Um, no, you missed the point on purpose, there exists a rationale that exists in the historical record as to why the US on a Federal level outlawed polygamy. You can ignore it if you are not arguing about it, but if you are arguing about it, you just look silly posting non sequiturs.
Polygamists practice monogamy? That is either dimensional travel.....or a misunderstanding of both terms.
Proof once again that you are ignoring the historical record.
If this was a legitimate point made by the government for outlawing polygamy, I have not missed it on purpose. If the idea that a fair number of breeding pairs must be preserved has already been covered, it's a new one to me. You stated that polygamy is an attack on monogamy. If there were any basis for that then you'd have to show that people would not be allowed to enter into monogamous relationships. If you cannot, then the idea of polygamy being "an attack" is just silly.
Well, fire away. What is "the historical record"?
In liberal bizarro world that post is irrelevant, but in a healthy, normal society, marriage is about creating AND raising a family.
I can't help the fact that you are arguing from a position of ignorance. I cannot force you to read Reynolds to understand the arguments made in outlawing polygamy in the US. Since you have not read it, your "accident" is posting on something you are not well versed on...while admitting to being ignorant these basic "new ones".
I'm not going to lead you to the water.
That's your side. Conservatism, on the other hand, is the last bastion of hope for peace and liberty.It's in a conservative bizarro world that facts, information, and reality don't exist, only partisanship, misrepresentations, and a total lack of understanding.
In liberal bizarro world that post is irrelevant, but in a healthy, normal society, marriage is about creating AND raising a family.
What are you talking about? It was perfectly acceptable in several cultures especially among the nobility. Granted we can use those examples to highlight the problems of breeding within a closed group. But still it shows your argument to be false.
One does not have to support a position to point out an untrue argument. For example I did not support Obama receiving the Nobel Peace Prize, but I pointed out the error of people arguing that he hadn't been in office long enough to earn it.
But it was still socially acceptable which counters your previous argument. Personally desirable and socially acceptable are two different things.
Go back to the previous threads on this. There was a link that showed that there is no "smell" of relatives. A father and daughter who never knew each other(mother got inseminated via a sperm bank) until she was well into her adulthood years could meet and be sexually attracted. There would be no smell that made them not attracted to each other. The incest taboo comes from having been together while the child(ren) grow. In India, where the child bride of an arranged marriage is sometimes sent to live with the child groom's family until the children are of legal age to marry, the children more often than not do not desire each other and react via the incest taboo.
And plenty of people are turned on by the concept of incest as well as are turned on by people who they are not aware of being related to. What's your point?
You can't cause genetic defects if the couple are same gendered or if one or both are sterile. Child abuse occurs regardless of whether incest is involved or not. Since the qualifier is consenting adults the child abuse issue is not part of the argument. Now the grooming idea put forth by Roguenuke would be since that encompasses the consenting adult part.
The standard changed to include interracial when no one thought it would ever happen. Then it changed to include same gendered couples. So why wouldn't it change to include incest and (to try to keep on the topic) polygamy?
As I pointed out before there is no messing with the gene pool if children are not produced. Birth control are highly effective, but I do concede not 100%. However, sex between same gendered couples and between couples where one or both are sterile ARE 100% effective in not producing offspring, risk of defect or not. Yet you would deny them as well. Not only that you would NOT deny a couple who have a HIGHER chance of producing a child with birth defects than any random incestuous couple. Quite hypocritical to me.
You kept this offshoot going. I said from the beginning I didn't want to thread jack and that I was just pointing out that your statement that you support the right of consenting adults to make their own decisions was simply not 100% true. Then I pointed out how the arguments that you were using were also used before on interracial marriage and SSM and are currently being used on polygamy, thus staying on topic.
Am I also supposed to be aware that homosexuals grow on trees?Where you aware that same sex couples can create and raise families?
If - and this is one huge hypothetical if that I will carry through for the rest of my post - polygamous marriages were allowed then polyandrous marriages would be as well (equal protection, male cannot be the only one to choose to take on more than one spouse). This opens a whole new range of complications, especially if it were legally defined as multiple individual marriages. We have male spouse A with 5 marriages and 5 wives, we have Female spouse B with 5 marriages (one wife and 4 husbands), female spouse C who has 5 husbands (one of which is also married to female D) ect. This is just one nightmare tangled web of marriages that could potentially increase exponentially until there is some crazy 6 degrees of separation issue - kind of like a pyramid scheme for marriages. Everyone is intermarried and households are completely muddied and blurred. There just would just be one huge tangle of interwoven chainmail-esque marriages - entire communities all intermarried, and potentially infighting (screw potentially - inevitably). There is no way to keep track of this and to deal with it.
In the one huge happy blanket marriage scenario we would have all current individuals under one umbrella marriage who would have to come to a consensus as to whether or not to take on a new spouse into this arrangement (contract). This would at least serve to encourage limits to the size of the marriages, but what is to stop one group, one organization, or one community to decide to have one monstrosity of a marriage that covers thousands of individuals? If there were to be multiple individuals allowed under one blanket marriage it would have to be unlimited as to how many this could be - how is it that it could be legally argued to instate some arbitrary upper limit on this without also encountering the counterpoint that if this is to be the case that the arbitrary upper limit should be set to 2 people?
If you are saying that you think incestual couples should be able to be married, then you are supporting it.
You go back to post #351 (I think). Roguenuke posted a very informative article about it. There is scientific evidence that even when people grow up separately, there is "something" that turns them off in a normal situation.
As mammals, human mothers nurse and care for their newborn infants, so seeing your own mother care for a newborn is a reliable cue that this baby is your sibling. Our data show that if you are older, and are present in the home when your biological mother is caring for a new baby, the mind tags that baby as a sibling—leading to high levels of altruism and sexual aversion toward that particular younger sibling, regardless of how long the two of you subsequently co-reside in the same household.
Pioneering archival studies by Arthur Wolf and others provided support for this view, by showing that the fertility rates were lower and divorce rates higher among Chinese marriages involving non-siblings raised together from childhood.
Perhaps, but if they found out? They would most likely be immediately disgusted. Because some things are just WRONG.
Child sex abuse is more common to happen by a child's own family member. THAT is a fact. I also mentioned the grooming idea. When abuse has happened for a child's whole life, this would carry over into adulthood too. They would be messed up people by then.
Straight, gay and any couples can be sterile. That is a pretty WEAK argument.
Look again. I pointed out your hypocritical statement on supporting the right of consenting adults to make choices by noting that you had made arguments counter to that statement. You said:YOU brought it up.
...I think consenting adults SHOULD be able to make their own choices regarding personal matters such as marriage and things like that.
Your ridiculous strawman arguments only serve to magnify the hopelessness of your case against SSM.
SSM will be legal because it is the right thing to do, because gays have PROVEN to be normal couples who happen to be the same sex. Many of us know them personally and they are just like you and I. Why this sham that they may not be recognized as such? Do you think polygamy and incest have the same standing in the community? No not hardly. That's why they are strawmen and have no bearing on SSM.
No one but the homophobic sees this as a sea change in the concept of marriage in any way. Just the opposite, gays have fought to be married and that can only strengthen the entire institution which is having a rocky time with heteros for a long time. They have been more interested in getting UN-married in record numbers.
What the hell are you talking about? At what point have I ever stated that I am against SSM? My uncle and one of my brothers are gay and I have bi-sexual siblings as well. I fully support the rights of ANY two consenting adults to get married. And if you had bothered to really read any of my posts in this thread (and others for that matter) you would see that I also support the right for any given number of people to enter into polygamous relationships while also noting that right now it would be a legal logistical nightmare to just "make it so".
On top of that there is not one statement in the entire quote post you responded to that shows ANY opposition to SSM.
And I can guarantee you sir that polygamy and polyamory do indeed hold standing within the LBGT communities because many of us polys are, surprise, LBGT. And both LBGT and polys also have a large overlap in the BDSM community also.
Sorry but I confused your post with all the others that are comparing polygamy and incest with SSM. Like I said there is no comparison and I'm afraid you have a long long way to go before "polys" will be accepted as normal or even tolerable. Don't confuse this ruling with anything resembling a breakdown of all marriage constraints.
That's your side. Conservatism, on the other hand, is the last bastion of hope for peace and liberty.
Am I also supposed to be aware that homosexuals grow on trees?
Sorry but I confused your post with all the others that are comparing polygamy and incest with SSM. Like I said there is no comparison and I'm afraid you have a long long way to go before "polys" will be accepted as normal or even tolerable. Don't confuse this ruling with anything resembling a breakdown of all marriage constraints.
There's no reason to. Only a bitter gay rights activist would ask such a thing.Then why do we not dissolve marriages that either cannot produce children or will not adopt?
Because gays don't have the "other half" component that kids need for effective parenting. At least polygamists have that.Furthermore, why can't gays adopt? Or get sperm/egg donors?
Same sex couples need to keep their business private. We'll stay out of their bedrooms if they will stay in them.Oh, so you don't know that same sex couples can create and raise families. Perhaps you should educate yourself on these issues before you choose to participate in them.
Polygyny has been accepted as normal and tolerable in very much of the past. Throughout most of the Old Testament, it was accepted. It has long been accepted, to this day, in many predominantly Muslim nations. It was accepted in the early Mormon settlements in Utah. There is plenty of historical and scriptural precedent for polgyny.
Homosexuality never has and never will be normal. We may “accept” it as a society, but it will always remain a sickness and an evil.
Of course homosexuality is normal.
It has been a part of the human race since the beginning. Polygamy is the result of male domination and female subjugation which is NEVER normal or acceptable in an enlightened society.
The very reason that SSM is being accepted today is that many of us know these gay couples and they are just like hetero couples except for being of the same sex.
Only the homophobic would see SSM as a huge change in the metrics of marriage.
No, it is not, it never had been, and it never will be. It is a sickness and an evil, an abomination against God and against nature. It is a sick mockery of the sexual union that God intended to bind a man and his wife in a sacred intimacy. No amount of so-called “enlightenment” will ever change this fundamental, unalterable truth.
My great-great grandfather, Edwin Rushton, would disagree with you, as would any who knew him and the society in which he lived.
Which entirely misses the point of marriage. That the two partners are of opposite sexes, each bringing into the relationship their respective parts, is an essential, defining part of marriage. Without that, what you have is not, and cannot ever be, a marriage.
Or anyone who actually understands and respects the value of marriage as an institution, and who does not wish to see it replaced with a sick mockery that undermines its true purpose. If that makes me “homophobic”, then so be it. I do not see it as a bad thing to be “phobic” about a blatant and destructive evil that threatens to undermine the very basis of the society in which I must live.
Of course homosexuality is normal. It has been a part of the human race since the beginning. Polygamy is the result of male domination and female subjugation which is NEVER normal or acceptable in an enlightened society. The very reason that SSM is being accepted today is that many of us know these gay couples and they are just like hetero couples except for being of the same sex. Only the homophobic would see SSM as a huge change in the metrics of marriage.
No, it is not, it never had been, and it never will be. It is a sickness and an evil, an abomination against God and against nature. It is a sick mockery of the sexual union that God intended to bind a man and his wife in a sacred intimacy. No amount of so-called “enlightenment” will ever change this fundamental, unalterable truth.
My great-great grandfather, Edwin Rushton, would disagree with you, as would any who knew him and the society in which he lived.
Which entirely misses the point of marriage. That the two partners are of opposite sexes, each bringing into the relationship their respective parts, is an essential, defining part of marriage. Without that, what you have is not, and cannot ever be, a marriage.
Or anyone who actually understands and respects the value of marriage as an institution, and who does not wish to see it replaced with a sick mockery that undermines its true purpose. If that makes me “homophobic”, then so be it. I do not see it as a bad thing to be “phobic” about a blatant and destructive evil that threatens to undermine the very basis of the society in which I must live.
Who made you God's spokesperson? I believe the biggest evil Jesus ever talked about was hatred. The words vomiting from your mouth are full of it. If homosexuals are so evil they will be oppressed in hell. Its not your business to oppress them on earth. Luckily in a few decades most of the people who think like you will be rotting in their graves, right alongside all the other bigots that have tried to oppress others in this country.No, it is not, it never had been, and it never will be. It is a sickness and an evil, an abomination against God and against nature. It is a sick mockery of the sexual union that God intended to bind a man and his wife in a sacred intimacy. No amount of so-called “enlightenment” will ever change this fundamental, unalterable truth.
Same sex couples need to keep their business private. We'll stay out of their bedrooms if they will stay in them.
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