Amen. Add grossly homophobic, and increasingly suppressing independent media.
"Reasonable" or "unreasonable" don't really apply here. They have made it their policy in recent years to smother the self-determination and independence of former Soviet states and to support the anti-American and authoritarian Assad regime. I consider those good enough reasons for us to oppose them.
Neither of these are actually relevant to whether or not Russia should be opposed.
"We" don't need to do that. Russia's already a sufficient boogieman on its own. There's a reason why all the former Warsaw Pact satellite states joined NATO when Moscow no longer had the ability to send tanks to stop them. Russia essentially claims the right to intervene in any state with a Russian minority - a terrifying prospect if you're Estonia, and a current reality if you're Ukraine, Moldova, or Georgia. We already have a sizable potential market of countries to whom Russian domination poses an existential threat.
Causality-wise, I would agree, since the Russians certainly don't like the fact that we've been pushing NATO closer to their border. I don't think, however, our actions with respect to Russia have been unjustifiably aggressive or hostile.
This was a gentleman's agreement made with Gorbachev, so it certainly had no legal obligation upon NATO after the Soviet Union collapsed. Moreover, the only reason it was agreed to in the first place was because Gorbachev had the ability to roll tanks into East Berlin and prevent German reunification if he chose to do so. Therefore, it has no legal or moral force and should play no role in our foreign policy decisions except as evidence for the already obvious fact that Russia opposes NATO's expansion.
Putin is pretty clearly a realist; I doubt he cares one way or another about American hypocrisy or "anti-Slavism."
You say..." poor relations with Russia" like it is a bad thing.
Causality-wise, I would agree, since the Russians certainly don't like the fact that we've been pushing NATO closer to their border. I don't think, however, our actions with respect to Russia have been unjustifiably aggressive or hostile.
This was a gentleman's agreement made with Gorbachev, so it certainly had no legal obligation upon NATO after the Soviet Union collapsed. Moreover, the only reason it was agreed to in the first place was because Gorbachev had the ability to roll tanks into East Berlin and prevent German reunification if he chose to do so. Therefore, it has no legal or moral force and should play no role in our foreign policy decisions except as evidence for the already obvious fact that Russia opposes NATO's expansion.
Putin is pretty clearly a realist; I doubt he cares one way or another about American hypocrisy or "anti-Slavism."
Well, I'll file this under the "because Russia" and now I will laugh in your face.
I beg to differ.It's like you're looking at a singular chess move while ignoring the 20 moves that were taken up to that point.
sensitive aren't we?
hmmm....someone thinks differently than you do, so therefore they deserve to have their face laughed in.
I wish I had all the answers to everything, like you THINK you do.
and feel all superior enough to laugh in all of their faces.
unfortunately for me, I am not that way and have learned to RESPECT the opinions of others who do not take my view. Even though I THINK they are wrong, or even if I KNOW they are wrong, I still keep my civility about me in the course of the discussion.
You see, unlike your type, I have the ability to acknowledge the fact I can actually be wrong from time-to-time.
Your type are frequently wrong, but they just never acknowledge it, and laugh superiorly in everyone's face who has a different point of view.
I would not trade places with you for all the money in the world. I like being human and having manners.
Simpleχity;1066196847 said:I beg to differ.
There are extensive threads right here in this Europe sub-forum that demonstrate/explain why US/European relations with Russia are far less than optimal.
The future of Ukraine (162 pages)
Ukraine (41 pages)
Crimea (24 pages)
Russia - Putin (100 pages)
Chechnya is the most blatant example of this, although I think Russia's actions there were somewhat legitimate. Ukraine, of course, faced invasion and destabilization once it tried to leave the Russian sphere of influence (and yes, sending special forces to occupy the regional parliament building of another country is unquestionably an invasion).Could you give an example of this happening?
They're an illiberal autocracy that is attempting to challenge American global hegemony. That second part is key: while there are many illiberal governments, friend and foe, in the world, most are not a significant challenge to the unipolar, liberal world order that I want to maintain.So why should they be opposed and what is the justification for doing so?
Mate, you're the one who thinks any negative perception of Russian foreign policy is manufactured by the US government in order to sell weapons.Also make sure your tin-foil hat is secured and you have spares.
How is allowing democratic countries to voluntarily join a defensive alliance restarting the Cold War? The reason Russia opposes NATO's expansion is because every NATO country is off-limits to Russian expansionism, not because NATO poses a threat to Russians themselves.Of course it has moral force because starting up the Cold War again is stupid.
The fact is that it should be no surprise to anyone, especially Russia, that the smaller, weaker states of central and eastern Europe, many of which have been historically oppressed or bullied by larger nations, have sought the safety of NATO. The Baltic, Romanian, Bulgarian, and Polish admissions to NATO are wholly expected given the circumstances. As typical however, Russia had preferred to merely remind everyone of the suffering inflicted on them by invading foreign powers while convienantly forgetting all the misery and oppression the Russian state itself had exported across all of Eastern Europe.
Chechnya is the most blatant example of this, although I think Russia's actions there were somewhat legitimate. Ukraine, of course, faced invasion and destabilization once it tried to leave the Russian sphere of influence (and yes, sending special forces to occupy the regional parliament building of another country is unquestionably an invasion).
They're an illiberal autocracy that is attempting to challenge American global hegemony. That second part is key: while there are many illiberal governments, friend and foe, in the world, most are not a significant challenge to the unipolar, liberal world order that I want to maintain.
Mate, you're the one who thinks any negative perception of Russian foreign policy is manufactured by the US government in order to sell weapons.
How is allowing democratic countries to voluntarily join a defensive alliance restarting the Cold War? The reason Russia opposes NATO's expansion is because every NATO country is off-limits to Russian expansionism, not because NATO poses a threat to Russians themselves.
You say..." poor relations with Russia" like it is a bad thing.
Well, I'll file this under the "because Russia" and now I will laugh in your face.
Hm, let me see here. RNS - like myself - remembers the Cold War firsthand, and likely has more than a few stories about just how serious a matter it was.
Then we look at Putin - who was a Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB during the Cold War. Gee, nothing to worry about there, huh?
RNS and I tend to butt heads on a lot of things - he's conservative and I'm liberal - but when it comes to Russia, we're both retired Navy and we both have a clue when it comes to whether Russia wants to be our friend. You, sir, don't have that clue. Russia ain't our friend, never has been, and - if you'll learn a bit about Russian history - will not be our friend for the remainder of our lifetimes. It would do well for you to remember Kissinger's maxim that nations don't have friends, nations have interests.
We don't have to be friends to have normalized relations.
We already have normalized relations. That doesn't mean we have to trust them in the least - especially when the GOP nominee for president invited them to "find" a former Secretary of State's emails and publish them - and NO, don't try to tell me that he was being sarcastic.
No, we don't have normalized relations with them. Right now, we are supporting sanctions against Russia, which any honest person would consider an act of war. I'm also not sure what we need to trust them for to have normal relations. Again, we have Turkey as a NATO ally, I don't trust them and they are worse than Russia, in almost every measure.
It would be way better then starting up proxy wars, like we had in Korea and Vietnam. That's what Obama, Hillary, and the rest of the globalists want, though. Stupid wars and conflicts at the expense of the normal people.
Hm, let me see here. RNS - like myself - remembers the Cold War firsthand, and likely has more than a few stories about just how serious a matter it was.
Then we look at Putin - who was a Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB during the Cold War. Gee, nothing to worry about there, huh?
RNS and I tend to butt heads on a lot of things - he's conservative and I'm liberal - but when it comes to Russia, we're both retired Navy and we both have a clue when it comes to whether Russia wants to be our friend. You, sir, don't have that clue. Russia ain't our friend, never has been, and - if you'll learn a bit about Russian history - will not be our friend for the remainder of our lifetimes. It would do well for you to remember Kissinger's maxim that nations don't have friends, nations have interests.
Well, if we're going into technicalities the Tzars were pretty friendly with the US in the 1800s.....
I suggest you rethink your propaganda.Furthermore, the overthrow in Ukraine was illegal and their Kiev government is illegitimate.
So do we kick Erdogan's Turkey out of our NATO alliance? .
Do we end our special relationship with Saudi Arabia? .
We have more in common with Russia than many of the nations we have relations with.
Simpleχity;1066200043 said:I suggest you rethink your propaganda.
Even Moscow recognizes the Presidential/Legislative elections of 2014 and the legitimacy of the Kyiv government with respective ambassadors, embassy, and consulates.
The UN also recognizes the legitimacy of the Kyiv government with Ukraine's seat in the General Assembly. Ukraine is also currently a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council.
No nation in the world (including Russia) recognizes the DNR 'People's Soviet' / LNR 'People's Soviet' as legitimate states.
We should be putting more pressure on him to be more democratic and to stop attempting to bring increasing religious influence into what is an officially secular state.
Morally, we should.
Speak for yourself. Ethically and ideologically I don't, and I started my life in Eastern Europe.
What are the reasons for poor relations with Russia?
That makes two posts now, of no value. Respect is earned, not freely given, and your post didn't deserve any.
It is YOU how demonstrated lack of respect in your very first post when you laughed in my face. Not real good in the people skills department, I can tell.
You lost any and all respect when you laughed in my face. You were the first to say and do that very DISRESPECTFUL thing.
That is NOT how you earn respect from anyone.
I can see from your very first post, you have no idea how to carry on a respectful conversation.
If you think laughing in a stranger's face is how to get respect, you have been living in a cave all your life.
...and the fact you think you did nothing wrong by doing it, only proves to me, you HAVE been living in a cave all your life, and have ZERO personal interactive skills.
No, we don't have normalized relations with them. Right now, we are supporting sanctions against Russia, which any honest person would consider an act of war. I'm also not sure what we need to trust them for to have normal relations. Again, we have Turkey as a NATO ally, I don't trust them and they are worse than Russia, in almost every measure.
It would be way better then starting up proxy wars, like we had in Korea and Vietnam. That's what Obama, Hillary, and the rest of the globalists want, though. Stupid wars and conflicts at the expense of the normal people.
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