What does liberty mean to you?

This question is very simple yet hard to define. Morally and ethically we are challenged on all fronts from the world we live in. How does this effect the way we perceive liberty and how it should be practiced?

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."
--Thomas Jefferson

free to choose and travel my own way in life....as long as I do not impede the choices and travels of others...

I feel that liberty cannot be accurately defined without a context. To have liberty requires a force that would or could take that liberty away. Within a community, liberty can exist only to the extent that the other members agree to mutually respect its agreed upon conditions.

Liberty can possess similar characteristics among communities but is not an intercommunity hypostasis in itself. In a federalized community such as the United States, one side's liberty can easily be the other side's oppression.

In negating States Rights, the Federal Government has shown its contempt for liberty. In acquiescing, our people have shown their susceptibility to tyranny.

Every road of every government eventually leads to tyranny. Our Constitution provides countermeasures to tyranny...but it is up to the people to exercise these countermeasures before they are taken away by force.

Cyrano said it best, in my view.

To sing, to laugh, to dream,
To walk in my own way and be alone,
Free, with an eye to see things as they are,
A voice that means manhood- to **** my hat
Where I choose- At a word, a Yes, a No,
To fight- or write. To travel any road
Under the sun, under the stars, nor doubt
If fame or fortune lie beyond the bourne-
ever to make a line I have not heard
In my own heart; yet, with all modesty
To say: “My soul, be satisfied with flowers,
With fruit, with weeds even; but gather them
In the one garden you may call your own.”
So, when I win some triumph, by some chance,
Render no share to Caesar- in a word,
I am too proud to be a parasite,
And if my nature wants the germ that grows
Towering to heaven like the mountain pine,
Or like the oak, sheltering multitudes-
I stand, not high it may be- But alone!

Click to expand...

nodualism said:

This question is very simple yet hard to define. Morally and ethically we are challenged on all fronts from the world we live in. How does this effect the way we perceive liberty and how it should be practiced?

Click to expand...

I should be able to do anything I want as long as it doesn't forcefully take from anyone else.

That is liberty.

It should be practiced with good manners.

nodualism said:

This question is very simple yet hard to define. Morally and ethically we are challenged on all fronts from the world we live in. How does this effect the way we perceive liberty and how it should be practiced?

Click to expand...

My opinion is that for many, the idea of liberty is becoming an all to frightening ideal for people to embrace. Frightening, because liberty entails certain responsibilites for your own actions. Frightening, because it is always threatened by those that would curtail your liberty for their own satisfaction. Frightening, because you have to defend it, else you are an accomplice to tyranny. Don't believe me.....

bub said:

The problem is that this liberty can cause a lot of harm to others.....

Click to expand...

And not only is the idea of liberty frightening to many people, when it comes to self application, but the idea of spreading the ideals of liberty to others is even more so. That is why we see alot of talk, but not alot of action from world leaders that enjoy relative liberty, compared to the countries they chastise for not allowing a modicum of respectable liberty in their societies. Its too frightening for them, the implications of even more free societies and the costs, paid with blood, that liberty entails.
That is why we see people try to restrict the rights of law abiding citizens to own weapons. Because they fear what their fellow man might do with liberty. For them, they gladly deny all of society a liberty, because they value the notion of safety, over the notion of self determination.

Coincidentally, liberty may require the greatest sacrifice. Safety and comfort in the hands of the powerful, only requires that you sacrifice your liberty. Liberty, may well require you sacrifice your life. Some are willing to put their lives on the line, to secure their own liberty, and what I feel is an even more noble cause, to secure the liberty of others. Many are not, even those who might proclaim to be on the side of liberty, would go gently, or deliver their fellow man, into the arms of a tyrant when the moment of truth was upon them.

WI Crippler said:

My opinion is that for many, the idea of liberty is becoming an all to frightening ideal for people to embrace. Frightening, because liberty entails certain responsibilites for your own actions. Frightening, because it is always threatened by those that would curtail your liberty for their own satisfaction. Frightening, because you have to defend it, else you are an accomplice to tyranny. Don't believe me.....

Click to expand...

Sadly, I do believe you. I find it all too easy to believe you.

Freedom frightens, because freedom is dangerous. Freedom is a chance at success; it is not the guarantee of success. If you are free, you are free to fight, and you are free to lose. You are free to lose everything, even your life.

Why value freedom then? Why is freedom preferable to safety? For some, perhaps even most, it is not. For others, we see in the freedom to lose the chance for victory, for the sweetest of success. Where there is nothing that can be lost, there is nothing to be gained. Without the spectre of defeat there is no hope for victory.

Freedom is indeed frightening. For myself, who loves to win, that frightening is a most curious and constant comfort.

celticlord said:

Freedom is indeed frightening. For myself, who loves to win, that frightening is a most curious and constant comfort.

Click to expand...

That's called living brother.

I once thought that liberty, or freedom, was a self-evident concept that anyone could understand.

Later I came to realize that many people see liberty or freedom in an entirely different perspective than I do.

Some people think being "Free" means "someone else pays my way". I was stunned to find out that some people actually misconstrue liberty this way. There's that song that goes, "if this is your free country, why does it cost so much to live". Even if that line is half-irony, it shows a remarkable lack of understanding of liberty.

Some people don't value liberty, they value order and safety. To my great disappointment, Jackie Chan recently said that he didn't think individual liberty was good or desireable for China. He said Chinese needed someone to tell them what to do, or you got the sort of "chaos" that is Hong Kong.

Like Ted Nugent, I personally associate liberty with God, guns and guts. :mrgreen: Private property being actually private; self-determination within the limits of my resources and abilities; raising my children according to my beliefs and standards.

Basically, doing what I darn well please as long as I'm not hurting anyone directly.

I don't hold with any sort of "prior restraint", as in "we're going to forbid you to own a gun because you might do something wrong with it". Punish people who actually harm others, don't repress the peaceable majority because of a few scumbags and nuts.

To me its the rightful ownership of property (any property), the rights to speak about it, and the right to protect the words I use. While that is very inward, its on par with the question.

WI Crippler said:

That's called living brother.

Click to expand...

When the Buddha arose from his meditations under the Bodhi Tree, he is reputed to have said "I am awake."

I am no Buddha; I merely say "I am alive". And free.

That is why we see people try to restrict the rights of law abiding citizens to own weapons. Because they fear what their fellow man might do with liberty. For them, they gladly deny all of society a liberty, because they value the notion of safety, over the notion of self determination.

Coincidentally, liberty may require the greatest sacrifice. Safety and comfort in the hands of the powerful, only requires that you sacrifice your liberty. Liberty, may well require you sacrifice your life. Some are willing to put their lives on the line, to secure their own liberty, and what I feel is an even more noble cause, to secure the liberty of others. Many are not, even those who might proclaim to be on the side of liberty, would go gently, or deliver their fellow man, into the arms of a tyrant when the moment of truth was upon them.[/QUOTE]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Great Post, Crippler!

Liberty, to me, is something that no one in today's world has. There is only relative liberty. Furthermore, in the places that have relatively higher liberty, most people have stopped fighting for its advancement in their own nation. This is why liberty is on the decline.

Liberty is a Bodice that we all should wear

I really can not define liberty, but I will be damed if I don't immediately know it when I don't have it.