove anything. Your emotional outburst you'd like to think is factual is solely based on confirmation bias. IOW, it's little more than an ad hom fallacy.


The ad hominem fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone attacks the character or personal traits of an individual making an argument rather than addressing the argument itself.

Are you saying who people vote for is not a reflection of them and their values?

 

[trixare4kids]

Are you saying who people vote for is not a reflection of them and their values?

Values are not universal. Once you learn that, you will broaden your horizon.
If I voted for Biden/Harris and then Harris again, would that affirm your value system? It would demean my own because I don't share their vision for this country. Not at all. Does that make my value system bad? Okay, but then ask me what I think of your own. We are sharing opinions here, not facts.

 

[TobyOne]

Nobody cares what you think. As usual.

 

[ataraxia]

Values are not universal. Once you learn that, you will broaden your horizon.
If I voted for Biden/Harris and then Harris again, would that affirm your value system? It would demean my own because I don't share their vision for this country. Not at all. Does that make my value system bad? Okay, but then ask me what I think of your own. We are sharing opinions here, not facts.

No, it's not about opinions or values. It' about basic facts. Yes, climate change is real, and a serious threat. Distancing, masking, and vaccination works in a deadly pandemic. Trickle down economics doesn't work. The Earth is not just 6000 years old. Vaccines don't cause autism. Wind turbines don't cause cancer. There are no cat eating Haitians in Ohio.

Trump voters died at 3 times the rate of everyone else because they didn't listen to doctors and thought they knew better, or that it was just a "difference of values and opinion". The result was they died at 3 times the rate of everyone else. Pretty steep price to pay for "just an opinion".

People in counties that voted Trump more likely to die from Covid – study

Areas that voted for Trump by at least 60% in November 2020 had 2.7 times the death rate than counties that voted heavily for Biden

www.theguardian.com

In fact, the more they voted for Trump, the more they died. It was like a direct linear correlation.

They looked into the reasons why. Initially, the hypothesis was that it was because these areas were generally older, and so more vulnerable to severe complications from Covid. But that did not turn out to be a statistically significant variable. Here is what they found: it was because they live in a cesspool of misinformation, ignorance, paranoia, and lies. That's just what happens when your beliefs do not correspond to hard reality: you walk into a brick wall. That is not opinion. Reality can be a harsh teacher.

"We discuss several mechanisms explaining why, to some extent universally, conservatives (the right-wing oriented public) were less likely to follow public health recommendations, were more COVID-19 vaccine-hesitant, and had increased infection rates, poorer health outcomes, and increased mortality compared to left-wing oriented public. The mechanisms explaining the links include the media, trust, cognitions, and values. We conclude the chapter with lessons learned during the COVID-19 pandemic and future research directions on the pandemics' politicization."

http://[URL]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39102194/

 

[trixare4kids]

No, it's not about opinions or values. It' about basic facts. Yes, climate change is real, and a serious threat. Distancing, masking, and vaccination works in a deadly pandemic. Trickle down economics doesn't work. The Earth is not just 6000 years old. Vaccines don't cause autism. Wind turbines don't cause cancer. There are no cat eating Haitians in Ohio.

Trump voters died at 3 times the rate of everyone else because they didn't listen to doctors and thought they knew better, or that it was just a "difference of values and opinion". The result was they died at 3 times the rate of everyone else. Pretty steep price to pay for "just an opinion".

People in counties that voted Trump more likely to die from Covid – study

Areas that voted for Trump by at least 60% in November 2020 had 2.7 times the death rate than counties that voted heavily for Biden

www.theguardian.com

In fact, the more they voted for Trump, the more they died. It was like a direct linear correlation.

They looked into the reasons why. Initially, the hypothesis was that it was because these areas were generally older, and so more vulnerable to severe complications from Covid. But that did not turn out to be a statistically significant variable. Here is what they found: it was because they live in a cesspool of misinformation, ignorance, paranoia, and lies. That's just what happens when your beliefs do not correspond to hard reality: you walk into a brick wall. That is not opinion. Reality can be a harsh teacher.

"We discuss several mechanisms explaining why, to some extent universally, conservatives (the right-wing oriented public) were less likely to follow public health recommendations, were more COVID-19 vaccine-hesitant, and had increased infection rates, poorer health outcomes, and increased mortality compared to left-wing oriented public. The mechanisms explaining the links include the media, trust, cognitions, and values. We conclude the chapter with lessons learned during the COVID-19 pandemic and future research directions on the pandemics' politicization."

http://[URL]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39102194/

You're goal-post shifting. You originally said it was about values, and values are subjective in nature, hence, using values as a debate strategy against your political opponents doesn't work. That's why the woke crap didn't work either, the we're good, they're bad strategy. The voters saw Harris as an airhead, someone who wasn't prepared to lead. I truly believe the voters got it right in 2024 because the Democrats haven't stopped demonizing the voters, much like you've done above. IOW, their messaging remains very poor. If they want to carry on doing that though, be my guest. It's been shown not to work. So, go right ahead. We don't mind. but I'll keep pointing out that it's not fact-based like I have from Post #5 and on.

 

[Craig234]

Doesn't matter. Most Americans have made it clear they would give their right arm to see vulnerable ethnic, racial, religious, sexual minorities hurt and marginalized. That may not shown up in polls, but it does when it comes to voting day.

You know more voted against trump than for him, all three elections.

 

[ataraxia]

You're goal-post shifting. You originally said it was about values, and values are subjective in nature, hence, using values as a debate strategy against your political opponents doesn't work. Tha's why the woke crap didn't work either, the we're good, they're bad strategy.

It's a value to respect science over Q conspiracy theories. It's a value to not vote for a convicted felon and rapist to represent you to the world.

I truly believe the voters got it right in 2024 because the Democrats haven't stopped demonizing the voters, much like you've done above. IOW, their messaging is very poor.

Of course they have to worry about messaging. That's just politicians realizing the majority of this country are woefully ignorant and deplorable, and finding a way to reach them before they hurt themselves too much.

But I'm not a politician so I can just say it like it is.

 

[ataraxia]

You know more voted against trump than for him, all three elections.

Doesn't matter. Any country that votes for someone THIS vile, ignorant, mendacious, hateful, rude, and contemptible- ***TWICE***- deserves nothing but contempt.

 

[Helix]

Gotta win first, and the normal rules have been scrapped.

 

[trixare4kids]

It's a value to respect science over Q conspiracy theories. It's a value to not vote for a convicted felon and rapist to represent you to the world.


Of course they have to worry about messaging. That's just politicians realizing the majority of this country are woefully ignorant and deplorable, and finding a way to reach them before they hurt themselves too much.

But I'm not a politician so I can just say it like it is.

Again, this is all in your opinion.

As for your claim, Trump voters died at 3 times the rate of everyone else because they didn't listen to doctors and thought they knew better... Incorrectly blaming them or saying they thought they knew better or were simply deplorable because they ignored or distrusted public health messaging is wrong-headed on your part.

As we know now, they were correct to distrust the inconsistent messaging that changed nearly on a daily basis. Now we know they were fed a lot of bunk. While vaccine hesitancy played a role, the death rate disparity reflects a mix of policy resistance, misinformation, disinformation, and not just their individual attitudes.

 

[trixare4kids]

Doesn't matter. Any country that votes for someone THIS vile, ignorant, mendacious, hateful, rude, and contemptible- ***TWICE***- deserves nothing but contempt.

I bet you're the life of the party.

I will say true liberals do not share your contemptuous hateful attitude toward their fellow Americans. They may disagree with them but they respect their right to think their own way. IMO, you are just closed off to the real world and not representative of liberal thought at large. I am curious as to how you got this way though if you're willing to share.

 

[ataraxia]

I bet you're the life of the party.

I will say true liberals do not share your contemptuous hateful attitude toward their fellow Americans. They may disagree with them but they respect their right to think their own way. IMO, you are just closed off to the real world and not representative of liberal thought at large. I am curious as to how you got this way though if you're willing to share.

Too many factors to start counting here. It started maybe with lying for 6 years straight about how you were not going to believe what his "top people" were finding on Obama's secret Kenyan birth certificate (obvious racist dog whistle), to the insults to a decorated war hero and captured POW, insulting purple heart recipients, bragging about grabbing women's private parts, to propagating doubts and lies about climate change science, to the resurgence of open and proud racism and bigotry in this country, to undermining the advice of physicians and medical groups during a deadly pandemic for private gains, to 2 impeachments, 34 convicted felony counts, sexual assault, lying about American elections and inciting a violent insurrection on the US Capitol for the first time in American history, to now sending armed federal troops into US cities for no reason other than theater, etc, etc....

I am sure there is a lot more I can come up with, but it gets exhausting. If you don't know, you are probably in a cult at this point.

 

[Craig234]

Doesn't matter. Any country that votes for someone THIS vile, ignorant, mendacious, hateful, rude, and contemptible- ***TWICE***- deserves nothing but contempt.

It does. You said "most Americans".