What harm, exactly, have undocumented migrants done?

[j brown's body]

Sorry not sorry, but your attempts to use AI as a proxy for your ad hominem attack is not going to work.

Your inability to attribute any major problems of the past ~50 years to undocumented migration is noted.





Yet more attempts to distract. I specified "undocumented migration" in the title and twice in the body.

I don't think you need to post anything more, your inability to address the topic with clarity, accountability, or any philosophical understanding is already clear.

Aren't you troubled by looking at them, since they aren't really white?

 

[Luce]

I'm beginning to like Copilot. I asked it to analyze the OP's post. Here is what Copilot had to say...

The post by Visbek on Debate Politics is a pointed, somewhat sardonic prompt designed to interrogate the perceived link between undocumented immigration and major national crises. Here's a breakdown of its rhetorical structure and underlying implications:​

​

Intent and Framing​

• Tone: The post opens with a casual, almost dismissive observation—“some people are super mad”—which sets a skeptical tone toward anti-immigration sentiment. The phrase “fever… has ebbed” suggests that the intensity of public outrage has waned, implying it may have been more emotional than rational.
• Purpose: Visbek isn’t just asking which crises undocumented immigrants have caused—he’s challenging the assumption that they’ve caused any. By listing major crises from the past 50 years (e.g., stagflation, recessions, 9/11, COVID), he implicitly invites readers to confront the lack of direct causality between undocumented immigration and these events.
• Poll as Provocation: The poll format is strategic. It forces respondents to either:
  • Select “None of the above,” which undermines the idea that undocumented immigrants are responsible for major crises.
  • Choose “Other,” which requires them to specify a crisis—thus demanding evidence or at least a coherent argument.

​

Subtext and Rhetorical Strategy​

• Burden of Proof Shift: Visbek flips the usual narrative. Instead of asking defenders of immigration to justify its benefits, he asks critics to prove its harms—specifically, harms of a magnitude comparable to historic national crises.
• Historical Context: By referencing events like the 2008 financial crisis or 9/11, Visbek draws attention to crises with well-documented causes that have little to do with immigration. This juxtaposition subtly ridicules the idea that undocumented immigrants are a primary threat.
• Invitation to Debate: The phrase “Have at it” is a deliberate provocation. It signals openness to responses but also challenges readers to bring substance, not just sentiment.

​

Responses and Engagement​

The replies so far reflect a mix of ideological perspectives:​

• Upsideguy emphasizes cultural anxiety and racial discomfort as drivers of anti-immigrant sentiment, rather than empirical harm.
• Gozaburo offers a more philosophical take, arguing that immigration alters national identity and political culture—suggesting that the “harm” is sociological, not economic or violent.
• Juks counters with a pragmatic observation: undocumented immigrants may contribute positively, especially given selective enforcement policies.

​

Strategic Implications​

For someone like you, Mycroft—who values clarity, accountability, and the philosophical underpinnings of law and governance—this post is a textbook example of reframing a debate to expose weak causal claims. It invites a deeper inquiry into:​

• What constitutes “harm” in a legal or political sense?
• How do we distinguish between cultural change and crisis?
• Should immigration policy be driven by empirical evidence or identity politics?

Well, I'm not going to pursue this any further unless the OP wants me to. Heck, I might just ask Copilot to create a response for me.

btw, something Copilot didn't touch on is the fact that Visbek conflates legal immigration with illegal immigration in the OP. That only serves to muddy the waters.

More AI drool.

You are dismissed with contempt.

 

[Visbek]

Since we apparently now trust Copilot....

(Note: This was done with a private browser window, VPN, and no account, so the AI isn't going to try and suck up to me.)

​

Have undocumented immigrants caused any major economic crises or recessions since 1980?​

No. There is no credible evidence that undocumented immigration has triggered any of the U.S. recessions or economic crises since 1980. Major downturns—in 1980–82, 1990–91, 2001, 2007–09, and 2020—stemmed from factors such as aggressive Federal Reserve interest-rate hikes, oil‐price shocks, the dot-com collapse, the housing-and-financial-sector crisis, and the COVID-19 pandemic.


Undocumented workers have reacted to economic cycles rather than driven them. The unauthorized immigrant population in the U.S. peaked around 2006–07 and then declined as labor demand weakened during the Great Recession, illustrating that downturns shrink, rather than expand, undocumented inflows.

---

Have undocumented immigrants caused any wars, terrorist attacks, or crime waves in the U.S. since 1980?​

No. There is no evidence that undocumented immigrants have sparked any wars, instigated terrorist attacks with fatalities, or unleashed crime waves in the United States over the past four decades.

Wars​

• Undocumented immigration is a flow of individuals, not a state actor or armed group.
• All U.S. military engagements since 1980—from Grenada and Panama to the Gulf War, Afghanistan, and Iraq—have been driven by geopolitical, ideological, or strategic considerations, not by migrant movements.

Terrorist Attacks​

• A comprehensive Cato Institute analysis found that between 1975 and 2023, zero people were murdered in terrorist attacks on U.S. soil carried out by individuals who entered the country illegally.
• While foreign-born terrorists have struck on U.S. soil (notably 9/11), none of those attackers had slipped in as undocumented migrants through our borders.

Crime Waves​

• The notion that undocumented immigrants unleash surges of violent or property crime is routinely overstated for political effect.
• Multiple empirical studies show that areas with larger undocumented-immigrant populations experienced equal or larger declines in crime rates during the 1990s and 2000s compared to areas with fewer immigrants.

---

 

[Visbek]

Man. Copilot is super woke.

Why Public Perceptions of Immigrant-Driven Crime Seldom Match Statistical Realities​

Public perceptions of immigrants and crime often diverge from data because of a complex interplay of cognitive biases, media amplification, political rhetoric, and social distance. These forces shape beliefs more powerfully than empirical evidence on crime rates among immigrant populations.

---

Cognitive and Psychological Factors​

• Availability Heuristic
  People assess risk based on how easily examples come to mind. High-profile incidents involving immigrants are more memorable, even if they are statistically rare.
• Confirmation Bias
  Individuals with preexisting negative views of immigrants selectively notice or recall stories that reinforce the stereotype of criminality, while disregarding contrary evidence.
• Social Identity and Threat Perceptions
  When groups feel their cultural or economic status is threatened, they become more inclined to view “the other” as dangerous, inflating perceived crime risks.

---

Media and Information Ecosystem​

• Sensationalism and News Framing
  Crime stories involving immigrants often receive disproportionate coverage because they generate clicks and views. Sensational headlines can skew public understanding.
• Echo Chambers on Social Media
  Algorithms curate content that reinforces users’ biases, creating feedback loops where anti-immigrant narratives proliferate unchecked.
• Lack of Contextual Reporting
  Media outlets rarely contextualize crime data (for instance, rates per capita) or contrast immigrant versus native-born statistics, obscuring the true comparative picture.

---

Political and Historical Drivers​

• Rhetorical Strategies
  Politicians have long used “tough on crime” messaging tied to immigration to mobilize voters. These narratives persist across administrations, regardless of factual basis.
• Scapegoating in Economic Downturns
  During periods of economic stress, immigrants are an easy target for blame, even though data show crime rates often decline in downturns.
• Legacy of Nativism
  Historical precedents—from 19th-century anti-Catholicism to modern anti-Latin-American sentiment—have entrenched the myth of the criminal immigrant in the national psyche.

---

Social Distance and Lack of Direct Contact​

• Segregated Communities
  When people have little firsthand interaction with immigrants, stereotypes fill the void. Studies find that closer intergroup contact reduces perceived threat and corrects misinformation.
• Absence of Positive Narratives
  Immigrant contributions to neighborhoods, local economies, and civic life are underreported, so positive examples fail to counterbalance fear-based stories.

 

[Mycroft]

Sorry not sorry, but your attempts to use AI as a proxy for your ad hominem attack is not going to work.

Your inability to attribute any major problems of the past ~50 years to undocumented migration is noted.





Yet more attempts to distract. I specified "undocumented migration" in the title and twice in the body.

I don't think you need to post anything more, your inability to address the topic with clarity, accountability, or any philosophical understanding is already clear.

shrug...

Have it your own way.

But hey...brings some facts to the table and maybe we can actually have a discussion sometime.

 

[j brown's body]

A speeding driver is more dangerous than an undocumented immigrant.

 

[BabaVoss]

Illegal immigration is a manufactured crisis.
Undocumented works, by and large, have been a boon to the nation.
Trump's efforts to rid the nation of this imaginary crisis will cost money and jobs.

.

 

[Visbek]

But hey...brings some facts to the table and maybe we can actually have a discussion sometime.

Okay then. Please try to enjoy each fact equally.

• Undocumented immigrants have not caused any recessions or economic downturns.
• Undocumented immigrants have not started any wars. (In fact, they are often fleeing violent conflicts.)
• Undocumented immigrants did not cause the Opiate Crisis in the US. The biggest single entity involved in that was Purdue Pharmaceuticals, though others were also involved.
• Undocumented immigrants have not committed any major terrorist attacks on US soil.
• Undocumented immigrants have not caused any major crime waves.
• Undocumented immigrants have not caused waves of inflation.
• Undocumented immigrants have not caused waves of unemployment.
• Undocumented immigrants have not caused any pandemics.
• Undocumented immigrants have not encouraged corporations to replace workers with automation, or to move jobs offshore.

So. Are you able to identify any actual major problems or crises, experienced by the US, in the past 50 years?

 

[Stealers Wheel]

It's obvious that some people are super mad over migration in the US -- though it's also obvious, to some at least, that the fever which peaked late last year has ebbed:

So I'm curious... which of the following recent problems or crises can we actually blame on undocumented immigrants?

In the poll section, I've listed the biggest problems of the past ~50 years. If you select "other," please specify the issue. Have at it.

It's called "scapegoating." Pandering politicians have done this for generations. In front of your constituents, point to someone weak and claim "They are your enemy! They are the cause of all your problems! Vote for me and I will deal with them!"

This has been done here and all over the world. Italians, Irish, Chinese, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Jews, and blacks have all suffered the slings and arrows of politicians and non-critical thinking voters who need someone - anyone - to blame for their troubles.

So, the attacks on those "others" continue, all the while, the lives of the voters do not change. Nevertheless, they have been conditioned to believe it is always those "others" who are to blame.

 

[Eriech]

Illegal immigration is a manufactured crisis.
Undocumented works, by and large, have been a boon to the nation.
Trump's efforts to rid the nation of this imaginary crisis will cost money and jobs.

.

When illegal aliens are not counted in the census will states and cities continue their sanctuary policies?
The biggest "harm" to me where I live is that Democrats are over represented in government. That would be perceived as benefit for those on the left though a harm to all.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

...brings some facts to the table ...

@Mycroft, you're hilarious!

We've been asking you many years to "bring some facts to the table" regarding the massive voter and election fraud you claim there is a mountain of evidence for, and yet we get NOTHING from you.

The irony of your post is massive.

 

[GIJane]

You conveniently left off murder, human trafficking, rape, pedophilia, car theft, robbery, drug trafficking, gang exploitation. Did I miss something? Oh, yes, CROSSING THE ****ING BORDER ILLEGALLY.

Since I don't plan to debate this weak ass poll further:

1 death, 1 trafficked person, 1 rape, 1 pedophile, 1 car theft at gunpoint, 1 robbery, 1 gang banger, Are all 1 too many.

NOW< you all can slap each other on the back on how righteous you are protecting all the poor brown people. Because you know what? If it was YOUR son or daughter killed you wouldn't be feeling the same ****ing way.

 

[Visbek]

You conveniently left off murder, human trafficking, rape, pedophilia, car theft, robbery, drug trafficking, gang exploitation. Did I miss something?

Yes. You missed how undocumented immigrants commit crimes, including the ones you listed, at rates far below native-born Americans.

You also missed how 95% of undocumented immigrants aren't engaged in violent crimes.

That means that if you kicked every single undocumented immigrant out of the US, crime rates would RISE, not fall. Sounds counter-productive to me.

Oh, yes, CROSSING THE ****ING BORDER ILLEGALLY.

Since you missed it:

I'm asking what harm RESULTS from crossing the border illegally.

So what you're saying is: " 'Crossing the border illegally' is the harm caused by crossing the border illegally." That's circular reasoning, i.e. blatantly fallacious.

1 death, 1 trafficked person, 1 rape, 1 pedophile, 1 car theft at gunpoint, 1 robbery, 1 gang banger, Are all 1 too many.

By that logic, the United States should kick the great state of Louisiana out of the Union, as it has the highest homicide rate in the US. If one homicide is too many!!! then surely we should stop the scourge of Louisiana homicides by kicking them out. Or just lock up everyone in the whole state. Who cares that 95% of Louisianans are innocent?

NOW< you all can slap each other on the back on how righteous you are protecting all the poor brown people. Because you know what? If it was YOUR son or daughter killed you wouldn't be feeling the same ****ing way.

It is truly stunning that anyone falls for such childish illogic.

If we took your claims seriously:
• We should ban cars, because ~135 Americans per day die in automobile accidents. One death is too many!
• We should definitely ban guns, because there are ~130 gun deaths per day. One death is too many!
• Cigarettes kill 1,300 Americans a day. Ban 'em!

Same for soda, alcohol, red meat, motorcycles... The list goes on.

Go ahead, try to tell us that it's fine to accept hundreds of deaths per day because... you like cars and guns and smokes.

 

[BabaVoss]

When illegal aliens are not counted in the census will states and cities continue their sanctuary policies?

The census counts all persons.
States and cities follow various policies as they see fit.

The biggest "harm" to me where I live is that Democrats are over represented in government.

???

That would be perceived as benefit for those on the left though a harm to all.

Undocumented poeple cannot vote.

 

[Eriech]

The census counts all persons.
States and cities follow various policies as they see fit.


???


Undocumented poeple cannot vote.

If they are included in the count they are represented. That needs to be fixed. Foreign nationals should not be affecting American politics.

 

[Josie]

It's obvious that some people are super mad over migration in the US -- though it's also obvious, to some at least, that the fever which peaked late last year has ebbed:

So I'm curious... which of the following recent problems or crises can we actually blame on undocumented immigrants?

In the poll section, I've listed the biggest problems of the past ~50 years. If you select "other," please specify the issue. Have at it.

What say you?

 

[BabaVoss]

If they are included in the count they are represented. That needs to be fixed. Foreign nationals should not be affecting American politics.

You're wrong. Everyone who lives here is supposed to be represented.

The census is mandated by the Constitution.

The U.S. Constitution, in Article I, Section 2, mandates a decennial census to count "all persons" residing in the United States every 10 years to apportion seats in the House of Representatives. The Fourteenth Amendment reinforces this by requiring the count of the "whole number of persons in each State" for representation purposes.

This is how it was intended to work. It was designed to represent everyone who lives here. That is what "all persons" means.

.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

It's strange how, according to this poll, the migrants don't cause us any problems, but Trump supporters want them all gone. It's almost like they don't like migrants because they have brown skin and speak Spanish, and it's not more complicated than that.

 

[RF667799]

Yes. You missed how undocumented immigrants commit crimes, including the ones you listed, at rates far below native-born Americans.

You also missed how 95% of undocumented immigrants aren't engaged in violent crimes.

That means that if you kicked every single undocumented immigrant out of the US, crime rates would RISE, not fall. Sounds counter-productive to me.


Since you missed it:

I'm asking what harm RESULTS from crossing the border illegally.

So what you're saying is: " 'Crossing the border illegally' is the harm caused by crossing the border illegally." That's circular reasoning, i.e. blatantly fallacious.


By that logic, the United States should kick the great state of Louisiana out of the Union, as it has the highest homicide rate in the US. If one homicide is too many!!! then surely we should stop the scourge of Louisiana homicides by kicking them out. Or just lock up everyone in the whole state. Who cares that 95% of Louisianans are innocent?





It is truly stunning that anyone falls for such childish illogic.

If we took your claims seriously:
• We should ban cars, because ~135 Americans per day die in automobile accidents. One death is too many!
• We should definitely ban guns, because there are ~130 gun deaths per day. One death is too many!
• Cigarettes kill 1,300 Americans a day. Ban 'em!

Same for soda, alcohol, red meat, motorcycles... The list goes on.

Go ahead, try to tell us that it's fine to accept hundreds of deaths per day because... you like cars and guns and smokes.

That's what I keep trying to tell the people in the gun threads who lose their marbles over a murder rate that is measured in the thousandths of a percent.

 

[Sabre]

Yes. You missed how undocumented immigrants commit crimes, including the ones you listed, at rates far below native-born Americans.

You also missed how 95% of undocumented immigrants aren't engaged in violent crimes.

That means that if you kicked every single undocumented immigrant out of the US, crime rates would RISE, not fall. Sounds counter-productive to me.


Since you missed it:

I'm asking what harm RESULTS from crossing the border illegally.

So what you're saying is: " 'Crossing the border illegally' is the harm caused by crossing the border illegally." That's circular reasoning, i.e. blatantly fallacious.


By that logic, the United States should kick the great state of Louisiana out of the Union, as it has the highest homicide rate in the US. If one homicide is too many!!! then surely we should stop the scourge of Louisiana homicides by kicking them out. Or just lock up everyone in the whole state. Who cares that 95% of Louisianans are innocent?





It is truly stunning that anyone falls for such childish illogic.

If we took your claims seriously:
• We should ban cars, because ~135 Americans per day die in automobile accidents. One death is too many!
• We should definitely ban guns, because there are ~130 gun deaths per day. One death is too many!
• Cigarettes kill 1,300 Americans a day. Ban 'em!

Same for soda, alcohol, red meat, motorcycles... The list goes on.

Go ahead, try to tell us that it's fine to accept hundreds of deaths per day because... you like cars and guns and smokes.

Like most who use the gun death statics you omitted a major detail - suicides account for the majority of these fatalities.

 

[RF667799]

Like most who use the gun death statics you omitted a major detail - suicides account for the majority of these fatalities.

It doesn't matter much in this case, because even including suicides "gun deaths" are a tiny number.

His overall reasoning is sound. There is no reason to ban guns on account of gun deaths, when that reason doesn't extend to car deaths, motorcycle deaths, cigarette deaths, alcohol deaths...

 

[reflechissez]

Like most who use the gun death statics you omitted a major detail - suicides account for the majority of these fatalities.

You are not harmed by someone else's suicide unless they decide to take you with them.

 

[RF667799]

You are not harmed by someone else's suicide unless they decide to take you with them.

And then the ones they "take with them" are accounted for in the murder category.